Author Topic: Flour Selection Help  (Read 3854 times)

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Offline wahoo88

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Flour Selection Help
« on: November 26, 2013, 03:24:02 PM »
Hey, I'm looking to buy a 50# bag of flour that I can use for home-oven NY style and for general artisan bread baking.  My local supplier who does cash and carry offers these flours.  I've deleted irrelevant ones from the list (ie. Caputo, pastry).  I've been using KABF and can't get the gluten development that I want.


FLOUR ALL TRUMP HI GLUTEN ENR/BL/BRO 1/50#
FLOUR BALANCER HI GLUTEN
FLOUR BEST BAKERS
FLOUR HARVEST KING ENRICHED/UNBLEACHED 1/50#
FLOUR HI-POWER ENR/BRO 50#
FLOUR HI/GLUT ALL TRUMP ENRICH/UNBL/UNBRO 1/50#
FLOUR SIR GALAHAD 1/50# S/O
FLOUR SIR LANCELOT 1/50#
FLOUR SO STRONG SPEC HG BL/BR/MT/E 1/50#

It looks like my choices come down to these, choosing one from each category.  I don't have any fear of KBrO3, if you were wondering.

Additives: unbleached and umbromated, bromated and bleached
Protein: ~13.0%, ~14.0%, ~14.5%

I'm sure Scott will toss the ~14.5% flours immediately, but if no mid 13%s flour is available, which end of the spectrum is it better to go to?  Why does KA market Sir Galahad as artisan/pizza flour with a protein percentage of 11.7? Am I missing something?

Dan




Online scott123

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2013, 04:19:42 PM »
For NY, the unequivocal answer is bromated/bleached best bakers (12.9% protein).

Here is what Mary Ann is doing with it:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27552.msg282262.html#msg282262


Offline mbrulato

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2013, 04:46:29 PM »
Dan,

From that list, I've only used KASL and Best Bakers.  You're right about the HG flour, unless you are making bagels or pretzels, don't get the KASL.  I have successfully used Best Bakers flour for the past two months for my NY style, Sicilian and pan pizzas, as well as for Ciabatta bread.  I like the way it handles and I will definitely buy another 50# bag when this is finished.

Couple NY pies http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.140

Sicilian pie http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26286.msg284745.html#msg284745

Ciabatta http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26375.msg280362.html#msg280362

This link might help you decide based upon your geographic location http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/flour/category/pizza

Hope this helps.

Mary Ann

Edit:  I took too long to type this and Scott posted the same flour as me  ;)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 04:48:24 PM by mbrulato »
Mary Ann

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2013, 04:55:51 PM »
This is all I can really contribute right now:

FLOUR ALL TRUMP HI GLUTEN ENR/BL/BRO 1/50#
FLOUR BALANCER HI GLUTEN
FLOUR BEST BAKERS
FLOUR HARVEST KING ENRICHED/UNBLEACHED 1/50#
FLOUR HI-POWER ENR/BRO 50#
FLOUR HI/GLUT ALL TRUMP ENRICH/UNBL/UNBRO 1/50#
FLOUR SIR GALAHAD 1/50# S/O
FLOUR SIR LANCELOT 1/50#
FLOUR SO STRONG SPEC HG BL/BR/MT/E 1/50#

I think the two I altered are the only ones I've used. Unbromated All Trumps sucks. Even if bromated All Trumps isn't the best on the list, it's still very good. I'm actually looking to try one (or more) of the flours on Scott's list soon, but I would have no problem serving paying customers pizza with crust made of All Trumps bromated. I'd also be very inclined not to use any King Arthur flour.

Offline wahoo88

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2013, 10:30:05 PM »
Scott, thanks for the recommendation. I'm sure you've answered this elsewhere, but even if I only hand-knead my dough, is AT's 'kneading window' too narrow for practicality?  I'm just afraid that the Best Bakers will not give me any chewier or springier crust than the KABF.  Are you counting on the bromate to accomplish this?

