Author Topic: Ischia vs. Camaldoli  (Read 1552 times)

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Offline mamerthemario

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Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« on: February 27, 2014, 04:16:38 PM »
So, a lot of us seem to have ordered the Italian package @ Ed Wood's sourdo website.  I'm wondering:

Which do you guys prefer?  I hear a lot about Ischia on this site, and not as much about camaldoli.  Is Ischia prefered for making pizza?  Why?


Offline anverc

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 04:18:16 PM »
I recently lost track of which jar was which flavor :(
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Offline jsaras

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 05:51:43 PM »
I'm not even close to being an authority on starters.  However, my experience with activating the Ischia culture was problematic to the point where I had to get rid of it completely.   In spite of  several "washings" and feeding it twice a day for a month and even giving it a bit of pineapple juice and using rye flour, it never had the appropriate rise after feedings and it always had a very foul vinegar odor. 

I opened up the Camaldoli and it "behaved" perfectly very shortly after activation.  The nose is extremely mild.  It basically smells like wet flour to me.

You'll probably get a response that's the inverse of mine.  Working with starters is like herding cats!
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2014, 10:57:34 PM »
So, a lot of us seem to have ordered the Italian package @ Ed Wood's sourdo website.  I'm wondering:

Which do you guys prefer?  I hear a lot about Ischia on this site, and not as much about camaldoli.  Is Ischia prefered for making pizza?  Why?

My guess is that Ischia is "preferred" because that is the direction the river happened to flow early on and most people simply jumped in. I suspect if the Italian culture from sourdo.com included only the Camaldoli, people would be perfectly happy with the results.

A former member who probably knew more about the subtitles different cultures than anyone else spoke highly of Camaldoli before his died in a tragic accident.
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Offline breffni

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2014, 02:35:44 PM »
Far from an expert, but my brief experiences:
Activated Ischia, Camaldoli, and Carl's 1847 Oregon Trail, split them and had 2 jars of each in case one failed.

Originally figured I would use Ischia for Neapolitan dough, Camaldoli for NY dough, and Carl's for breads...don't know why I thought that, probably guessed incorrectly that would use a larger amount of starter than end up actually needing so wanted to have enough.

Eventually tossed the Carl's, too tangy/strong for my taste.

For some reason still keeping Camaldoli active, but rarely use it. Does have a nice subtle flavor, but find it less active/powerful than Ischia.

Ischia has proven to be just right - subtle, not overpowering flavor and excellent rise be it Neapolitan, NY or Detroit dough or breads/baking.  Also seems to become active faster than Calmaldoli, i.e. when both have been stored for the same amount of time in a 40 degree refrigerator and taken out together, using the same process on both to reactivate, Ischia will blow the top off the lid after 2-3 feedings, while Camaldoli lags behind.

Clearly not up on my baking and science terminologies, but Ischia has worked best for me.

Offline mbrulato

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2014, 04:04:45 PM »
I have not activated the Camaldoli yet.  However, I usually use Ischia once a week, but haven't for the last three weeks.

This morning I removed Ischia from the refrigerator and fed both jars at 11.  After 5 hours, this is what it looks like.  It usually grows that much in 2 hours after feeding.  So it will probably require another feeding before I use it.

I just wanted to illustrate what a beast Ischia is  :-D
Mary Ann

Offline Roman

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2014, 03:59:30 PM »
Mary Ann,

Why would you feed it again before using? I've used it after the initial feeding to skim some of the very active Ischia, then place back in frig.

Roman

Offline anverc

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2014, 04:12:49 PM »
Why would you feed it again before using? I've used it after the initial feeding to skim some of the very active Ischia, then place back in frig.

I've always had the best luck when the starter hits the top after only 2-3 hours - i'm guessing that's what Mary Ann is waiting for.
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Offline mbrulato

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2014, 04:19:40 PM »
I've always had the best luck when the starter hits the top after only 2-3 hours - i'm guessing that's what Mary Ann is waiting for.

That's right, Anverc. 

