Author Topic: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven  (Read 8370 times)

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Offline JD

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2014, 05:44:15 PM »
20 inch deck

This is actually a very good suggestion that should be considered. You have a very interesting product, but unfortunately Blackstone is a bit ahead of you so now you need to set yourself apart from them. A 20" deck would be an amazing feature for many people.


Offline Adam T

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2014, 07:03:00 PM »
This is actually a very good suggestion that should be considered. You have a very interesting product, but unfortunately Blackstone is a bit ahead of you so now you need to set yourself apart from them. A 20" deck would be an amazing feature for many people.

Hmm thanks for the input guys, I'll have to think about making it bigger. This oven is being designed exclusively for me, no plans to market this. If it works out for me a coworker might make one of his own. If someone really really really liked the design and wanted a 20" deck I could probably be convinced to fabricate one for them. Between shipping and steel costs it wouldn't be dirt cheap though.

Offline JD

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2014, 06:31:48 AM »
 Sorry Adam, I just assumed you were designing to sell based on the professionalism of this thread. I am impressed with your initiative and progress, can't wait to see some pies made with the new design.

Offline Adam T

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2014, 07:22:36 AM »
Sorry Adam, I just assumed you were designing to sell based on the professionalism of this thread. I am impressed with your initiative and progress, can't wait to see some pies made with the new design.

I'm probably in the very small group of people crazy enough to model a pizza oven in 3D just for the fun of it  ;D

Next step is probably to make the oven a little lighter. The Scorched Earth Pizza Oven (SEPO) is way heavier than it should be, maybe 100+ pounds. I have used 12 gauge (.1046") and 10 gauge (.1345") steel for the oven shell, I think I need to change the 10ga. steel to 12ga. to save weight. I also need to change out the 7 gauge (.1793") material I used for the top chimney.

At some point I'll also probably add a couple of rails in the upper section that could hold a top shelf in case the chimney directed heat isn't cutting it for top heat. I'm really looking forward to seeing just how fast I can cook a neo pizza without the top stone.  :pizza:

Offline barryvabeach

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2014, 07:34:45 AM »
Adam, that looks fantastic.  My favorite feature is the adjustable location of the burner.   

Offline Tampa

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2014, 08:42:34 AM »
Good for you Adam.  Love the modeling and innovation.

I did some water/steam experiments in a pizza oven years ago (search if interested), and the results on pizza were underwhelming.  Steam use in bread baking is common, and I was hoping that applying steam to the rim of pizza would result in expansion bigger than a garden hose.   It didn't work for me on pizza.
Dave

Offline Adam T

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2014, 09:28:27 AM »
Adam, that looks fantastic.  My favorite feature is the adjustable location of the burner.

Thanks. I think top heat coming directly from the burner where you can adjust the intensity could really shorten the learning curve on the way to getting the perfect top/bottom heat combination.

Good for you Adam.  Love the modeling and innovation.

I did some water/steam experiments in a pizza oven years ago (search if interested), and the results on pizza were underwhelming.  Steam use in bread baking is common, and I was hoping that applying steam to the rim of pizza would result in expansion bigger than a garden hose.   It didn't work for me on pizza.
Dave

Good to know about the steam and pizza. Even though the steam is for bread baking I had been curious about it's effect on pizza.

I'm worried that this oven won't work well for bread. If it doesn't, then the adjustable ceiling height concept will be a waste. Makes me wonder if I should simplify things. Any bread bakers out there want to chime in? I was thinking that this oven would be a good home oven solution as a way to add steam to the bake.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2014, 09:49:33 AM »
The adjustable burner concept is creative, but why not simply use two burners that you could adjust independently to maximize the heat balance with a minimum of effort? It also might make sense to have a low pressure burner under the deck and a high pressure burner in the back?

With the current design, will you have to slide the burner back and forth when baking bread? Is it going to be a problem when you boil out all the water?

