Author Topic: How should I used Buzz's dough recipe for a 16 inch Chicago-style pizza?  (Read 2047 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline UGAChemDawg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • I Love Pizza!
Hello,

I want to make a deep dish pizza using buzz's dough recipe that I've used for 9 inch pizzas before, as in this thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2523.0.html

However, the only thing available where I am is a 16 inch deep dish pizza pan, so that's the size I'm going to make.

For this dough recipe, is it ok if I just scale all the ingredients (flour, salt, sugar, oils, etc) based on the area of the pan (I haven't done the math yet, but if it turns out, for example, that a 16 inch pie has a surface area 3 times greater than a 9 inch pie, can I just multiply everything in the recipe by 3)? What is the recommended cooking temperature and time for a pie this size?

Also, what sauce would you recommend? I want a sauce that is relatively easy to make and is better than the canned spaghetti sauce that I've been using, but I don't want to have to squeeze the tomatos myself or anything. Preferably something I can make by adding various spices to tomato sauce/paste.

Thanks,

Mike 


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21905
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Mike,

Buzz has more than one deep-dish dough recipe. Can you tell me which specific one you want to use?

Since you will be working with volumes, you will have to do a certain amount of what you want to achieve by feel. However, if you can tell me the depths of the 9" and 16" pans, and how far up the sides of the pans the doughs go (in each case), I may be able to give you a general idea as to the relative proportioning. If you want to take a cut at what you feel that proportioning should be, I'd be happy to review your calculations. I assume that when you made the dough for the 9" pie you used all of the dough from the recipe for that pie, and also that both pans are straight sided. Are these assumptions correct?

Once you provide answers to the above questions, I also have some ideas as to how you might want to proceed. Do you have a scale by any chance?

I will leave to others the matter of proper bake temperature and times and suitable tomatoes to use for your purposes.

Peter

Offline gottabedapan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 166
  • I Love Pizza!
First choice for tomatoes: Escalon 6-in-1.
Second choice for tomatoes: Escalon 6-in-1.
Third choice for tomatoes: Escalon 6-in-1.
Fourth choice for tomatoes: Escalon 6-in-1. (Are you senseing a pattern here?)

If you absolutely, positively can't find 6-in-1 or you're on a tight budget, try Wal-Mart (that's right, Wal-Mart!) Great Value Crushed Tomatoes in Puree (see this thread) or Muir Glen Organic Tomatoes (either Crushed or Fire-Roasted Crushed) Tomatoes. Unlike the 6-in-1, you'll have to drain both the Wal-Mart and Glen Muir, though. In terms of taste and texture, I actually prefer the Wal-Mart to the Muir Glen. As Randy notes, they're very close to 6-in-1; plus, at $0.88 for a 28 oz. can, they're less than half the cost of the Muir Glen.

Cooking time: 25-30 min. @ 450 F ought to get you close. YMMV based on the idiosyncrasies of your oven.

Offline UGAChemDawg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • I Love Pizza!
Mike,

Buzz has more than one deep-dish dough recipe. Can you tell me which specific one you want to use?

Since you will be working with volumes, you will have to do a certain amount of what you want to achieve by feel. However, if you can tell me the depths of the 9" and 16" pans, and how far up the sides of the pans the doughs go (in each case), I may be able to give you a general idea as to the relative proportioning. If you want to take a cut at what you feel that proportioning should be, I'd be happy to review your calculations. I assume that when you made the dough for the 9" pie you used all of the dough from the recipe for that pie, and also that both pans are straight sided. Are these assumptions correct?

Once you provide answers to the above questions, I also have some ideas as to how you might want to proceed. Do you have a scale by any chance?

I will leave to others the matter of proper bake temperature and times and suitable tomatoes to use for your purposes.

Peter


The specific recipe that I'm using is found at reply #6 of this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2314.0.html

Yes, both pizza pans (the 16 inch and the 9 inch) are true pizza pans, black with straight sides. In the initial recipe for the 9 inch pan, all of the dough is used. I shape it so that it lines up with the top of the sides of the pan. Strangely enough, the height of the walls on each pan is the same, one just has a greater diameter than the other. The dimensions of the 16 inch pan are 16 inches across on the inside and almost (just under) 2 inches deep. Probably about 1 and 6/7th inches if my eyes read the tape measure correctly.

Yes, there is a scale in the kitchen I will be using.

Thanks,

Mike

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21905
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Mike,

Thanks for the information.

I ran a bunch of assumptions through my deep-dish spreadsheet and I estimate that for your 16" pie you will need about 2.6 times the amount of dough you used for the 9" pie. I can't give you an exact dough weight since that will depend on the final dough thickness which, in turn will depend on how you measure out the volumes of flour, water and oil, primarily. The rest of the ingredients will be small relative to the weights of the flour, water and oil. My best advice on measuring out the volumes is to try to be as consistent as possible, especially in measuring out the flour which is the most critical component from a weight standpoint. In other words, as much as possible each cup should be measured out just like the last one, not in a haphazard manner. In your case, you will be using over 5 cups.

Where the scale comes into the picture is to help you the next time you make the same pie. When you measure out the flour this time, I suggest that you weigh it (use the tare feature to zero out the container) and make a note of its weight. When you measure out the water, make sure that you view the liquid at eye level. The rest of the ingredients can be converted to weights by using standard conversion data, so I wouldn't worry about their weights at this point. Of course, to the extent you make changes as you prepare the dough you should note those changes so that they are available for use the next time you make the same size pie.

