Author Topic: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza  (Read 1918 times)

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Offline norma427

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Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« on: November 26, 2013, 09:28:23 PM »
I do use a bowl residue compensation when making large batches of dough for pizzas and usually have a little leftover dough from all of my batches.  I decided yesterday to use two leftover pieces of dough from my boardwalk pizzas of two batches and also used the leftover piece of dough from my Detroit pizza.  I first balled the two leftover boardwalk pieces into one dough ball and then took the Detroit leftover piece of dough and wrapped it around the boardwalk style dough ball and then pinched it shut.

I wondered what would happen when making this offspring pizza today.  The dough ball did not feel too sticky when it was cold, but when it warmed up it did feel sticky.  The offspring dough ball was just stored in a plastic bag since yesterday.  I floured the dough ball and opened it.  The offspring dough ball did open nicely and there was no sticking problems on the wooden peel.  I now wonder if the offspring dough ball did co-mingle together or stayed separate.   

What surprised me the most is that the offspring pizza had a nice rim rise and also was very moist in the rim.  Makes me want to make offspring dough balls for market all the time but I know that would not be possible.  :-D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2013, 09:31:20 PM »
Norma
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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2013, 09:32:31 PM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2013, 09:51:01 PM »
Norma,

If you decide to repeat the experiment again at some future date, and you weigh the leftover pieces of dough before combining, and knowing the baker's percents for the two types of dough, it should be pretty straightforward to reverse engineer the "offspring" dough. Then you can come up with a combined set of baker's percents for the offspring dough and make whatever dough ball weight you want. What is not clear is how you would ferment the offspring dough since the two component doughs are subjected to different fermentation protocols.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2013, 10:14:37 PM »
Norma,

If you decide to repeat the experiment again at some future date, and you weigh the leftover pieces of dough before combining, and knowing the baker's percents for the two types of dough, it should be pretty straightforward to reverse engineer the "offspring" dough. Then you can come up with a combined set of baker's percents for the offspring dough and make whatever dough ball weight you want. What is not clear is how you would ferment the offspring dough since the two component doughs are subjected to different fermentation protocols.

Peter

Peter,

I do want to repeat the experiment of an offspring dough ball and pizza again next week because I want to see if the same results can be repeated.  I would really like to have the same airy and moist crumb all the time.  I don't know why the dough ball opened so easily.  I already know the baker's percents for both doughs, but will have to weigh the extra doughs to know how much I used.  Thanks for telling me it should be pretty straight forward to reverse engineer the “offspring” dough.  Do you think the combination of the dough balls and the different resulting hydration is what make better oven spring and moistness in the rim crust, or did the outside wrapped Detroit style dough having something to contribute to that?  I also wonder about fermenting a dough with two different yeast amounts.  It worked out okay today when the pizza was made late in the afternoon but how would I figure out how much yeast to use?  Maybe I will have to think that over more.

Norma
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Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2013, 05:44:14 AM »
Very interesting, and you could come up with all types of dough combinations, for example:

Inner d.ball caputo, outer high gluten
Inner d.ball bread flour, outer semolina (for texture/crunch)
Inner d.ball low sugar, outer high (for increased browning/anemic ovens)
Inner d.ball very high hydration, outer lower hydration (for ease in handling/peel use)

You could also experiment with the thickness of both d.balls.
Il miglior fabbro

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2013, 08:12:07 AM »
I do want to repeat the experiment of an offspring dough ball and pizza again next week because I want to see if the same results can be repeated.  I would really like to have the same airy and moist crumb all the time.  I don't know why the dough ball opened so easily.  I already know the baker's percents for both doughs, but will have to weigh the extra doughs to know how much I used.  Thanks for telling me it should be pretty straight forward to reverse engineer the “offspring” dough.  Do you think the combination of the dough balls and the different resulting hydration is what make better oven spring and moistness in the rim crust, or did the outside wrapped Detroit style dough having something to contribute to that?  I also wonder about fermenting a dough with two different yeast amounts.  It worked out okay today when the pizza was made late in the afternoon but how would I figure out how much yeast to use?  Maybe I will have to think that over more.