Can you not bake bread in your kitchen oven?
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Offline JD

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2014, 10:00:38 AM »
IMO the difference between baking bread and pizza outside is highly dependent on the efficiency of the oven. You're probably going to waste a lot of propane making bread due to pre-heat times & 30 minute+ bake times and an uninsulated oven. When I was making beer using a similar burner, I'd probably get 4-6 hours of total burn per tank of propane. Totally worth it for 2 cases of beer, but a few loaves of bread? Probably not. Pizza? For sure.


Offline Adam T

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2014, 10:27:36 AM »
The adjustable burner concept is creative, but why not simply use two burners that you could adjust independently to maximize the heat balance with a minimum of effort? It also might make sense to have a low pressure burner under the deck and a high pressure burner in the back?

Two burners would certainly maximize the adjust-ability. Right now in the prototype I am using a 1" corderite shelf for the stone and it stores a lot of heat. I get the stone up to temp I launch the pizza and move the burner back for top heat and turn the regulator to about half output. When the pizza finishes I move the burner to back under the stone. I haven't needed heat under the stone during the bake. Of course I'm pretty slow between pizzas so I can't say how short the stone recovery time could be.

More testing is necessary.  :chef:

Quote
With the current design, will you have to slide the burner back and forth when baking bread? Is it going to be a problem when you boil out all the water?

Can you not bake bread in your kitchen oven?

The bread baking idea is subject to testing, I'll probably need to move the burner back and forth or I might be able to let it straddle between the two positions providing top heat and heat the stone at the same time.

When the water boils out I have a hole in the back where I can refill the reservoir. When it goes dry it won't be a problem either.

It's been a long time since I attempted a Tartine style loaf at all. In my oven I covered the bread boule with a stainless steel bowl and had a cup of water to provide steam. The idea is that this oven design would provide a unique solution to adding steam to the first half of the bake. Also, I'm interested in the what the convection properties of this oven could do for good top browning. The huge downside is trying to keep an even heat for a 30 to 40 minute bake. I'm sure bread would take a lot more trial and error to get it right than a traditional home oven.

Thinking back through the design, the adjustable ceiling height doesn't add a TON of extra work and parts. It's nice to have a removable top for ease of assembly too.

Offline Adam T

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2014, 10:35:17 AM »
IMO the difference between baking bread and pizza outside is highly dependent on the efficiency of the oven. You're probably going to waste a lot of propane making bread due to pre-heat times & 30 minute+ bake times and an uninsulated oven. When I was making beer using a similar burner, I'd probably get 4-6 hours of total burn per tank of propane. Totally worth it for 2 cases of beer, but a few loaves of bread? Probably not. Pizza? For sure.

Really good point. I'll need to revisit the design and see what the benefits would be of less or no adjust-ability to the ceiling. Adding a turntable, having a larger deck, and lessening my pre-heat time (conserving propane) are some of the things I'd really like to accomplish in this build versus my current pizza oven.

Offline barryvabeach

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2014, 09:17:15 PM »
Adam,  I do a fair amount of bread baking, and think you are wasting time and effort on the height adjustment and the steam.  Turning to the steam, do a youtube video of the steam injection in a baking oven - you will see it is a serious amount of steam - and they inject it several times in a few minutes.  I don't think your setup will in any way replicate that, and in fact it will mostly seep out of the oven since it is hardly sealed.  Second, there is no real benefit to using that oven for pizza - from what I have read, you use the residual heat of a WFO to bake bread - since you have the residual heat anyway, why not.  I made some bread in a BS just to see if I could, and the whole time I kept thinking it was an awful waste of gas.   The main appeal of yours, and the BS, is a quick start up time, which means there is not much in the way of residual heat.  Since it is gas fired, you can't really seal the oven off like you can in a electric oven.  I would just focus on the pizza.  Those that want steam for baking have a number of other options ( covered containers like DO,  injecting steam in a pan, ice water in a pan of metal, etc ).   

