Author Topic: Extended Fermentation Time  (Read 1668 times)

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Offline sb 44 champs

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Extended Fermentation Time
« on: December 20, 2013, 06:48:47 AM »
I have been making pizza dough for a year or two now. I want to experiment with longer cold ferments. The longest so far has been 3 days. I would like to extend that to 5-7 and eventually 10 days.
The last dough I made was in the fridge for two days and it started to get large air bubbles. I was afraid it would over-ferment so I used it on the 2nd day.
Here's the formula I used. Could only get it to stretch to 10.5". Didn't really have much strength. I suppose it's the flour. I used GM Bread flour. Don't have access to much else around here. Sometimes Wally World carriers KABF or KAAP. This formula did produce a nice brown color crust with a crispy bottom.
12" Pizza/ TF .11
Flour 195.34g
Water 121.11g (62%)
IDY .98g
Salt 2.93g
Olive Oil 4.49g
Cane Syrup 8.79g (similar to molasses)
VWG 5.37g
Semolina 13.67g
Total 352.69g
I would like to eliminate the olive oil. Would this formula be good for a 5-7 cold ferment or possibly a 10 day cold ferment?


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2013, 07:54:45 AM »
Eddie,

Your recipe shows a nominal hydration of 62%, but that is not the actual hydration value. The reason is that the semolina flour and the VWG also have to be hydrated. Also, the cane syrup contains around 25% water (my best estimate), which contributes to the hydration of the dry ingredients mentioned above, and the oil also has a "wetting" effect on the dough. So, by my best calculation, the official hydration value of your dough is around 57.5%. If you add in the effects of the oil, the "effective" hydration is around 59.6%. The actual hydration value may differ somewhat from my calculated value because the semolina flour and the VWG do not have the exact same absorption characteristics as The Gold Medal bread flour, but whatever the actual hydration value, it should work with your flour. 

There are several ways of extending the fermentation window, including, alone or in some combination: using less yeast, using cold water, using a metal storage container, adding the IDY at the end of the dough preparation process, or substituting ADY for IDY but using it dry, not prehydrated in warm water. Having a refrigerator that operates at around 35-40 degrees F is also a plus. Since you are currently using about 0.46% IDY (my best calculation), you are unlikely to get to 5-7 days or 10 days. The key factors to getting to long fermentation windows is mainly a combination of low yeast quantity and keeping everything cold, and possibly coupled by the strategic use of the yeast as mentioned above.

If you decide to jettison the olive oil, I would replace it with water so that the dough is adequately hydrated. 

Peter

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2013, 08:31:37 AM »
Thanks for the info Peter. When I mixed up the dough it was a bit on the dry side as I did not take into account the VWG and the semolina. I did add a bit more water but I probably could have added more.
If I eliminated the oil and increased the hydration to 68-70% and reduce the IDY to .25 or so, do you think that would be sufficient to extend the fermentation time to 5-7 days or even 10 days?
My fridge stays in the 36-40 degree range and I could use cold water vs 98-100 degree water and add in the yeast at the end of the prep process.
Also, i will see if Walmart has any of the KABF or KAAP. That's about the best I can get and sometimes they are either out or don't carry it.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 09:04:12 AM »
Eddie,

I think your plan has a chance of working but you might want to reduce the amount of yeast even further, maybe to 0.20% to start. However, one of the things I have learned about long-fermented doughs is that one can use a normal amount of yeast (for a shorter fermentation) yet achieve a long fermentation window if the yeast is added late in the dough making process and the water is kept very cold. You can see an example of this at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. In fact, if you want to learn the principles of long-fermented doughs, that is the thread you would want to read. The thread starts at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html.

Getting back to your proposed change in the nominal hydration value, I think I would use 68% but set aside another 2% water in case you need it.

I also neglected to mention in my last post that it is also possible to extend the fermentation window by leaving the lids off of the storage containers when placed in the refrigerator for about 1-2 hours. You can then put the lids on. Another way to extend the fermentation window is to place the dough balls in the freezer compartment of your refrigerator (maybe even along with the storage containers) for about 30-45 minutes (depending on the dough ball size) and then move to the refrigerator compartment.