Norma,

If you repeat the experiment and need any help with the math, I can either help you with the math or do it for you, at your option.

It is hard to say why you got the results you got. Can you refresh my memory as to the fermentation protocols you used to make the two different doughs? Unless you make two different dough batches for the two different types of pizzas and treat them like you did to make the offspring dough, the best that you are likely to be able to do is to make a single dough batch that combines both dough formulations. And the resultant dough may not perform the same way as the offspring dough you created.

Can you tell us what size pizza you made with the offspring dough?

Maybe you have already seen this before but some time ago Tom Lehmann discussed how to combine two dough balls to form a single one, at his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6769&hilit=#p44455. It sounds like two dough ball that are pressed together eventually get knitted together. In your case, you would be using two different doughs, not one dough.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2013, 09:16:26 AM »
Very interesting, and you could come up with all types of dough combinations, for example:

Inner d.ball caputo, outer high gluten
Inner d.ball bread flour, outer semolina (for texture/crunch)
Inner d.ball low sugar, outer high (for increased browning/anemic ovens)
Inner d.ball very high hydration, outer lower hydration (for ease in handling/peel use)

You could also experiment with the thickness of both d.balls.

Johnny,

I will have to see if the results are repeatable.  Your ideas are very good.  Maybe you want to try an offspring dough and pizza to see what happens.   ;D  Your pizzas are always delicious looking.  I would be interested if you decided to try an offspring of something.

Usually I just put any leftover dough into the next batch or freeze it to incorporate it into doughs the next week.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2013, 09:52:07 AM »
Norma,

If you repeat the experiment and need any help with the math, I can either help you with the math or do it for you, at your option.

It is hard to say why you got the results you got. Can you refresh my memory as to the fermentation protocols you used to make the two different doughs? Unless you make two different dough batches for the two different types of pizzas and treat them like you did to make the offspring dough, the best that you are likely to be able to do is to make a single dough batch that combines both dough formulations. And the resultant dough may not perform the same way as the offspring dough you created.

Can you tell us what size pizza you made with the offspring dough?

Maybe you have already seen this before but some time ago Tom Lehmann discussed how to combine two dough balls to form a single one, at his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6769&hilit=#p44455. It sounds like two dough ball that are pressed together eventually get knitted together. In your case, you would be using two different doughs, not one dough.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for saying you would help me with the math, or do it for me if I get the same results next week.  When I go to market Friday I will take photos of the two formulations I used.  I could just take a frozen boardwalk dough ball leftover from yesterday and make a partial Detroit style dough ball in the meantime to see what happens, but then I would not have the same deck oven to try.

Both doughs are cold fermented for about one day.  For the Detroit style dough balls some are directly placed in the steel pans with plastic hats. Those dough balls are oiled.  Others are just oiled and put into plastic bags.  All the boardwalk style dough balls are cold fermented in plastic bags.  I placed the offspring dough ball in the pizza fridge to cold ferment.  The offspring dough ball was placed in my warming cabinet to warm up and then left on the bench for awhile before it was made into a pizza.  I took a photo of the offspring dough ball right after I removed it from the pizza prep fridge but that photo came out blurry so I deleted that photo.  The cold offspring dough ball felt like it had some kind of separate top on the offspring dough, but I am not sure of that.  I did not want to fool around with that dough ball too much while it was cold.

I also wondered and thought if a combined dough formulation would be used I probably would not get the same results.  I would tend to think it would be just a higher hydration dough with a different oil and sugar amount.  I use two flours for the boardwalk style of dough and one flour for the Detroit style dough.   

The one other problem is I start with a hydration value of 75% for the Detroit style dough and then add water a little at a time to up the hydration of the Detroit style dough so I really don't know what hydration I am using from week to week.  Some weeks all depending on the temperature at market and my flour conditions I need more water than other weeks to get the same feeling dough in the final mix.  That can also happen with my boardwalk style dough batches.  After my first mix with the boardwalk style dough if the dough does not feel right I do add some more water.   

I am not sure what size pizza that was, but would guess about 14”, or maybe a little larger. 