Offline Tampa

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2014, 10:08:31 AM »
Adam,  I do a fair amount of bread baking, and think you are wasting time and effort on the height adjustment and the steam.  Turning to the steam, do a youtube video of the steam injection in a baking oven - you will see it is a serious amount of steam - and they inject it several times in a few minutes.  I don't think your setup will in any way replicate that, and in fact it will mostly seep out of the oven since it is hardly sealed.  Second, there is no real benefit to using that oven for pizza - from what I have read, you use the residual heat of a WFO to bake bread - since you have the residual heat anyway, why not.  I made some bread in a BS just to see if I could, and the whole time I kept thinking it was an awful waste of gas.   The main appeal of yours, and the BS, is a quick start up time, which means there is not much in the way of residual heat.  Since it is gas fired, you can't really seal the oven off like you can in a electric oven.  I would just focus on the pizza.  Those that want steam for baking have a number of other options ( covered containers like DO,  injecting steam in a pan, ice water in a pan of metal, etc ).
Wow Barry, very well reasoned and well written.
Dave

Offline Adam T

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2014, 10:44:43 AM »
Thanks for the input all!

The 5" of ceiling height adjustment it out of the design now. The adjustment bolts and front cover are removed now. I'll be able to trim up some length on the upper shroud which will save some steel weight.

There are two things I'm still mulling over. The first is the appropriate distance for the burner to be below the baking stone. On my prototype the distance 6" and I have 6-1/8" in my new design. The prototype has a 1" corderite kiln shelf with direct flame to the underside of the stone. The new design will have the cheap 5/8" pizza stone found on Amazon (made in China?) with a 7 gauge (.1793") plate under the stone.

The other question is, what an optimal height for the height of the ceiling to be above the stone is. The prototype is 3-3/8", my new design is at 3" adjustable up to 4-1/4".

Any suggestions?

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2014, 12:47:05 PM »
Thanks for the input all!

The 5" of ceiling height adjustment it out of the design now. The adjustment bolts and front cover are removed now. I'll be able to trim up some length on the upper shroud which will save some steel weight.

There are two things I'm still mulling over. The first is the appropriate distance for the burner to be below the baking stone. On my prototype the distance 6" and I have 6-1/8" in my new design. The prototype has a 1" corderite kiln shelf with direct flame to the underside of the stone. The new design will have the cheap 5/8" pizza stone found on Amazon (made in China?) with a 7 gauge (.1793") plate under the stone.

The other question is, what an optimal height for the height of the ceiling to be above the stone is. The prototype is 3-3/8", my new design is at 3" adjustable up to 4-1/4".

Any suggestions?
I think the best answers might be to just simply copy specs from the BS oven Adam. The oven is a proven winner so why not? You definitely won't need that 7ga. platter for one thing $.
Just let us know...I'd be glad to go out back with a tape measure and get you some numbers.

Bob
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Offline Adam T

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2014, 01:26:24 PM »
I think the best answers might be to just simply copy specs from the BS oven Adam. The oven is a proven winner so why not? You definitely won't need that 7ga. platter for one thing $.
Just let us know...I'd be glad to go out back with a tape measure and get you some numbers.

Bob

Sure, that would be great, I've been curious as to how the BS is set up. I went to the Cabela's in town looking to see a BS put together in the showroom, they don't have one set up  :(

You think I should go with a thinner platter thickness?

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2014, 02:38:03 PM »
Sure, that would be great, I've been curious as to how the BS is set up. I went to the Cabela's in town looking to see a BS put together in the showroom, they don't have one set up  :(

You think I should go with a thinner platter thickness?
Take a look around in the BS threads and you can see that the design is quite similar to yours....main difference being your burner located in the rear versus side mount.

The reason I say thinner platter is because if you are switching over to a different bottom stone, one being more like that in the BS then it only seems logical to go with platter thickness same as BS....we all know that works, right?  ;)

With the fab and welding work you've shown you should be able to copy a BS easy...it's a pretty clean, basic design. Probably even be able to make it better.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 02:44:00 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Adam T

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2014, 03:07:55 PM »
Take a look around in the BS threads and you can see that the design is quite similar to yours....main difference being your burner located in the rear versus side mount.

