Author Topic: My evolving NY style  (Read 2579 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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My evolving NY style
« on: November 29, 2013, 11:50:43 AM »
Iíve decided itís time to make some changes to my NY style. Iíve been pretty happy with my NY style pizzas for a long time, but I havenít focused on this style much in the three years since I joined the boards.

For a long time my standard NY style dough formula has been:

100% All Trumps flour (bleached and bromated)
58-60% Water
0.63% ADY
1.34-1.75% Salt
1.58% Oil

(Don't ask me why I ever used 58% hydration with All Trumps.)

Workflow:
  • Use small amount of warm water to hydrate ADY. (The rest of the water is warm, too.)
  • Mix the dough for 3 minutes with spiral dough hook.
  • Scale and round the dough immediately after mixing.
  • Immediately wrap each dough ball with plastic wrap.
  • Immediately refrigerate.
  • Use dough after 48 hours. (This dough can be used after 24 hours or 72 hours, but 48 is best.)
  • Remove dough from fridge about an hour before baking.
Dough, sauce, and cheese portions have fluctuated over the years, but most recently for 14" pizzas I used about 14.02 oz of dough (397 grams), sauce by feel, and 7.77 oz of mozzarella (220 grams). Prior to summer 2013, sauce was almost always San Marzano tomatoes with nothing added. (During the summer, I began using 7/11 ground tomatoes with nothing added.) For the last couple years, all my NY style pizzas have been baked in a grill, on a stone lined with aluminum foil on the bottom to reflect heat. (The foil trick really does make a huge difference.)

This made fine pizzas, some of which are documented at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20591.0 and http://ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com/2012/09/ryans-new-york-style_21.html. But as I already said, lately Iíve reassessed my pizzas and decided I could probably be doing a few things better. This decision was at least partly influenced by some things scott123 and waltertore have said in various posts.

Here are a few pics of pizzas I made prior to my recent changes. These were baked in a grill, at various temperatures, which I couldn't exactly control. Iíll use the next post to document my initial recent changes.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2013, 12:11:49 PM »
The following formula reflects my initial recent changes:

100% All Trumps flour (bleached and bromated)
62% Water (was 58-60%)
0.55% ADY (was 0.63%)
1.75% Salt (was 1.34-1.75)
1.58% Oil

One thing I was already doing differently, as of summer 2013: Instead of using exclusively warm water for the dough, I started using 30 grams of warm water to hydrate the ADY, with the remainder of the water being cold, sometimes with a couple ice cubes added.

A change I made beginning with this batch of dough: Instead of removing dough from the fridge about an hour before baking, Iíve been removing it three hours before baking.

The rest of the workflow is the same as what I shared in the original post, as is the dough ball weight. Since Iíve decided to bake in the oven instead of the grill, I've used a little more cheese (7.98 oz/226 grams). (When baking in the grill, I had to go light on cheese because there is so little top heat in the grill.)

Even though 62% hydration is usually as high as I go, I felt like this dough was a little too stiff. Also, the dough fermented faster than I wanted (I guess because my idea of what constitutes adequately-fermented dough has changed).

Instead of baking in the grill, I baked in the oven, at its max temperature (500) for 6 minutes, but with the oven calibrated to add 30 degrees. So I guess you could say Iím now baking at 530. This is how I will bake all my NY style pizzas for now on (or at least until I move to a place with a different oven, which may be soon).

Sauce for these pizzas:

28 oz 7/11
Ĺ tsp dried basil
Ĺ tsp dried oregano
1 clove chopped garlic

The first three pics are of the pizza I made after 24 hours of fermentation. The following two pics are of the pizza I made after 48 hours. I didnít take any pics of the pizza I made after 72 hours.

In my next post, I will share my latest dough formula and other important information.

Offline waltertore

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2013, 12:15:34 PM »
Hi Ryan: I look forward to your new results.  I also continue to tweak my recipe for dough, sauce, cheese, temps.  My tweaks are small and probably not very noticable to others.  I am going to be heading to RD probably next weekend.  Let me know if  you want to hook up again.  Walter

Offline waltertore

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2013, 12:21:01 PM »
The following formula reflects my initial recent changes:

100% All Trumps flour (bleached and bromated)
62% Water (was 58-60%)
0.55% ADY (was 0.63%)
1.75% Salt (was 1.34-1.75)
1.58% Oil

One thing I was already doing differently, as of summer 2013: Instead of using exclusively warm water for the dough, I started using 30 grams of warm water to hydrate the ADY, with the remainder of the water being cold, sometimes with a couple ice cubes added.

