Author Topic: No bromate!  (Read 2869 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12514
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
No bromate!
« on: December 19, 2013, 09:02:15 PM »
Is KASL" high- gluten" a good substitute for NY pizza if one is unable to acquire bromated flour?

http://shop.grainmill.coop/king-arthur-flour-sir-lancelot-hi-gluten-flour-50lb.html
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2415
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 09:18:58 PM »
I don't know about the King Arthur flour, but I've found that Power flour is not bad.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12514
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 09:24:37 PM »
I don't know about the King Arthur flour, but I've found that Power flour is not bad.
Thanks Ryan.....the KASL is the only "commercial" flour I can get locally for right now.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2415
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 10:10:38 PM »
Well, I guess you should have come up to Columbus (Newark) the other day and gotten some Full Strength from Walter.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2013, 10:14:53 PM »
Bob, that link you posted. How far are you from Wake Forest?

http://shop.grainmill.coop/general-mills-gm-full-strength-flour-50lb.html

It's about 12 more dollars than it should be, but this will outperform KASL.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12514
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 10:26:45 PM »
Bob, that link you posted. How far are you from Wake Forest?

http://shop.grainmill.coop/general-mills-gm-full-strength-flour-50lb.html

It's about 12 more dollars than it should be, but this will outperform KASL.
That place is my source I'm talking about here, Scott, only a nice 20 min. drive through the country. It's a co-op place and you have to wait until enough folks order to make up a pallets worth before they'll have it shipped down from up North and there is like ZERO pizza makers round here.  :(
The KASL is the only "real"(?) flour they do stock and one can buy it by the pound too.

I guess that's what the country grannies are using to make their bread with.....gimmie my KASL sonny boy!!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 10:30:51 PM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline kerrymarcy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 86
  • I can't and won't stop eating pizza!
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 10:45:10 PM »
Bob,

I'm sorry that you cannot acquire bromated flour from around your area.  I recently purchased Bouncer flour (bromated and bleached) from my local GFS marketplace.   I have been using KABF for the most part along with some local flours, but IMHO, Bouncer flour kicks butt on oven spring and moist crumb and seems to have a more "nutty" flavor (for lack of better words). I fired up the BS today and honestly made my best pizza to date using Bouncer.  I don't know if the bromate is responsible for all of this, or if it's all because of the Blackstone.  At about $10.00 for a 25lb. bag, I'm a customer.  I know that you live in NC and there is a distributor in Piedmont, SC which isn't too far away from you. If they sell to the public, shipping may be very reasonable.  Anyway, if your interested here is the center.

Greenville Distribution Center
920 Matrix Pkwy.
Piedmont, SC 29673
Phone: (864) 422-5900

Kerry


Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12514
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 10:47:43 PM »
Thank you for your help Kerry.   :chef:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24220
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2013, 10:56:08 PM »
Bob,

Steve used KASL for some of his pies at Reply 9 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23878.msg246727.html#msg246727  At Steve's post at Reply 17 he had been bouncing back and forth the between the Occident flour and KASL flour for those pizzas at Reply 16 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23878.msg249958.html#msg249958  More of Steve's KASL pies at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14444.msg144118.html#msg144118  and many other posts here on the forum.

I also liked KASL for NY style pizzas on my preferment Lehmann thread and other NY style pizzas I made.

You might want to look at ThunderStik's thread about using KASL at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9768.msg84804.html#msg84804 

Many other members also have made really good NY style pizzas with KASL.

You have a BS now so you can make almost any kind of pizza with any kind of flour you want.   ;D

Norma


Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12514
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 10:59:27 PM »
Bob,

Steve used KASL for some of his pies at Reply 9 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23878.msg246727.html#msg246727  At Steve's post at Reply 17 he had been bouncing back and forth the between the Occident flour and KASL flour for those pizzas at Reply 16 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23878.msg249958.html#msg249958  More of Steve's KASL pies at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14444.msg144118.html#msg144118  and many other posts here on the forum.

I also liked KASL for NY style pizzas on my preferment Lehmann thread and other NY style pizzas I made.

You might want to look at ThunderStik's thread about using KASL at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9768.msg84804.html#msg84804 

Many other members also have made really good NY style pizzas with KASL.

You have a BS now so you can make almost any kind of pizza with any kind of flour you want.   ;D

Norma
Well thank you good look'in, as usual....you be awesome!  :chef:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24220
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2013, 11:14:47 PM »
Bob,

This thread is from a long while ago but I did try Glutenboy's Formula with KASL at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10697.msg95107.html#msg95107 

Get that BS fired up!  :-D

I wish I had some KASL to try out since I own a BS.

I could go on for a long while finding threads of NY style pizzas made with KASL.

Norma

scott123

  • Guest
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2013, 08:57:28 AM »
Bob, as you can see, there isn't a consensus on the topic of KASL for NY style.  You have my opinion. FWIW, here are two more.