The reason I say thinner platter is because if you are switching over to a different bottom stone, one being more like that in the BS then it only seems logical to go with platter thickness same as BS....we all know that works, right?  ;)

Right, I don't want the platter to thick that it slows down heat transfer more than it needs to. It does need to be thick enough to not warp. If you let me know how thick you think the BS platter is (if you get a chance sometime) and that will give me a good comparison to consider.

Offline barryvabeach

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2014, 08:52:40 PM »
Adam,   CB has listed the platter thickness in the BS page - IIRC 1/4 inch.  For your use, I would think you could get by with something in the order of 1/8 inch,  there is not a  lot of load that needs to be supported, and it will be easier to weld the drive rod to it.  Think about how thin your pizza pans are, and if you stacked one on a top of quarters ( simulating the drive rod ) and loaded a pizza, the pan wouldn't bend or droop appreciably.  If you read the first pages of the BS thread, one problem was one or two users turned it on to heat up, and came back a short time later and they had melted - burned the platter because they had not turned on the motor for the rotiss.   At first I found it hard to believe, but then if you think about it, it is just a big propane torch in a small space - it will definitely take most metals and get them more than red hot pretty quick.  So my guess is they made it that thick to keep from that from being a major problem.  Many of us do not use the metal platter to distribute the heat, since we put spacers so the heat is distributed by air, not contact with the metal platter.   
In terms of height, pretty easy - cut up some cardboard boxes to different sizes and try loading and unloading pizza - and use  a size you feel comfortable with.  I use a super peel which makes it extremely easy even with very little clearance -  and I had a prior electric oven that I modified and ended up with maybe 2 inches of space between the bottom stone and the top element.  My current electric oven has about 3 1/4 inches ( though I don't use it since I have the BS )  Definitely the higher it is, the easier it feels to launch it, so I would err on going a little higher than you absolutely need to avoid any stress.  Also, the higher the opening, the deeper you can see into the oven to see if there is any burning cheese.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2014, 09:33:47 PM »
Good point about the spacers Barry.
Yes, I reported that the Platter is 3ga. and Adam was thinking of going with 7ga.   You are correct in that it is not a matter of supporting weight/a heavy load. I am just thinking about conductivity to simulate the BS bake so your recommendation of using 1/8in. would probably be perfect for simulating a BS set-up that uses spacers. With that(1/8in.), Adam would not need the spacers.

Bob
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Offline Adam T

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2014, 02:54:37 PM »
The weather is (was) getting warmer. It's time to start pizza making again.  :D

I'm making the revised oven design. Most of the steel was just cut on a CNC plasma cutter.
Next up is forming the pieces, a little processing, and then welding.

Offline Adam T

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2014, 08:22:20 AM »
Most of the steel was just cut on a CNC plasma cutter.
Next up is forming the pieces, a little processing, and then welding.

Picture of a couple parts coming off the plasma table. The round one is the stone platter. The other is the ceiling above the cooking chamber.

And just for fun the other photo is a picture of the plasma cutter in action.

Offline JD

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2014, 09:59:57 AM »
Looking forward to seeing your updated design... When do expect to be ready for first fire?

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2014, 11:21:51 AM »
Hmm thanks for the input guys, I'll have to think about making it bigger. This oven is being designed exclusively for me, no plans to market this. If it works out for me a coworker might make one of his own. If someone really really really liked the design and wanted a 20" deck I could probably be convinced to fabricate one for them. Between shipping and steel costs it wouldn't be dirt cheap though.

What!?  But what about all your buddies on pm.com?  We need an oven like this too! 

Seriously I really think you are onto a great design with this prototype. It looks better that the Blackstone to me due to the movable burner and ability to direct heat top and bottom.  What temperatures are you achieving with this thing at present? 

Offline Adam T

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Re: Scorched Earth Pizza Oven
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2014, 11:35:14 AM »
Looking forward to seeing your updated design... When do expect to be ready for first fire?

It will be a little while before I first fire it up. I still need to order the stone and the rotisserie motor. This is a break-time project, so the construction will be a slow pace too. I'm really hoping to eat some pies from this oven later this spring.


 

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