A change I made beginning with this batch of dough: Instead of removing dough from the fridge about an hour before baking, Iíve been removing it three hours before baking.

The rest of the workflow is the same as what I shared in the original post, as is the dough ball weight. Since Iíve decided to bake in the oven instead of the grill, I've used a little more cheese (7.98 oz/226 grams). (When baking in the grill, I had to go light on cheese because there is so little top heat in the grill.)

Even though 62% hydration is usually as high as I go, I felt like this dough was a little too stiff. Also, the dough fermented faster than I wanted (I guess because my idea of what constitutes adequately-fermented dough has changed).

Instead of baking in the grill, I baked in the oven, at its max temperature (500) for 6 minutes, but with the oven calibrated to add 30 degrees. So I guess you could say Iím now baking at 530. This is how I will bake all my NY style pizzas for now on (or at least until I move to a place with a different oven, which may be soon).

Sauce for these pizzas:

28 oz 7/11
Ĺ tsp dried basil
Ĺ tsp dried oregano
1 clove chopped garlic

The first three pics are of the pizza I made after 24 hours of fermentation. The following two pics are of the pizza I made after 48 hours. I didnít take any pics of the pizza I made after 72 hours.

In my next post, I will share my latest dough formula and other important information.

Ryan:  Your new pies look great!  I go with a wetter dough than most and also prefer the dough balls to be at room temp for at least 2 hours and prefer 3 and like a 2-3 day cold ferment.  I find they rise to the right amount and are easier to work with when out of the fridge at 3 hours.  IMO the key is how you like it.  If you like it then it is the best pizza out there.  Walter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2013, 12:23:48 PM »
My most recent dough formula:

100% All Trumps flour (bleached and bromated)
64% Water (was 58-60%, then 62%)
0.4% ADY (was 0.63%, then 0.55%)
1.75% Salt (was 1.34-1.75%)
1.5% Oil (was 1.58)
0.5% Sugar (was 0%)

I mixed this batch of dough for 4 minutes, rather than the usual 3 minutes. I also scaled the dough balls to 12.92 oz (366 grams), rather than 14.02 oz of dough (397 grams). And once again I removed the dough from the fridge 3 hours before baking, rather than one hour. (This will become a standard procedure.)

With the first pizza from this batch (which used 24-hour dough), I increased the cheese portion again, from 7.98 oz (226 grams) to 8.47 oz (240 grams). I originally intended to make a 14Ē pizza, but I ended up stretching the dough to around 15Ē (somewhat intentionally), which is evident in the picture of the whole pizza on my 16Ē peel. As a result, the pizza was thinner than most NY style pizzas. It was so thin that reheated slices stayed completely floppy, rather than becoming a little crispier, which is what usually happens when I reheat slightly thicker NY style slices.

Walter, this pizza was even thinner than the slices you gave me, which were probably the thinnest NY style slices Iíve ever had (excluding pizzas Iíve made over the years). I used to make my NY style pizzas ridiculously thin, I guess partly because I spent so much time practicing for the Largest Dough Stretch competitions back in 2004-05. Back then (and for many years following), it felt weird for me to stretch dough thick enough not to be able to see my arm hair through it if I rested it on my arms.

As you might be able to tell from the first picture below, I used a different stretching technique for this pizza. I think I may have somewhat preferred how the outer crust turned out on this one, compared to other pizzas, but I also think it was aesthetically less pleasing, specifically because of how I stretched it. Stretching in a way that creates a more obvious NY style crust is something I know I have to work on.

I added 0.5% sugar to this dough because the top of my crusts have been very pale. I think maybe my crusts have been so pale because Iíve been using flour that I bought about a year and a half ago. Even though the top of the crust didnít look quite right, the crust tasted very good. Also, even though the top of the crust didnít seem to get any browning help from the sugar, it seems the sugar did cause a little extra browning on the bottom of the crust (as shown in the second picture).

I think the third picture probably gives a good idea of how thin this pizza was.

For being only a 24-hour dough, I was very happy with this pizza. I expect the next pizza to be better (same dough but 48 hours old, rather than 24 hours). I also expect it to look better.