Tom Lehmann, in his posts here and on PMQ, has never mentioned KASL.  He has spoken about All Trumps, though, which is 14% protein (KASL is 14.2%).

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10668&start=15

Quote
[In reference to Seal of Minnesota flour]It is a little on the low side protein content wise for an authentic dine in N.Y. but if you're into any delivery, it will probably work better than something like All Trumps as the pizza won't be quite as tough and chewy after a half hout or more in a box.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26701.msg269842.html#msg269842

Quote
To add to Tin Roof's comments, Harvest King flour has about 12% protein content while All Trumps has 14+ % protein content. I've used both very successfully to make thin crust pizzas of all kinds, but when it comes to making thick crust/pan style pizzas my preference turns to Harvest King as it does not give the excessively tough and chewy characteristic that I get from All Trumps in this application.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26935.msg272694.html#msg272694

Quote
My personal favorite flour to use for pan style and thick crust pizzas is a flour that comes in at between 11% protein on the low side to about 12.5% on the high side. My experience has been when I use a higher protein flour with my dough management process I get a finished crust that is too chewy for my likes.

Now, Tom is referencing pan and thick crust pizza here, not NY, and he does recommend All Trumps for NY style pizza (that isn't going to be eaten a half an hour or more after it's made), but he is pretty clear about All Trump's propensity for toughness.  KASL, with .2% MORE protein, has an even greater propensity.

I should also point out that Tom tends to advocate a longer baked, very midwestern-ish nouveau NY style. As you extend the bake time beyond 6 minutes, there tends to be a tenderizing effect on the crust. This is a big reason why some forum members are happier with KASL than others.  For the faster baked old school NY style that I strongly endorse (and that can be achieved in the BS), though, All Trumps and KASL have a very strong propensity towards shoe leather.

Scott R is one of the most respected voices on this forum:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10630.msg94506.html#msg94506

Quote
[In reference to 12% protein Harvest King flour]Honestly, I think you will like it better than KASL

KASL is a great flour, but it can get too chewy if your pizza/bread sits around for a while, or if it is cooked to the point of New Haven/ Totono's style charring.

I think where KASL shines is if you are trying to make an authentic NY style bagel.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 09:07:01 AM by scott123 »

scott123

  • Guest
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2013, 08:59:05 AM »
Bob, occident flour tends to be popular at co-ops and general stores. They don't stock that?

Online jkb

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 684
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2013, 09:37:10 AM »
I have a sack of Bromated All Trumps coming today as part of an order from Pennmac.  Even factoring in the shipping charge for the entire order, it's $1/lb..  That's about what I pay for KA at the supermarket.  They also have some awesome taleggio - smells like something I won't mention, but man it's good!

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2675
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2013, 11:20:49 AM »
I have a sack of Bromated All Trumps coming today as part of an order from Pennmac.  Even factoring in the shipping charge for the entire order, it's $1/lb..  That's about what I pay for KA at the supermarket.  They also have some awesome taleggio - smells like something I won't mention, but man it's good!

Some Taleggio that smells worse than feet huh?  That must be some real good stuff.  Haha.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12514
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2013, 12:26:46 PM »
Bob,

This thread is from a long while ago but I did try Glutenboy's Formula with KASL at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10697.msg95107.html#msg95107 

Get that BS fired up!  :-D

I wish I had some KASL to try out since I own a BS.

I could go on for a long while finding threads of NY style pizzas made with KASL.

Norma
Thanks again Norma....I wish I knew how you are able to come up with all these links you always give to everyone;and so fast too!
Yes, I want to get this thing rolling...I have fired the BS up twice now so far though, to cook steaks. Man, that thing is a BEAST ain't it Norma? I would have liked to see your face the first time you dialed it up into afterburner.... :o  I'll bet you thought it was going to take off over the yard!  :chef:

btw, I can send ya a couple lbs. of KASL any time...just say the word.  :)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12514
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2013, 12:29:46 PM »
Bob, occident flour tends to be popular at co-ops and general stores. They don't stock that?
I'm going over there right now and see what the deal is. Appreciate all your inputs on this topic Scott, you know your stuff bruddah!  :chef:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline SurlyBastage

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Raleigh, NC
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2013, 01:57:24 PM »
Bob,

If that does not work out and you donít mind a trip to Raleigh, Red Hill General Store -  http://www.redhillgeneralstore.com/bulkfoods/flour/Flours.htm -  near Durant/Falls of Neuse has the following flours (and others) that can be ordered and picked up in-store w/ no shipping charges.

Conagra - Kryol, King Midas Special, Occident

General Mills - All Trumps, Full Strength

King Arthur - Sir Lancelot

The Occident unbleached is available in 25 pound bags, the rest are 50 pounders.