I did not see Tom Lehmann's post on how to combine two dough balls to form a single one.  It is interesting that it sounds like the two dough ball that are pressed together eventually get knitted together.

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2013, 10:46:11 PM »
These are the two print out sheets for the Detroit style dough and the boardwalk style dough that were mixed on Monday and I used for the offspring pizza on Tuesday.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2013, 06:38:57 PM »
I made the offspring dough ball a little different today.  In total weight it weighs as much as one of my regular boardwalk style dough balls.  I tried it that way to see if it acts the same as one of my regular dough balls in making boardwalk style pizza, or makes another offspring pizza.  I know that is maybe two variables and might not work as well, because last week the offspring dough ball was smaller and I might not have had the same weighs of the boardwalk style dough and the Detroit style dough in the offspring dough ball.

I used 0.800 lb. of the boardwalk style dough and the rest of the Detroit style dough to make a total of 1.124 lb. which is the weight I use for a 17.5” boardwalk style pizza.

The 1st and 2nd photos are of the boardwalk style dough and some dough balls.  The 3rd photo is of the sticky Detroit style dough.  The 4th photo is of the boardwalk style dough and Detroit style dough on the scale.  The 5th photo is the boardwalk style of dough on the scale.  The 6th photo is of the boardwalk style dough ball that was 0.800 lb. balled and the Detroit style dough ball balled.  The 7th photo is how the Detroit style dough was stretched a little and then folded over the boardwalk style dough ball.  I think the Detroit style dough stretches so well right away because it is a higher hydration, but I don't have any proof of that.  The 8th photo is of the offspring dough ball and the 9th photo is of the offspring dough ball oiled and placed in a plastic bag.  The offspring dough ball went into the pizza prep fridge to cold ferment until tomorrow.

I have no idea what will happen tomorrow.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2013, 06:41:01 PM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2013, 09:54:16 AM »
Norma.

I was able to take the information you provided and to come up with the dough formulation that represents a combination of the Detroit offspring dough (5.18 ounces) and the Boardwalk offspring dough (12.8 ounces). The total dough offspring dough weight is 17.98 ounces. That is for a single 17.5" pizza.

For the record, this is how I came up with the combined offspring dough formulation as set forth toward the end of this post:

First, I had to recreate the original Detroit and Boardwalk dough formulations that you usually use to be sure that I had all of the right numbers. For example, in doing this I saw that you used Kosher salt (presumably Morton's), not regular table salt. Also, for the basic Detroit formulation, I concluded that you made 13 dough balls each weighing 9.5 ounces. For the Boardwalk dough formulation that you usually use, you used a thickness factor of 0.08 for 15 dough balls. In both cases, you used a thickness factor of 1.5%. I assumed in both cases that the same flour or flour blend was used. Using the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html, here is a summary of the two dough formulations:

Original Detroit Dough Formulation
Flour (100%):
Water (75%):
IDY (0.70%):
Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Total (177.45%):
Single Ball:
2002.67 g  |  70.64 oz | 4.42 lbs
1502 g  |  52.98 oz | 3.31 lbs
14.02 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.65 tsp | 1.55 tbsp
35.05 g | 1.24 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.3 tsp | 2.43 tbsp
3553.74 g | 125.35 oz | 7.83 lbs | TF = N/A
273.36 g | 9.64 oz | 0.6 lbs
Note: The above dough formulation is for 13 dough balls, each weighing 9.5 ounces; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Original Boardwalk Dough Formulation
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.50%):
Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1.5%):
Sugar (0.8%):
Total (166.55%):
Single Ball:
4986.8 g  |  175.9 oz | 10.99 lbs
3091.81 g  |  109.06 oz | 6.82 lbs
24.93 g | 0.88 oz | 0.05 lbs | 8.28 tsp | 2.76 tbsp
87.27 g | 3.08 oz | 0.19 lbs | 6.06 tbsp | 0.38 cups
74.8 g | 2.64 oz | 0.16 lbs | 5.54 tbsp | 0.35 cups
39.89 g | 1.41 oz | 0.09 lbs | 10.01 tsp | 3.34 tbsp
8305.51 g | 292.96 oz | 18.31 lbs | TF = 0.0812
553.7 g | 19.53 oz | 1.22 lbs
Note: The above dough formulation is for 15 dough balls based on a thickness factor of 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I then used the bakers percents for the two dough formulations but using the 5.18 ounce dough ball weight for the Detroit offspring dough and the 12.8 ounce dough ball weight for the Boardwalk offspring dough, but with no bowl residue compensation. This yielded the following two dough formulations for the two offspring doughs:

Dough Formulation for Detroit Offspring Dough Ball (5.18 Ounces)
Flour (100%):
Water (75%):
IDY (0.70%):
Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Total (177.45%):
82.82 g  |  2.92 oz | 0.18 lbs
62.12 g  |  2.19 oz | 0.14 lbs
0.58 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
1.45 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
146.97 g | 5.18 oz | 0.32 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Dough Formulation for Boardwalk Offspring Dough Ball (12.8 Ounces)
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.50%):
Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1.5%):
Sugar (0.8%):
Total (166.55%):
217.88 g  |  7.69 oz | 0.48 lbs
135.09 g  |  4.76 oz | 0.3 lbs
1.09 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
3.81 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
3.27 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
1.74 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
362.88 g | 12.8 oz | 0.8 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Note that the combined weights for the two offspring dough balls comes to 17.98 ounces.

Next, I added the ingredients for the two offspring dough balls together and recalculated the baker's percents to get the combined formulation, again with no bowl residue compensation. This yielded the following final combined offspring dough formulation, along with the calculated thickness factor:

Combined Detroit and Boardwark Offspring Dough Formulation
Flour (100%):
Water (65.5836%):
IDY (0.55537%):
Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1.08746%):
Sugar (0.57864%):
Total (169.55507%):
300.7 g  |  10.61 oz | 0.66 lbs
197.21 g  |  6.96 oz | 0.43 lbs
1.67 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
5.26 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
3.27 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
1.74 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
509.85 g | 17.98 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The combined offspring dough (17.98 ounces) is for a single 17.5" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor is 17.98/(3.14159 x 8.75 x 8.75) = 0.0747522; no bowl residue compensation

As you can see, the combined offspring dough formulation has an above average hydration value, a fair amount of yeast, and yields quite a thin crust. The oil and sugar levels are quite normal. Overall, on paper, the formulation looks to be like a NY style dough formulation but with an above average hydration value and a somewhat smaller thickness factor. So it will be interesting to see what results you get using the combined offspring dough. What will also be of interest is to see if the two different dough preparation and dough management methods you use for the Detroit and Boardwalk doughs are material differences that are reflected in the final results, especially since it appears that the fermentations periods are about the same from what I recall you said.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2013, 09:35:48 PM »
Norma.

I was able to take the information you provided and to come up with the dough formulation that represents a combination of the Detroit offspring dough (5.18 ounces) and the Boardwalk offspring dough (12.8 ounces). The total dough offspring dough weight is 17.98 ounces. That is for a single 17.5" pizza.

For the record, this is how I came up with the combined offspring dough formulation as set forth toward the end of this post:

First, I had to recreate the original Detroit and Boardwalk dough formulations that you usually use to be sure that I had all of the right numbers. For example, in doing this I saw that you used Kosher salt (presumably Morton's), not regular table salt. Also, for the basic Detroit formulation, I concluded that you made 13 dough balls each weighing 9.5 ounces. For the Boardwalk dough formulation that you usually use, you used a thickness factor of 0.08 for 15 dough balls. In both cases, you used a thickness factor of 1.5%. I assumed in both cases that the same flour or flour blend was used. Using the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html, here is a summary of the two dough formulations:

Original Detroit Dough Formulation
Flour (100%):
Water (75%):
IDY (0.70%):
Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Total (177.45%):
Single Ball:
2002.67 g  |  70.64 oz | 4.42 lbs
1502 g  |  52.98 oz | 3.31 lbs
14.02 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.65 tsp | 1.55 tbsp
35.05 g | 1.24 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.3 tsp | 2.43 tbsp
3553.74 g | 125.35 oz | 7.83 lbs | TF = N/A
273.36 g | 9.64 oz | 0.6 lbs
Note: The above dough formulation is for 13 dough balls, each weighing 9.5 ounces; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Original Boardwalk Dough Formulation
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.50%):
Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1.5%):
Sugar (0.8%):
Total (166.55%):
Single Ball:
4986.8 g  |  175.9 oz | 10.99 lbs
3091.81 g  |  109.06 oz | 6.82 lbs
24.93 g | 0.88 oz | 0.05 lbs | 8.28 tsp | 2.76 tbsp
87.27 g | 3.08 oz | 0.19 lbs | 6.06 tbsp | 0.38 cups
74.8 g | 2.64 oz | 0.16 lbs | 5.54 tbsp | 0.35 cups
39.89 g | 1.41 oz | 0.09 lbs | 10.01 tsp | 3.34 tbsp
8305.51 g | 292.96 oz | 18.31 lbs | TF = 0.0812
553.7 g | 19.53 oz | 1.22 lbs
Note: The above dough formulation is for 15 dough balls based on a thickness factor of 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I then used the bakers percents for the two dough formulations but using the 5.18 ounce dough ball weight for the Detroit offspring dough and the 12.8 ounce dough ball weight for the Boardwalk offspring dough, but with no bowl residue compensation. This yielded the following two dough formulations for the two offspring doughs:

Dough Formulation for Detroit Offspring Dough Ball (5.18 Ounces)
Flour (100%):
Water (75%):
IDY (0.70%):
Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Total (177.45%):
82.82 g  |  2.92 oz | 0.18 lbs
62.12 g  |  2.19 oz | 0.14 lbs
0.58 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
1.45 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
146.97 g | 5.18 oz | 0.32 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Dough Formulation for Boardwalk Offspring Dough Ball (12.8 Ounces)
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.50%):
Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1.5%):
Sugar (0.8%):
Total (166.55%):
217.88 g  |  7.69 oz | 0.48 lbs
135.09 g  |  4.76 oz | 0.3 lbs
1.09 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
3.81 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
3.27 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
1.74 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
362.88 g | 12.8 oz | 0.8 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Note that the combined weights for the two offspring dough balls comes to 17.98 ounces.

Next, I added the ingredients for the two offspring dough balls together and recalculated the baker's percents to get the combined formulation, again with no bowl residue compensation. This yielded the following final combined offspring dough formulation, along with the calculated thickness factor:

Combined Detroit and Boardwark Offspring Dough Formulation
Flour (100%):
Water (65.5836%):
IDY (0.55537%):
Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1.08746%):
Sugar (0.57864%):
Total (169.55507%):
300.7 g  |  10.61 oz | 0.66 lbs
197.21 g  |  6.96 oz | 0.43 lbs
1.67 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
5.26 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
3.27 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
1.74 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
509.85 g | 17.98 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The combined offspring dough (17.98 ounces) is for a single 17.5" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor is 17.98/(3.14159 x 8.75 x 8.75) = 0.0747522; no bowl residue compensation

As you can see, the combined offspring dough formulation has an above average hydration value, a fair amount of yeast, and yields quite a thin crust. The oil and sugar levels are quite normal. Overall, on paper, the formulation looks to be like a NY style dough formulation but with an above average hydration value and a somewhat smaller thickness factor. So it will be interesting to see what results you get using the combined offspring dough. What will also be of interest is to see if the two different dough preparation and dough management methods you use for the Detroit and Boardwalk doughs are material differences that are reflected in the final results, especially since it appears that the fermentations periods are about the same from what I recall you said.

Peter


Peter,

Thank you for doing all of those calculations to be able to come up offspring combination dough formulation I used yesterday.  That sure was a lot of work!  I did use Morton's Kosher Salt in both doughs.  I can see that the combined offspring dough formulation has an above average hydration value with a fair amount of yeast.  I also see that the TF is a little lower.   

The offspring pizza did turn out well today again and I sure can not explained why that was.  Do you have any other explanations other then then higher hydration?  I don't think I posted last evening that I did ball that piece of Detroit style dough on the top and sides of the boarwalk dough ball under with the boardwalk style dough when I balled the second time.  I don't know if those two doughs blended together or not either, but I would guess they would have some.