Offline waltertore

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2013, 12:42:23 PM »
Ryan:  That is some thin crust.  On the browning I know that cameras do not do that great a job of an honest  reproduction.  I am also not that knowledgable on home ovens for pizzas.  I notice the underside is also a bit  pale other than the dark spots.  That could be the camera flash .   What shelf is your stone on? I wonder if you raised the stone up a bit  higher and cooked it a bit more you might get more browning?  I got lucky with our home oven. We bought it brand new a couple years ago and I made my first and only pizza on it this summer.  I have made a few batches of bread in it and learned I needed to raise the stone off the oven floor.   I put my stone on the second rack from the bottom and cook at 550  for pizza and 425 for bread. The results are even top/bottom browning for the breads and pretty good for the pizza.  I am also not interested in broiling because it is just a hassle to do with this new oven.  The best home oven I ever had was an old electric oven that was in an old home economics room I took over.  It did pizza the closest to our deck ovens.  I have found home gas ovens to not come close to that oven.  It was an entry level no frills model with a manual temp dial.  It went in the scrap heap when they demolished our room to make way for our current space.  Walter   
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 03:45:55 PM by waltertore »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2013, 01:18:54 PM »
Thanks Walter. I think they look OK, but there's still plenty of work ahead of me. One thing I didn't mention in my previous few posts is that I'm using a bag of Grande whole milk mozzarella that's been in the freezer for about three months. Since I had never used frozen cheese before, I was kinda scared to try it, but it seems to be working fine.

I'm probably very game for meeting again at RD, but I can't say for sure yet. When you know when you'll be heading over there, let me know.

I rarely use the camera's flash. And when I do, it's an accident. I have the stone on the bottom rack. I've thought about raising the stone (or something like that), but I don't want the cheese to get done any faster than it already is. Part of the problem is my crappy oven; my pizzas would look much better if they were baked in just about any other oven. Maybe things will work better after I add a little more cheese than I've been using (or get a new bag of flour).

I never have to rotate my pizzas, either in the oven or the grill. I would have to rotate in the grill if I didn't cover the bottom of the stone with foil, but I don't have to rotate when the foil is there (which is now any time I bake in the grill).

I've been thinking old, cheap ovens are probably better than new, fancy ovens. My mom has a fancy-looking KitchenAid oven, with all kinds of features, and it sucks. To even be able to fit my 15.75" stone in it, I have to flip the bottom rack over. This would make it impossible to keep most things level, but my stone stays level because it has gaps between the feet, so the stone bridges the oven rack's cross-bracing piece.

Time to turn on the oven for today's pizza.

Offline waltertore

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2013, 01:55:06 PM »
Ryan: Many NYC area pizzas are pale on the rim.   In fact growing up  most had that trait.  Now people are going for more char and such.  I still prefer a lighter rim color and light brown bottom. You are doing great with a home oven.  If you make it out to Newark bring some dough balls and you can cook them in our Blodgetts and see how they compare.  My photos are all with the flash. I will have to try it without next time.  Here is is a rim shot from a recent pie that reminds me my youth and despite the flash looks like the pie actually looked.  The second is a side view of my skillet pie and a crust off the pictured NY style.   They look different to my eye but both are from the same pie. The flash seems to add brown and washes out the red of the sauce.  I will let you know if I am heading out there next weekend. We are about out of flour and 7/11.  Walter
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 03:49:27 PM by waltertore »

Offline TomN

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2013, 02:20:12 PM »
Very Nice Looking Pies...

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2013, 03:27:24 PM »
Thanks Tom. I just finished 75% of today's pizza. I took a few pics, which I'll share after I lay around for a while. This was definitely better than yesterday's pizza (same dough), and I expect tomorrow's to be better. I'm really liking the latest dough formula, and 12.9 oz of dough seems about right for 14". Even though All Trumps does tend to make crust that's maybe a bit too tough or chewy, it's working for me right now. I doubt that I'll be changing the formula much more. Just gotta work on my stretching technique and maybe find a better balance in the oven.


Offline Needssalt

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2013, 04:43:13 PM »
Pies are looking good.  I like that hydration better for the AT too.  Since you are recording/changing things, you should make some comparisons to the yeast predictive table in the "general" forum.   Might give you some more variables to play with.   

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2013, 07:57:06 PM »
Seems like I had some stuff to say, but I can't remember what it might have been. As expected, today's pizza (48 hour dough) was much better than yesterday's (same dough, 24 hours earlier). I don't know if you can see it in the pics, but there was a little more noticeable browning on the top of the crust. Still pretty pale, though. I was shooting for 14", but I got stage fright or something and ended up with a pizza that was 14" in one direction and 13" in the other. I used the same amount of cheese as yesterday. (No, I did not bake on the screen. I only use screens for makeshift cooling racks.)

I just made another batch of dough, which won't be used until two days from now. I made two changes with this batch: 1) Doubled the sugar percentage to 1%; and 2) Mixed for 5 minutes, instead of 4 (instead of 3). I'm not sure if I got the salt or sugar measurements right because my scale didn't seem interested in measuring either of those ingredients (as I added them to the flour after taring the scale with the bowl of flour on it). Guess I'll stick with measuring spoons for those ingredients in the future.