As I mentioned in my earlier post Roman, I usually get that same growth in a more narrow window of time, around 2 hours.  I would feed it again to make sure it's good and active for a 48 hour dough.  This has been my experience with my Ischia.  Individual results may vary.
Mary Ann


Offline Donjo911

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2014, 04:20:15 PM »
Mary Ann,
Weather Channel reports that it may be close to 30* or so in NJ today, I'm curious about your estimated home temperature.  My local home grown starter does not get beastly as yours  :(. I was planning to buy a reptile heating pad as suggested by another member this weekend and use a cooler to maintain a consistent temp like a proofing box but for starter (as TXCraig has documented and provided models to that end) as I received 3 starters from Sourdough.com and want to be sure each initiates its activation successfully.  With similar outdoor temps and about 60* in the house average daily - I'm curious about your results with respect to temperature in the home as you've kept your Ischia on the counter after feeding. Thanks in advance.
Don
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Offline mbrulato

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2014, 04:35:42 PM »
Don,

Room temperature in my kitchen is between 68 - 70 degrees.  This is where I keep the Ischia when I've fed it and am waiting for it to become active.  Once active, I use what I need and put it back in the fridge until the next time. 

When I initially activated it, I put the jar in the oven with the light on.  Still being new to some of the features on my oven, I didn't realize that my oven light does stay on all night as long as you don't open the door.  Thank goodness I did open the door before I went to bed.  If the light stayed on, I would've cooked Ischia for sure.  I did not buy a proofing box, or a heating pad, nor did I make a DIY proofing box as suggested by Ed Wood.  All turned out ok and I have a nice starter that I can use whenever I want usually with one feeding.  Upon activation, I split the starter and now keep 2 jars of Ischia in the fridge.

There are some members who keep their starters on the counter permanently and store at room temperature.  I believe TxCraig1 does this and you see the stunningly beautiful NP pies he turns out?  You just have to learn the quirks of these yeasty beasties...

I hope I've sufficiently answered your questions.
Mary Ann

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2014, 04:57:41 PM »
Thanks Mary Ann!
Very helpful.  The home temp vs. proofing box temp was what I was after as it seems like 68* is optimal.  I just didn't want to start with an inhospitable environment. Also, I was reading a post from Craig that discussed two identical strains that are fed the same food/amounts but one changed. It was thinking that temp may have been the reason and subsequently the impetus for his starter calculator. Seems like Ill be safe trying one - probably the Camaldoli - and see how that works first before I start the SF and Ischia.  Many thanks!!
Don
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Online norma427

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2014, 05:34:53 PM »

The home temp vs. proofing box temp was what I was after as it seems like 68* is optimal.
Don


Don,

When I activated my starters at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11578.msg106188#msg106188  You can see the temperature in my homemade proofing box was 85 degrees F.  This is the homemade proofing box I used at Reply 257 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11044.msg102195#msg102195

Norma
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Offline Donjo911

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2014, 06:30:39 PM »
Norma,
Thanks for reaching out and for including your activation methods and equipment.  It's too bad it's not summer as I do like the idea of using a styrofoam cooler as you have. (Nice work rigging that up!) I do have a very large plastic Coleman beer cooler/bench. However, my wife may take issue with it taking up the space that it does in the house  ::). She would not be cool with my, "think of it as extra seating in the kitchen" excuse!
Also, I have to look through all of your post/process as I don't want to risk melting the foam cooler and or baking the starter as Mary Ann mentioned could have happened if the oven light did not have a 'safety' off mechanism. I may look to incorporate the heating pad for reptiles into a styrofoam cooler if I can find one. Thank you as well for the specifics on your tested 85* temp for growing the little beasties! 
Cheers,
Don
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 06:33:58 PM by Donjo911 »
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Offline anverc