Mary Ann, I'm glad to see the wide range of pizzas and bread that you've made with the Best Bakers.  On that General Mills link, there is a flour, Remarkable, that says it is available on the East Coast.  It is a bromated/bleached 13.6% protein flour that sounds about perfect for my needs, but I haven't found anyone in Maryland selling it.

Ryan, everyone's opinion surrounding AT (bromated) seems to be slightly different.  Some swear by it, Scott avoids it at all costs, and people like you see it as a decently good flour.  Given the fact that I'll be making some sicilian too, I'd be inclined to go with the lower protein.

Online scott123

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2013, 11:04:20 PM »
Dan, Best Bakers can do anything All Trumps can do with the exception of super chewy breads like bagels.  There's a big overlap, with Best Bakers omitting the extreme chewy end of the spectrum.

If you want chewy pizza, though, you can get it with Best Bakers. You just can't make shoe leather with it like you can AT.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 11:09:29 PM by scott123 »

Offline norcoscia

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 07:46:55 AM »
Hi, I was thinking about mail ordering some Pillsbury Best Bakers flour (since I live in CA) - I tried searching for an online store that would mail order but I'm having a hard time finding anything.

I know the shipping will hurt but I don't really have a choice if I want to try it - I'm thinking about getting a 50lb bag (that will last me a very long time) - I trust the recommendations of the people on this board so not worried about spending a bit more and not being happy. If I need to pay the shipping I'm thinking doing it once with a 50lb bag will be my best bet to lower the price per pound.

If that is impossible can anyone recommend a good second choice I could order (and have delivered to a CA address), thanks in advance for any help with this ???

Offline wahoo88

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 08:29:36 AM »
Hopefully Scott will see this, but perhaps Pendleton Flour's "Power Flour" or "Mondako" would work.  Pendleton's website doesn't provide much information, though I'm sure that the people here know the specs of the flour.

You can see my experiment of KABF vs. Best Bakers here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29173.msg293106.html

I like the Best Bakers so far but have yet to make pizza with it.

Good luck.

Online scott123

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 10:54:21 AM »
Norcoscia, I generally dissuade people from purchasing mail order flour.  Combine the already somewhat limited demand for highly specialized flour with cost prohibitive shipping charges and you're looking at a very high likelihood for low turnover, putting the freshness of the flour in question. Flour, if stored well, can last for quite some time, but I'm still not a fan of ordering a flour with questionable turnover.

That being said, if you are really motivated to work with better flour, and are okay with both the shipping costs and the possibility for old flour, then you can make your life a bit easier by widening your search a bit to include comparable flours.

It's helpful to look at flours from a protein content/additive perspective rather than by brand.  When I recommended best bakers to Mary Ann (mbrulato), I had never used it, nor had any member that I was aware of.  I recommended it because it was in the perfect range of protein for NY style pizza and because it contained bromate, a known volume enhancer.  You're going to see slight changes from brand to brand, but, overally, one 13% protein bromated flour will be just as good as another 13% protein bromated flour. Instead of searching for mail order best bakers you can improve your chances by looking for any flour with the best bakers specs.  These include:

Full Strength
Spring King
Occident
Pillsbury xxxx patent flour
Best Bakers
King Midas Special
Superlative
Commander
Majestic
Springup
Perfect Diamond (I think this is 12.5%ish, but not sure)

Whatever you purchase, make sure it's the bleached/bromated version, as many flours come bleached/bromated and unbleached/unbromated.

For instance, Chicago Bob posted a link to an outfit that offers mail order Full Strength.

http://shop.grainmill.coop/general-mills-gm-full-strength-flour-50lb.html

Full Strength will give you comparable results to Best Bakers.  I calculated the shipping to NJ and it's $20, making it $50 for a 50 lb. bag ($1/lb).  Considering I can buy Full Strength for 35 cents/lb locally, that kind of hurts, but if you're in CA, and, chomping at the bit for the best flour you can find for NY style, you could do worse.

