Author Topic: Another Saturday night special.  (Read 743 times)

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Offline katycamp

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Another Saturday night special.
« on: December 16, 2013, 04:40:18 PM »
Since my last post, I've played with my recipe. I've been getting better at opening up , stretching out dough and found that 15 oz. of flour was yielding more than my 18 inch screen could handle! So now my present recipe is 13 oz of KASL flour, 8 oz of water, 2 tsp. of salt and 2 tsp. of sugar , 1/4 tsp of oil and 1/2 tsp of instant yeast depending upon when I make the dough. My question is : am I using too much salt and sugar for 13 oz. of flour?


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Another Saturday night special.
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2013, 04:54:39 PM »
Kate,

Your salt level is a bit over 3%. That would be too salty to my palate but on occasion I will see other members us a salt value that high. For a basic NY style pizza, I would say that a salt value of 1.75-2% is more typical.

Your sugar level is around 2%. That is fairly typical, and common for a NY style dough that is to be cold fermented for up to about three days.

You did well with your pizza. It looks very tasty.

Peter

Offline katycamp

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Re: Another Saturday night special.
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2013, 05:05:22 PM »
Pete, how does that translate in teaspoons ? I do use diamond kosher salt. And yes , I do cold ferment 3 days so I'm happy to hear my sugar measurement is ok.

Offline katycamp

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Re: Another Saturday night special.
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2013, 05:06:40 PM »
Another question: What is the least amount of flour to make an 18 inch pie?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Another Saturday night special.
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2013, 05:36:03 PM »
Pete, how does that translate in teaspoons ? I do use diamond kosher salt. And yes , I do cold ferment 3 days so I'm happy to hear my sugar measurement is ok.
Kate,

Usually when a member is silent on the type of salt, I assume it is table salt. If you we're to use a Kosher salt, such as the Morton's Kosher salt, the percent for two teaspoons would be 2.6%. If it is the Diamond Crystal Kosher salt, which is the brand of Kosher salt you are using, the percent is 1.85%. If you want to use, say, 1.75%, you would use about 1 1/3 teaspoon of Morton's Kosher salt or a bit less than two teaspoons of Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. So, it looks like you are in good shape using 2 teaspoons of the Diamond Crystal Kosher salt.

Most professionals who specialize in the NY style pizza use ordinary table salt because it is the cheapest salt available. Regular salt also dissolves more easily in the presence of water because of its much smaller particle size. For 1.75% table salt, you would use a bit over one teaspoon (1.16 teaspoons to be more precise).

Peter
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 05:38:56 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline katycamp

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Re: Another Saturday night special.
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2013, 05:54:21 PM »
Thank you so much for your input! Gotta love this site and its members. I have learned sooooo much   :)

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Another Saturday night special.
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2013, 05:57:31 PM »
Another question: What is the least amount of flour to make an 18 inch pie?
Kate,

There is no right or wrong answer to your question. It is a matter of personal preference as to how thick the crust should be and one's skill in opening up skins that are 18" in diameter. For example, many of our members might suggest a thickness factor of 0.075 for a typical NY style. That value translates to a dough ball weight of 3.14159 x 9 x 9 x 0.0750 = 19.1 ounces. However, it takes some skill to be able to open up a dough ball of that weight to 18" and not end up with thin spots or tears or rips in the skin or with a rim that is too large. Below a thickness factor of 0.075, you would really have to be skilled to be able to open the resultant dough ball to 18" without any problems.

On the other hand, if you were to use a thickness factor of say, 0.10, which some people prefer for the NY style, even if it is higher than for most NY style pizzas, the corresponding dough ball weight for an 18" pizza would be 3.14159 x 9 x 9 x 0.10 = 25.5 ounces. That dough ball would be easier to open up to 18". A good approach is to start with a higher thickness factor and gradually reduce its value as you gain experience.

If you want to pick a thickness factor, I should be able to come up with a dough formulation for you to play around with for an 18" pizza, or any other size for that matter.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 06:00:06 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Another Saturday night special.
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2013, 06:15:00 PM »
Kate,

I forgot to mention in my last post, but for a frame of reference I calculated that your recipe produces a dough ball that weighs around 21.6 ounces. The actual weight is likely to be a bit less because of minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. But if we assume the dough ball weight is 21.6 ounces and the dough is used to make an 18" pizza, the corresponding thickness factor is 21.6/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.0849. That value might tell you whether you should go up or down from that number.