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2014, 06:45:06 PM »
Don, if you have about $50 (not sure what the reptile pads cost), you can get yourself a full temperature PID. The one in the picture i made last weekend.  The blue dot comes on when the temp needs to go down, the red dot comes on when the temp needs to go up, and grey is always on.  you could use this now with a lamp to make a proof box, and down the road you could use it with a small dorm fridge to do temp specific ferments!  Heck, you could even use it to Sous Vide, your wife will really like these eggs http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30650.new#new

overall a lot more useful than just a reptile pad
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 07:21:24 PM by anverc »
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Offline Donjo911

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2014, 06:53:51 PM »
Anvers, thanks for your reply. Great work! You kill me: Part time programmer for fun, electrician for fun, pizza maker for fun! You have great fun ;D
I love that idea. I'm unfamiliar with the temp controller on the left with LCD. Is that a household thermo or some super modified Arduino controller you programmed!? I'd love to know more and or the post you have already made? Looks similar to something I read perhaps here in a sous vide thread...other possible use with a regulator?? Many thanks for your help and suggestions!
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Offline anverc

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2014, 07:09:40 PM »
Anvers, thanks for your reply. Great work! You kill me: Part time programmer for fun, electrician for fun, pizza maker for fun! You have great fun ;D
I love that idea. I'm unfamiliar with the temp controller on the left with LCD. Is that a household thermo or some super modified Arduino controller you programmed!? I'd love to know more and or the post you have already made? Looks similar to something I read perhaps here in a sous vide thread...other possible use with a regulator?? Many thanks for your help and suggestions!

there's a post somewhere on here and a link to a beer making forum with instructions on how to make one.  I'll do some searching this weekend and make a new thread if we don't have one, they're really easy to put together. 

the LCD thing is something that you need to buy on ebay, it's going to cost around $20.   STC-1000 110V is what you are looking for. Mine was 23 free shipping ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-STC-1000-All-Purpose-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat-Aquarium-w-Sensor-/140756919030?ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1120 ).  From home depot:
  • 4 slot old-work style box
  • cheap grounded 15A cord, for replacement of small appliance or something
  • a few feet of 15A wire or romex (14 gauge i think - i had some left over from rewiring my house, which i did for fun ;))
  • 3 receptacles (i put an outdoor GFCI as my always on, for safety, i'm not sure if it actually makes it safer)
  • a face plate
  • probably not totally required, but a 3/4" romex connector and a 3/4" drill bit is useful for holding the poewr cord tight on the box.

you can use this with a non-digital crockpot or non-digital hot plate to sous-vide.  if you add a air line and cheap fish tank pump it will even circulate the water for you really well (you connect this to always on). 

i use it with my keg-o-rater to proof at 65F right now.  what a great use for that thing :/

you could use it to make a box warm, with a lamp and the hot side.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 07:16:05 PM by anverc »
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Online norma427

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2014, 08:00:21 PM »
anverc,

Maybe it was Steve's (Ev) posts you were thinking about at Reply 412 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15521.msg234798#msg234798 or at Reply 14 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18509.msg267849#msg267849 

and reply 17 where he posted about the beer forum. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18509.msg268034#msg268034   

Norma
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 08:05:12 PM by norma427 »
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Offline anverc

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2014, 08:13:05 PM »
anverc,

Maybe it was Steve's (Ev) posts you were thinking about at Reply 412 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15521.msg234798#msg234798 or at Reply 14 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18509.msg267849#msg267849 

and reply 17 where he posted about the beer forum. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18509.msg268034#msg268034   

Norma

those are the ones, thanks norma!
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Offline Donjo911

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2014, 08:31:49 PM »
Thanks Norma!!
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Offline Donjo911

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Re: Ischia vs. Camaldoli
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2014, 08:37:40 PM »
Anverc,
Thanks for all the detail. I will look online tonite to see what I can find. Your direction is appreciated. I'll also read the posts you and Norma have provided. Lots of fun for the weekend!  Now, after preheating the steel and soapstone (I know...but it was in there when I turned the oven on-plus I can check the temp on both but have a feeling that Steve123 was right about steel over Sstone) it's time to make pizza!!!  :pizza:  :chef: My first steel pics to be posted on "1st pics on steele thread."
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