Dan does make a good point regarding Pendleton flours.  The Pendleton flours aren't bromated, but they're solid performers for those that can't get bromated flour. Power Flour, at 13.5% is a little higher than the 'happy' 13% protein best bakers place, but, it's still lower than the, imo, too high 14% flours (All Trumps, KASL), and should work well with some extra care.  The power flour can also be blended with the weaker mondako.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 10:56:24 AM by scott123 »

Offline weemis

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2013, 11:48:34 AM »
Hi, I was thinking about mail ordering some Pillsbury Best Bakers flour (since I live in CA) - I tried searching for an online store that would mail order but I'm having a hard time finding anything.

You could try and contact the company and get some free samples. General mills sent me a hundred pounds of flour free last year when I was exploring my flour options for a mobile WFO business. I talked to them at a pizza trade show, and they are probably more willing to accommodate folks in that environment, but you could certainly try. If you tell em you're in the starting phase of a pizza business or something the likes, they'll probably be more inclined to send you free things. Also, if you can get to a trade show, they love giving things away there.

just a thought.
Nick Gore - just a dough eyed wanderer


Offline norcoscia

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2013, 07:13:50 AM »
Thanks guys, that all makes sense - I think I'll try the GM Full and see what happens - the other day I joined KSBC so I should be able to finally get into the RD by my house - Can't wait to mess around with some different "non-consumer" products.

I have been happy with the sauce components and pepperoni I can get my hands on but the really good mozzarella cheese has been a problem tracking down in SoCal.

I have been mixing in about 30% provolone to help with the flavor and boy, anything beyond very mild provolone hurts more than it helps, IMHO.

Thanks again and have a good weekend!

Online scott123

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2013, 10:13:20 AM »
Norcoscia, you won't find bromated Full Strength (or any bromated flour) at your local RD and, while some people seem to enjoy working with them, the evidence seems to point strongly towards unbromated versions of typically bromated flours (unbromated All Trumps, unbromated Full Strength) being inferior to brands that only make unbromated flours, such as Pendleton.

Pendleton's a big seller on the left coast.  There should be a good chance your RD should have power flour.  That's what I'd pick up.

RD should also carry Saputo mozzarella, which you should definitely try.

Offline norcoscia

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 10:28:32 AM »
Hi scott123, I didn't mean to imply I'd find bromated flour at the local RD (or anywhere in CA) - I was really just talking about what they might have in the way of cheese and other ingredients. I plan to buy the flour mail order, wish I could find a source selling 10 or 20 lbs bags with reasonable shipping (vice 50lbs) but the shipping costs are so close it seems like the smart move may be the 50 lb bag.

Online scott123

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2013, 03:40:45 PM »
Norcoscia, sorry, I misunderstood you.

I did a little digging. It seems like most of the flours on my list are only available in 50 lb. bags, with the exception of Occident and Superlative. Superlative comes in 25 lb. bags, but I can't find any online sources. Occident comes in an unbleached bromated 25 lb version, which from what I seen, is fairly uncommon. It's especially strange, since the far more popular bleached/bromated or unbleached/unbromated versions are nowhere to be found in this size.

Anyway, I don't think it's a big deal that the flour is unbleached.  Bromated is what really matters for pizza.  Occident, at 12.2% protein, has a little less protein than what I consider ideal, but I think you can up the kneading a bit and you'll be fine.  I found one online source that, for shipping to NJ, came to a total of $28 for a 25 lb. bag.

http://www.allbulkfoods.com/product_info.php/products_id/144027

You might want to contact this company and confirm that the flour is bromated since unbleached/bromated is such an uncommon combo. If you ended up receiving unbleached/unbromated, that would be disappointing.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 03:43:56 PM by scott123 »

Offline norcoscia

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2013, 07:20:23 AM »
Thanks Scott123 - I may just go for the GM Full Strength 50lb bag and get it over with - I noticed they sell that as well - I was wondering, have you ordered from this company before. I usually stick with Amazon because they are good about fixing any issues but they do not carry Full Strength right now.