The offspring pizza did have good oven spring again today and was very moist in the rim crust.  The same methods were used today as last week too.  I warmed the dough ball up in the heated cabinet and then let it sit out at room temperature for awhile.  The dough ball was not sticky at all and opened very easily.  I also found it interesting when pressing on the rim crust when the offsping pizza was cool that the rim crust just popped up when pressed down.  I am guessing that was from the higher hydration but really don't know.  At least the offspring pizza results could be repeated with the same results with me not knowing what combined dough ball weights I used the first time. 

My taste testers and I enjoyed the offspring pizza.   

I guess stranger stuff has happened with dough here on the forum.  :-D

Norma
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 09:38:19 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2013, 09:41:21 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2013, 09:45:19 PM »
Norma
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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 08:55:24 AM »
The offspring pizza did turn out well today again and I sure can not explained why that was.  Do you have any other explanations other then then higher hydration?
Norma,

It is hard to say what to make of your results with data for only one experiment. However, to my eye, the results for the two offspring experiments you have conducted thus far seem to be quite similar, even with the two different offspring dough ball weights. I think the situation cries out for you to make a dough using the Combined Detroit and Boardwalk Offspring Dough Formulation. That might tell us whether it is the way that you make the two different doughs that is responsible for the results or the formulation itself. You might find, for example, that the method you end up having to use to make a combined offspring dough using the abovementioned formulation is different from either of the two dough making methods you have used to date for the Detroit and Boardwalk styles. It might be somewhere in between or you may find that you have to use the Detroit dough making method because of the 66.67% combined hydration and oil percents.

In my analysis in Reply 13, I did not attempt to apportion the formula flour between the two flours that I believe you are using for the Detroit and Boardwalk doughs. I believe you mentioned in other threads that you use an 80/20 blend of All Trumps and Occident flour for the Boardwalk style pizza and only Occident flour for the Detroit style pizza. Is that correct? If so, I can do a few calculations to determine how much of each flour is needed for the combined offspring dough formulation, as well as the protein content of the blend, should you decide to give that formulation a test drive. It is possible that the protein content of the blend is a material factor in the results you achieved.

Peter
 

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 10:41:01 AM »
Norma,

It is hard to say what to make of your results with data for only one experiment. However, to my eye, the results for the two offspring experiments you have conducted thus far seem to be quite similar, even with the two different offspring dough ball weights. I think the situation cries out for you to make a dough using the Combined Detroit and Boardwalk Offspring Dough Formulation. That might tell us whether it is the way that you make the two different doughs that is responsible for the results or the formulation itself. You might find, for example, that the method you end up having to use to make a combined offspring dough using the abovementioned formulation is different from either of the two dough making methods you have used to date for the Detroit and Boardwalk styles. It might be somewhere in between or you may find that you have to use the Detroit dough making method because of the 66.67% combined hydration and oil percents.

In my analysis in Reply 13, I did not attempt to apportion the formula flour between the two flours that I believe you are using for the Detroit and Boardwalk doughs. I believe you mentioned in other threads that you use an 80/20 blend of All Trumps and Occident flour for the Boardwalk style pizza and only Occident flour for the Detroit style pizza. Is that correct? If so, I can do a few calculations to determine how much of each flour is needed for the combined offspring dough formulation, as well as the protein content of the blend, should you decide to give that formulation a test drive. It is possible that the protein content of the blend is a material factor in the results you achieved.

Peter

Peter,

It might be hard to really figured out the exact value of hydration I used for the offspring dough ball.  As I mentioned before I almost always add more water to my doughs depending on how the flour is each week and how my doughs feel.  I have learned to eyeball and feel my doughs to see if they feel okay to me.  I did add more water to both doughs when mixing on Monday but I sure don't know how much more water I added since I just add a little water at a time and then mix a little more to see if I need more. 

As for the amount of blends of flour I used on Monday for the boardwalk style of dough I used 9 lb. of the All Trumps and 1.99 lb. of the Occident Flour.  I usually use that same blend if I am making that  size of dough batch.  For the Detroit style dough I am only using the Occident flour.