You can also order Detroit style pans there - http://www.redhillgeneralstore.com/housewares/kitchen/kitacc/Blue-Steel-Utility-Dripping-Pans.htm

Jay

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12514
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2013, 02:03:27 PM »
Bob,

If that does not work out and you donít mind a trip to Raleigh, Red Hill General Store -  http://www.redhillgeneralstore.com/bulkfoods/flour/Flours.htm -  near Durant/Falls of Neuse has the following flours (and others) that can be ordered and picked up in-store w/ no shipping charges.

Conagra - Kryol, King Midas Special, Occident

General Mills - All Trumps, Full Strength

King Arthur - Sir Lancelot

The Occident unbleached is available in 25 pound bags, the rest are 50 pounders.

You can also order Detroit style pans there - http://www.redhillgeneralstore.com/housewares/kitchen/kitacc/Blue-Steel-Utility-Dripping-Pans.htm

Jay
Now that's what I'm talk'in bout....Jay, you are da Man baby!!  ;D
I'm so happy I could kiss you....well, maybe at least jus a man hug.  8)
Thank you!
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12514
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2013, 02:45:00 PM »
Well, I guess you should have come up to Columbus (Newark) the other day and gotten some Full Strength from Walter.
I was waiting for you to bring me some!  :P
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline SurlyBastage

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Raleigh, NC
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2013, 03:29:27 PM »
Glad I can help.

I will take the man hug, and any local cheese/pepperoni resources you are hiding in your pockets.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12514
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2013, 03:50:22 PM »
any local cheese/pepperoni resources you are hiding in your pockets.
Sure...just tried Sam's club Frigo lmps cheese yesterday and it is better than any local grocery store cheese and I have tried them all over many years. It is lmps though...perfect for my Chi-town thins.
I have a Penn Mac order up on que but it is so hard to press the "order now" button when they tack on additional 35% for shipping....60 dollars of food becomes a hundred bucks and that really pisses Bob off. Do you have a deep freezer...I have a big one and a couple offers/connections with out of state members who can get "the goods". Think it over and get back to me...gonna put Penn on hold for a couple days; there's got to be a better way.  ;)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24220
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2013, 04:44:15 PM »
Thanks again Norma....I wish I knew how you are able to come up with all these links you always give to everyone;and so fast too!
Yes, I want to get this thing rolling...I have fired the BS up twice now so far though, to cook steaks. Man, that thing is a BEAST ain't it Norma? I would have liked to see your face the first time you dialed it up into afterburner.... :o  I'll bet you thought it was going to take off over the yard!  :chef:

btw, I can send ya a couple lbs. of KASL any time...just say the word.  :)

Bob,

The way I usually come up with the links is I remember somewhat about what was posted in the years I was a member on the forum.  I usually do an advanced search using a members name that might have done something or used something that I thought was good. 

Good you want to get your BS rocking and rolling.  8) I agree the BS is a beast.  I loved the jet engine roar of the burner the first time I fired it up and still do.   >:D

You can try any flour that members think you should for a NY style pizza.  I just wanted to add something about KASL though.  I recall when Steve and I went to Pizza Brain and saw Paulie Gee there.  We all did agreed that Pizza Brain's NY style of pizza was something special.  You might be surprised but there was a dumpster running over with KASL empty bags.  I don't know what Pizza Brain uses now but would think they did use KASL then.

Thanks for the offer of KASL. 

Norma   

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12514
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2013, 05:00:54 PM »
   You might be surprised but there was a dumpster running over with KASL empty bags.  I don't know what Pizza Brain uses now but would think they did use KASL then.




  Those Pizza Brain guys are such jokesters I wouldn't be surprised if they got those empty bags from some other pizzeria and "planted" them around their own dumpster...Hahaa!  >:D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline mschvarcz

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3
Re: No bromate!
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2013, 01:02:10 AM »
Scott,

There is a Bakery name Alteriís Bakery in Watertown, NY that has been making wonderful Italian bread for years.

The Flour they use is the following.

General Mills Full Strength Flour, Bleached/ Bromated/ Enriched/ Malted 50 lb [53381000]

PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS
1.Color - Clean, creamy white, free of excessive bran specks.
2. The product shall be free of rancid, bitter, musty or other undesirable flavors or odors.
3. The product shall be as free of all types of foreign material as can be achieved through GMPs.
4. Falling Number - 220 - 260 sec.

INGREDIENT LEGEND
BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, IRON, POTASSIUM BROMATE, THIAMIN
MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID.


CHEMICAL COMPOSITION (14.0% Moisture basis)
Moisture 14.0%
Maximum Protein 12.6% +/- 0.2%
Ash 0.55% +/- 0.05%

Which of the following flours would produce better flavor and texture for pizza crust for true NY Pizza?

A. Full Strength Flour, Bleached/ Bromated/ Enriched/ Malted.

B. All-purpose Unbleached which Peter Reinhart Recommends in his book(AP).

I would just like to understand the distinctions between the two.

Thank you,
Micky