Offline andyt

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2014, 11:01:59 AM »
I will be in Milford and West Haven CT next week.  Can anyone direct me to a supplier of the full strength flours on Scott 123"s list.  Thanks.

andyt

Offline caymus

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2014, 12:19:52 PM »
I will be in Milford and West Haven CT next week.  Can anyone direct me to a supplier of the full strength flours on Scott 123"s list.  Thanks.

andyt

Are you driving from Canada? If you are, Sweet Life Cash and Carry in Springfield MA sells GM Full Strength and All Trumps.  You would pass nearby if you use the turnpike/ US 91 route from the north.

Regards

Offline deb415611

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2014, 12:49:51 PM »
I will be in Milford and West Haven CT next week.  Can anyone direct me to a supplier of the full strength flours on Scott 123"s list.  Thanks.

andyt


napoli foods in Cheshire has cash & carry http://www.napolifoodsinc.com/products.html
thurston foods in wallingford  has it but not sure if they do cash & carry   http://www.thurstonfoods.com/?page_id=2

this company does cash & carry and has the Spring King flour, I don't remember what other ones they carry , they don't have a website
 A Fiorillo
396 Clark Street
Milldale, CT 06467
860.628.0358

Napoli Foods and A Fiorillo are only a few miles apart from each other and right off route 84, exit 28

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2014, 12:51:56 PM »
@Scott123

I was told in an email from a company rep. that Occident is 12.4% protein. Don't know if different versions (bleached, unbleached, bromated, unbromated) vary any, but the version I get is unbleached, bromated and that is what they told me was 12.4%.

Offline bbqchuck

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Re: Flour Selection Help
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2014, 05:44:59 PM »
Norcoscia,
I have purchased from Chef's Warehouse in the City of Industry.16633 EAST GALE AVENUE CITY OF INDUSTRY CA 91745
TEL: 626-465-4200.  They are off of the 60 freeway, east of the 605 two exits.  I bought some Sir Lancelot and Caputo blue bag Pizzaria flours from them on two separate occasions.  They will deal with the public.  Call in your order.  Bring a credit card.

As a rough idea of costs, the KASL and Caputo were both under $40 as I recall.   

If you want to see exactly what the City of Industry location stocks, go to this website.   http://www.chefswarehouse.com/
Then click "Product Catalogs" in the lower left of the main page, then click Regional Product Catalogs near the bottom of the page.

I've made some pretty decent artisan French style breads by blending KASL (14%) with Caputo Pizzaria (12 1/2%).