I can understand if I try using a combined Detroit and Boardwalk formulation you give me in one mix it might be able to tell us if the two dough mixing methods I used might give me the same results or different results.

I would like give your combined dough formulation in one mix a test drive if you don't have to do too much work in figuring one out.

Another thing I can't figure out either is why the higher hydration offspring dough ball did not feel sticky at all and why there was no problems with sticking issues on the wooden peel with the skin when it was dressed.  Usually if I would use that high of a hydration value I might have sticking problems on the peel.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2013, 10:47:14 AM »
In case anyone is interested and looks at this thread and wonders what a regular boardwalk style pizza and a regular Detroit style pizza looks like compared to what the offspring pizza looked like these are three photos from yesterday.  The boardwalk style pizza is the first photo.  These were not the best looking pizzas from yesterday but I thought I would take a few photos if anyone was interested.  As amost always the rim crusts on most of my photos never really look as dark as they do in person.  My cheaper digital camera does not take the best photos in artifical lighting

I was honored when a couple that usually purchased pizzas from me told me they really thought my pizzas were the best pizzas our area has to offer.  I know they were from Brooklyn, NY.  I asked them what is their favorite pizza is in NYC.  They said Joe's of Avenue U and my pizzas taste just like theirs.  They also told me they have other great foods at Joe's of Avenue U and said sometime I am in NY I will try Joe's of Avenue U. 

This is one video of foods at Joe's of Avenue U. 
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1egnw3phssI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1egnw3phssI</a>
  This is also an article on seriouseats about Joe's of Avenue U. http://newyork.seriouseats.com/2008/08/joes-of-avenue-u-sicilian-brooklyn-gravesend-nyc.html   I can't find any photos of their pizzas though.  This is Joe's website.  http://www.joesofavenueu.com/ 

Another customer told Steve I should open a pizzeria in Lancaster because I would make a killing with one there.  My body would never handle a regular pizzeria.  :-D  Yesterday was extremely busy and I sure can't explain why that was.  I only sat down one time for about a half a minute.  We did sell out of dough balls until evening.

Norma
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Re: Offspring Dough Ball and Pizza
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2013, 01:45:17 PM »
I would like give your combined dough formulation in one mix a test drive if you don't have to do too much work in figuring one out.

Another thing I can't figure out either is why the higher hydration offspring dough ball did not feel sticky at all and why there was no problems with sticking issues on the wooden peel with the skin when it was dressed.  Usually if I would use that high of a hydration value I might have sticking problems on the peel.
Norma,

I have set forth below a test Combined Detroit and Boardwalk Offspring Dough Formulation for you to consider. Based on the information you provided on the All Trumps and Occident flours that you have been using, and their amounts, I have calculated that the formula flour in the above formulation is 59.33% All Trumps flour and 40.67% Occident flour. The protein content of the blend is 13%. That puts the protein content in the sweet zone for the type of pizza you are making.

As for the hydration question you posed, assuming that you are not using a lot of bench flour, it is possible that the way you make the Detroit style dough with the long knead and the rest period improves the hydration of the dough such that it is not as wet as one kneaded for a short period without the rest period. It is also be possible that the heating cabinet dried the dough to the point where it was no longer sticky, especially if you also used some bench flour. I don't see anything in the dough formulation itself to explain why the combined offspring doughs you made were not sticky

I wouldn't be concerned about having to add more water to the dough if needed because of the dryness of the flours. That will change the dough ball weight somewhat so you should scale the dough ball such that it is 17.98 ounces/509.85 grams. 

Combined Detroit and Boardwalk Offspring Dough Formulation #1
Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (65.5836%):
IDY (0.55537%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1.08746%):
Sugar (0.57864%):
Total (169.55507%):
305.21 g  |  10.77 oz | 0.67 lbs
200.17 g  |  7.06 oz | 0.44 lbs
1.7 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.56 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
5.34 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
3.32 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
1.77 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
517.5 g | 18.25 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour Blend comprises 181.1 grams of All Trumps flour and 124.1 grams of Occident flour
Note: The dough (17.98 ounces/509.85 grams) is for a single 17.5" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.0747522; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Peter