Even though my recipe was supposed to make 26 oz of dough, I ended up with 26.3 oz of dough. I thought maybe I should just toss the dough and make another batch using my other scale (which is a foodservice-quality mechanical scale), but so far I haven't done it.

Walter, I'm dying to bake some of these in your ovens. My spreadsheet tells me to use 20.92 oz of dough (593 grams) for an 18" pizza. Is that consistent with your dough ball weight?

Offline waltertore

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2013, 08:37:44 PM »
Ryan:  Those pies look good!   I hope I never make a perfect circle pie -that is for the chain stores!   I use 20 oz balls for a solid 18' pie.  The peel we use is a 20" and the dough pretty much covers it.   I have 18" boxes and they barely fit in and often exceed the 18" pans we put them on for cutting/serving.  Using our ovens might be a bad thing because if like me, you might not want to bake in a home oven anymore :)  I  have to go in Sunday and make dough for the week.  You are invited anytime -weekdays or weekends.  Walter
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 08:39:30 PM by waltertore »

Offline pythonic

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2013, 03:32:40 PM »
Looking good Ryan.  I use 65% hydration when I use my bromated All Trumps.  Are you happy with you upper crust color?  If not try a false ceiling using foil on another rack or finish it off under the broiler.  I get some decent browning.

Nate
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 03:40:50 PM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2013, 10:29:24 PM »
Looking good Ryan.  ...  Are you happy with you upper crust color?

Thanks Nate. Mostly I'm not real happy with the upper crust color, but it doesn't bother me too much. Today's pizza (72 hour dough) browned much nicer than the same dough over the previous two days. I took two pictures, which I'll probably share tomorrow. (Too much good football today to spend time processing pictures.)

I actually removed a piece of foil from the top rack before I baked today's pizza. The foil had been there since before I started making pizzas again about a week ago. I had it there for a totally different reason than what you mentioned, but I like your idea and I'm gonna try it. I don't think the foil really affected how my crust browned because the piece of foil was pretty small and I positioned it way over on the right side of the oven (for reasons I don't want to spend time explaining right now).

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2013, 07:27:40 PM »
The pictures below are of yesterday's pizza. It was made of the following dough, after 72 hours of refrigeration:

100% All Trumps flour (bleached and bromated)
64% Water
0.4% ADY
1.75% Salt
1.5% Oil
0.5% Sugar

I'm not sure I've said this anywhere, but I'm baking all these pizzas for about 6 minutes.

I've settled into using 240 grams of cheese, and I now purposely keep from distributing the cheese all the way to the edge of the sauced area. Like the previous pizza, this one came out about 13" x 14". From what I remember, the crust on this one browned better than the previous one, which was made from the same dough but baked 24 hours earlier. If you want to compare how this 3-day dough compares to my previous pizza (2-day dough), check out Reply #11: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28803.msg290094.html#msg290094.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2013, 07:37:29 PM »
And a couple pictures of today's pizza. This one turned out about 13.5", I'd say, even though I've been meaning to go 14"-14.5". I made this dough two days ago. The formula was:

100% All Trumps flour (bleached and bromated)
64% Water
0.4% ADY
1.75% Salt
1.5% Oil
1% Sugar

Or at least it was supposed to be, except my scale was acting up on me. The dough still came out fine.

I obviously used a little too much flour on the peel for this one. Also, I'm not using enough yeast to make a good 2-day dough. This was good, but tomorrow's will probably be better.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2013, 02:50:57 PM »
Here are some pics of yesterday's pizza. The dough for this pizza was the same dough as the previous two days, but after 72 hours in the fridge, rather than 24 hours and 48 hours. Even though the 48-hour dough didn't seem quite ready to be used, a day later it was a little over the hill. I'm still having trouble ending up with a 14"-14.5" pizza. I keep stretching the dough large enough, but I think it shrinks a little as I peel it onto the stone. Probably what's really going on is that I'm overthinking everything.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2013, 03:00:02 PM »
Correction to my previous post: I only made two pizzas out of the most recent batch of dough; one after 48 hours and one after 72 hours. I did not use this dough after 24 hours because at that point I still had a dough ball remaining from the previous batch.

Offline gotbags-10

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Re: My evolving NY style
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2013, 07:14:23 PM »
Great looking pies Ryan! Alright so I have to ask. What are you guys getting at RD for your pizza making if I may ask? I always go there for my briskets, pork butts and ribs for my other cooking/ smoking passion. Never thought they had stuff for pizza though. Thanks nick.