Peter

Offline katycamp

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Re: Another Saturday night special.
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2013, 07:53:22 PM »
Pete, I get very confused about the thickness factor( I really don't understand it!) But you helped me , when you stated the weight of the dough. I started out making my pizza with 15 oz. of flour( weight was about 24 or 25 oz.). As my stretching technique improved , the pizza got too big so I reduced the flour. I guess it's trial and error. I want a thin to medium crust. I do like the 13 oz recipe but sometimes I don't stretch it out evenly. Practice makes perfect but I want to know when it will get perfect. I've been making a saturday night pizza for the last 20 Years ! It was only until I stumbled upon this site that it all came together.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Another Saturday night special.
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 11:26:05 AM »
Pete, I get very confused about the thickness factor( I really don't understand it!) But you helped me , when you stated the weight of the dough. I started out making my pizza with 15 oz. of flour( weight was about 24 or 25 oz.). As my stretching technique improved , the pizza got too big so I reduced the flour. I guess it's trial and error. I want a thin to medium crust. I do like the 13 oz recipe but sometimes I don't stretch it out evenly. Practice makes perfect but I want to know when it will get perfect. I've been making a saturday night pizza for the last 20 Years ! It was only until I stumbled upon this site that it all came together.

Kate,

I wouldn't be too concerned at this point about the thickness factor. The thickness factor is just a way of determining how much dough to use to make a particular pizza of a given size. The value of the thickness factor will vary by pizza type because not all pizzas have the identical crust thickness. The technical term for thickness factor is "density loading" factor. That is the expression that Tom Lehmann uses. I decided to use the expression "thickness factor" because I was afraid that peoples' eyes would glaze over or they would nod off if they saw the expression "density loading". If you ever get to the point of using the dough calculating tools at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html, which incorporate a Thickness Factor option, that would be the time to become more familiar with the thickness factor concept. In  the meantime, if you are interested in knowing more about the thickness factor, you might read and study the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17813.msg172515.html#msg172515.

In case you are interested, this is what your recipe looks like in baker's percent format:

KASL Flour (100%):
Water (61.5385%):
IDY (0.40865%):
Diamond Crystal Kosher Salt (1.84506%):
Olive Oil (0.30525%):
Sugar (2.16346%):
Total (166.26092%):
368.55 g  |  13 oz | 0.81 lbs
226.8 g  |  8 oz | 0.5 lbs
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
6.8 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
1.12 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
7.97 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
612.75 g | 21.61 oz | 1.35 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 18" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 21.61/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.084922; no bowl residue compensation

If you decide that you would like to change the percents of any of the above ingredients, for example, to lower the salt to 1.75% or 2%, you can use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to do so.  You just change the percents. If you decide that you would like to try a higher or lower value for the thickness factor noted above, then you can use the Thickness Factor option of the expanded dough calculating tool. You can also use the bowl residue compensation feature to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough (such as some of the dough sticking to things like the sides of the mixing bowl, the attachments, work surfaces, etc.). For a NY style dough prepared in a stand mixer, I have found that a bowl residue compensation factor of 1.5% is about right. That value usually produces as bit more dough than I want but I simply scale the dough ball weight to the desired value (21.61 ounces in your case) on my digital scale.

Now that I see what you recipe looks like in baker's percent format, you might revisit the amount of oil you are using. An oil value of about 0.31% (I am assuming olive oil but the numbers will be very similar for other oils) is quite low and perhaps can't be readily detected in the finished crust. Some pizza operators who specialize in the NY style frequently omit the oil altogether but other operators like to use something like 1-3% oil. That makes the dough a bit more extensible and it also provides some flavor to the finished crust.

Peter


Offline katycamp

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Re: Another Saturday night special.
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 12:05:37 PM »
All I can say is WOW! You have made a humble home baker wiser. I tried to use the calculator awhile ago and was confused about the percentages for the minor ingredients and the thickness factor but will now revisit it with a little more knowledge. Thank you for this interesting conversation. I try to read many of your posts but now that it affects me personally, it has become more meaningful.

Offline andyt

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Re: Another Saturday night special.
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 04:21:00 PM »
I learned so much from this thread, thank you so much.

I have been making pizza at home for 30 years.  My pizzas are 14" X 16" = 224 sq in with a dough ball weight of 9.17 oz, giving me a thickness factor of 0.041.  Now I know.

Many Thanks
andyt