These are the flours that this warehouse stocks.
VN160532 ALL PURPOSE FLOUR MEDALION 50 LB BAG
1000312 BUCKWHEAT FLOUR 1/10 LB
VN160711 BUCKWHEAT FLOUR 50 LB 50 LB BAG
GF297A CAPUTO 00 FLOUR EXTRA BLUE 1/25 KG
GF296A CAPUTO 00 FLOUR RED RINFORZATO 1/25 KG
GF299 CAPUTO 00 PASTA FRESCA FLOUR 1/25 KG
GF234A CAPUTO 00 PIZZA FLOUR ATTIMO 10/1 KG
GF234 CAPUTO 00 PIZZA FLOUR BLUE 1/25 KG
77844 CAPUTO GLUTEN FREE FLOUR 1/5 KG
109936 CHIC PEA FLOUR GARBANZO 40 LBS 1/40 LB
933206 CHIC PEA FLOUR GIUSTOS 1/25 LB
VN160820 FLOUR HARVEST KING ENR.UNBLCHD 50 LB BAG
VN160438 FLOUR PASTRY UNBL FLAKTEX 50 LB BAG
921231 FLOUR RYE DARK ORGANIC 25 LBS 25LBS
926459 FLOUR RYE WHITE ORGANIC 50 LBS 50 LBS
921232 FLOUR ULTIMATE PERF ORGANIC 50 LBS
VN185105 GIUSTO ALL PURPOSE ENRICHED 50 LB BAG
VN185711 GIUSTO ARTISAN FLOUR UNBLEACH 50 LB BAG
VN616012 GIUSTO BLEACHED HI RATIO CAKE 50 LB BAG
922302 GIUSTO BUCKWHEAT FLOUR ORGANIC 25 LB BAG
VN616009 GIUSTO HI PERFORMER UNBLEACHED 50 LB BAG
VN185709 GIUSTO HI-PROTEIN FINE ORGANIC 1/50LB
923919 GIUSTO LA PARISIENNE FLOUR 50 LB BAG
VN185715 GIUSTO OAT BRAN ORGANIC 1/50 LB
VN185712 GIUSTO OLD MILL ORGANIC 1/50LB UNBL
VN185720 GIUSTO PASTRY FLOUR ORGANIC 25 LB
VN185719 GIUSTO SEMOLINA FLOUR 50 LB 50 LB
VN185708 GIUSTO SPELT ORGANIC FLOUR 1/25LB
VN185106 GIUSTO UNBL KEITHS BEST FLOUR 50 LB BAG
VN185704 GIUSTO UNBL PEAK PERFM FLOUR 50 LB BAG
VN185716 GIUSTO WHEAT BRAN HI-FIBER ORG 1/25 LB OR
76937 GIUSTOS ALL FAMILY ORG.UNBLEA 1/ 25 LBS
922428 GIUSTOS ALL FAMILY ORGANIC 50 LB BAG
VN185723 GIUSTOS BAKERS CHOICE ORGANIC 50 LB BAG
EI802532 GIUSTOS FLOUR, ORGANIC 00 1/50 LB
923807 GIUSTOS ORGANIC CORN FLOUR 1/25 LB
927038 GIUSTOS PIZZA FLOUR OO 50 LB BAG
922697 GIUSTOS SNOWFLAKE FLOUR WW 50 LB BAG
921284 GIUSTOS W WHEAT ORGANIC MEDIUM 50 LBS
100553 GUISTOS FINE YELLOW CORN MEAL 1/50 LB
76715 HAZELNUT FLOUR NATURAL 2/5 LBS CS
76985 IMPERIAL BAKERS FLOUR UNBLEACH 1/50 LBS
76361 KA ORGA. ARTISAN SELECT FLOUR 1/50 LBS
76364 KA ORGANIC BIG O FLOUR 1/50 LBS
76366 KA ORGANIC WHITE WHOLE WHEAT 1/50 LBS
76365 KA ORGANIC WHOLE WHEAT FLOUR 1/50 LBS
922315 KA QUEEN GUINEVERE FLOUR 50 LB BAG
GF298 KA SIR GALAHAD FLOUR (OU) 50 LB BAG-ALL
GF264 KA SIR LANCELOT FLOUR 50LB(OU) 50 LB BAG
GF262 KA SPECIAL FLOUR 50LB (OU) 50LB BAG -
VN160245 KING KAISER HI GLUTEN FLOUR 50 LB BAG
VN160900 MONDAKO FLOUR #100860 @ 50 LB BAG
82187 QUINOA BLACK 1/10 LB
GF265 QUINOA ORGANIC GRAIN 25 LB BAG
VN160656 RICE FLOUR 25# BULK TEXAR A-1 25 LB BAG
GF295 SEMOLINA FLOUR 50 LB BAG
GF247 SOFTASILK”PURASNOW”FLOUR GMILL 50 LB BAG
VN160817 SPERRY CAKE & PASTRY FLOUR 50 LB BAG
926775 SPERRY ORGANIC BREAD FLOUR 50 LB BAG
VN16011 SPERRY XT FANCY DURUM FLOUR 50 LB BAG
109305 SPIGADORO PIZZA FLOUR 00 VIVA 1/25 KG
109306 SPIGADORO PIZZA FLOUR ENRICHED 1/25 KG
GF246 WHOLE WHEAT FLOUR FINE 50 LB BAG
GF255 WONDRA FLOUR 50 LB BAG
109906 WONDRA POUR N SHAKE 6/13.5 OZ
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 05:50:59 PM by bbqchuck »


 

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