When you are ready to use the dough to make the pizza, I would weigh the empty 16" deep-dish pan and note its weight. If you plan to oil the pan before fitting the dough, I would weigh the pan with the oil in it. Hopefully the conversion factor I gave above (2.6) will allow you to use all of the dough in the pan without any left over. However, if you see that you have excess dough left over because of the particular thickness you settled on, set the excess aside and weight the pan with the fitted dough in it. With a simple math subtraction, we will be able to determine the actual weight of the dough fitted into the pan. I am guessing that the total dough weight will be around 36-39 ounces, so you might want to use that number as a rough cross check. If it turns out that you like the finished crust, and especially its thickness, then the next time you make the same pie (16"), you will have all the data you need to replicate the pie. Also, if you'd like, you will be able to create the corresponding baker's percents. With a little bit more work, it will also be possible to tweak the formulation to increase or decrease the thickness of the dough for use the next time. Quite frequently, it will take a few iterations to get the formulation where you want it.

Now that gottabedapan has spoken, I will add that I agree with everything he has said. One of the things you may want to keep in mind, however, is that if you load up your pie to the full 2" height of the pan you will have a monster pie that will affect the total bake time. I will defer to others who have made such a large pie, but you might consider using a slightly lower oven temperature (e.g., 425 degrees F) and a longer bake time to ensure that the center of the pie bakes before the crust overbakes. I think that will be the biggest challenge in making the pie. It is also one of the reasons why some professionals use heat sinks in their large deep-dish pies to achieve a uniform bake.

If you have any additional questions before you start your pizza, feel free to ask.

Peter

« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 09:11:19 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline UGAChemDawg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • I Love Pizza!
Mike,

Thanks for the information.

I ran a bunch of assumptions through my deep-dish spreadsheet and I estimate that for your 16" pie you will need about 2.6 times the amount of dough you used for the 9" pie.

Thanks!!!! It makes sense to me. I will probably make the pizza Thursday, and I will be sure to update on how it went.

Had I had to do this alone, I would have concluded that I needed about 2.4 times the dough for the 16 inch as for the 9 inch, so your figure of 2.6 sounds good to me and is what I will be using.

I arrived at 2.4 by simply figuring out the area of the 9 inch pan with the sides included and dividing that into the area of the 16 inch pan. The area of a cicle is given by pi x radius squared, and the radius of the 9 inch + 2 inch sides is 6.5 inches (9+2+2 = 13/2 = 6.5). 3.141592 x 6.5 x 6.5 = 132.73. For the 16 inch pan including the 2 inch sides we have (16 + 2 + 2 = 20/2 = 10), 3.141592 x 10 x 10 = 314.1592.

314.1592/132.73 = 2.3669 which roughly equals 2.4

I will be using 2.6 because I imagine your spreadsheet is tweeked with many other variables that my simple calculation fails to take into consideration.

Thanks!

Mike

Offline gottabedapan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 166
  • I Love Pizza!
Mike,

Your numbers for the areas are a bit on the high side, because the side of the pan is a 2" tall rectangle, not a 2" wide ring with an inside diameter of 16". (Think of the side as a label on a can: if you peel it off and lay it flat, it will be a rectangle.) So the formula for the area of the pan is the area of the bottom plus the area of the side, i.e.:

pi(r^2) + lh, where l = the perimeter of the pan (2*pi*r = pi*d).

That being said, I come up with a different number than either you or Pete-zza!

For a 2" deep 9" pan, r=4.5", d=9", giving (pi*4.5^2)+(pi*9*2) = (3.14*18.9)+(3.14*9*2)=63.585+56.52=120.105 sq. in;

for a 2" deep 16" pan, r=8", d=16", giving (pi*8^2)+(pi*16*2) = (3.14*64)+(3.14*16*2)=200.96+100.48=301.44 sq. in.

301.44/115.866=2.509
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 11:25:52 PM by gottabedapan »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21905
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
The mathematical approach set forth by gottabedapan is the correct one. My spreadsheet is set up to use that approach but it operates a bit differently and I also used slightly different values in the spreadsheet.

First, the spreadsheet uses a slightly more precise value for pi of 3.14159. Second, I used a pan depth of 1 6/7" in the spreadsheet. This is the value given to me by Mike, although I will add that using 2", which I also tried, did not materially change the final result. Third, my spreadsheet assumes that the dough that covers the bottom of the pan uses up 1/4" of the depth of the side of the pan, essentially converting the depth from roughly 2" to about 1 3/4". Fourth, my spreadsheet requires the entry of a thickness factor to calculate the amount of dough that will be needed in any given instance. In my case, I tried several thickness factors, and in each case the ratios of weights for the 16" and 9" cases came to just under 2.6, which I rounded up to 2.6.

In the final analysis I don't think it matters much whether Mike uses a factor of 2.4 or 2.5 or 2.6, since it is unlikely that he will be able to exactly multiply the quantities of ingredients for the 9'" pie by any of those factors using strictly volume measurements. Given a choice, however, I most likely would use the highest number since the worse that can happen is that there will be a bit of dough left over. The uncertainty of all this is the reason why I suggested that Mike keep track of the weights of things. Absent a solid and reliable weight measurement for flour to start with, weighing things is the only way I know how to do a credible reverse engineering job under the circumstances. And even at that it may take a few iterations of the formulation to get things right. But, once established, future efforts become much easier, as will the scaling of the formulation for other pan sizes.

Peter

Offline buzz

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 559
If you're using the 2 cup flour recipe, why not just double it, then roll it out and see if that works (it should). It seeems to me that when I used to make 16" deep dishes (and it's been a long time now), I used 3 cups of flour. A lot depends on how thick you want your finished crust to be.


 

pizzapan