All of the above matters involve a delicate balancing act between yeast quantities and temperatures and dough preparation methods, so I hope you will report back on your results.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 08:54:28 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 09:36:32 AM »
Thanks again Peter.
I will make a dough ball this afternoon and follow your direction. Will report back.
Thanks
Eddie

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2013, 06:00:18 PM »
Made one dough ball.
Here's the formula.
GMBF 235.23g
Water 159.95 g (68%) 40 degrees
IDY .47g (.20)
Salt 4.12g
Cane Syrup 10.59g
VWG 6.47g
Added dry ingredients minus the IDY and mixed for 30 sec. Added the liquid ingredients and mixed in the kitchen aid for 3 minutes on med speed. Added an additional 2g of water as the dough was pretty dry. Added the IDY and mixed another 3 minutes. Removed from bowl and hand kneaded for 2 minutes.
Placed in a lightly oiled bowl and placed in freezer for 20 minutes then uncovered in the fridge. Will let it sit uncovered for 2 hrs then cover for the remainder of the fermentation period.
Dough temp before placing in freezer: 70 degrees
dough temp after 20 freezer period:    60 degrees
Next time, will get the water at 33 degrees in an attempt to keep the final dough temp under 65 degrees. I also should mention the flour was used right out of the fridge.
Will take a picture each day and post to keep track of the progress.

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 09:31:41 PM »
Eddie,

I see that you omitted the oil but did you also omit the semolina flour?

Peter

Online sonny.eymann

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 10:27:49 PM »
I don't think most people have a good understanding of yeast. The start amount of yeast is important but it is just as important as to how the dough is handled after mixed.

first example:  1 % is a lot of yeast but if you mix with cold water and a small batch and get it to a 35 degree refrigerator quickly you can do a 1 or maybe 2 day cold ferment without losing control and over proofing. that dough will have a lot of spring when used.

second example: .25% yeast is a little yeast and if you mix like the first example you can get a long cold ferment without losing control and may never lose control if at 35 degree even at a week.

third example: .25% yeast mixed in large batch with warm water left on the counter for a hour before cold ferment you could lose control in a day in the refrigerator that is at 42 dregrees

The point that I am trying to make  it is the total procedure not just the start amount of yeast.

I have tried every dough fermenting time  from a few hours to 10 days.
I see no advantage after 2 days.
I mix dough mostly at night and use the next night or the following night both are good with good handling and flavor.
I have also made dough that is proofed in a refrigerator set at 55 degrees and arrived at good dough in about 6 to 8 hours but the total procedure is what is important

Sonny
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 10:30:00 PM by sonny.eymann »

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2013, 07:12:00 AM »
Eddie,

I see that you omitted the oil but did you also omit the semolina flour?

Peter
Peter,

I did eliminate the semolina. Wanted to see how it is without this time.

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2013, 07:19:46 AM »
I don't think most people have a good understanding of yeast. The start amount of yeast is important but it is just as important as to how the dough is handled after mixed.

first example:  1 % is a lot of yeast but if you mix with cold water and a small batch and get it to a 35 degree refrigerator quickly you can do a 1 or maybe 2 day cold ferment without losing control and over proofing. that dough will have a lot of spring when used.

second example: .25% yeast is a little yeast and if you mix like the first example you can get a long cold ferment without losing control and may never lose control if at 35 degree even at a week.

third example: .25% yeast mixed in large batch with warm water left on the counter for a hour before cold ferment you could lose control in a day in the refrigerator that is at 42 dregrees

The point that I am trying to make  it is the total procedure not just the start amount of yeast.

I have tried every dough fermenting time  from a few hours to 10 days.
I see no advantage after 2 days.
I mix dough mostly at night and use the next night or the following night both are good with good handling and flavor.
I have also made dough that is proofed in a refrigerator set at 55 degrees and arrived at good dough in about 6 to 8 hours but the total procedure is what is important

Sonny
Sonny thanks for the info. I've had a difficult time getting the dough right. I usually aim for a two day cold ferment but many times something comes up on the 2nd day and I can't use the dough so it might sit in the fridge for another day or two. For this dough, I just wanted to see if I could take it to 5 or 7 days without it over-proofing. If the flavor is no better than with a 2 or 3 day cold ferment then I'll scrap the extended ferment time. I just find my dough lacks flavor. I think part of it is the crappy flour that is available in my area. Wally world carries KABF and KAAP but it is hit and miss. I've read that a lot of people use All Trumps but that is not available in my area unless I order.
I'm hoping I can take this dough to at least next Friday but I'm not sure if it can last that long. As for temps, my fridge stays in the 38-40 range and its in the back of the fridge so I am hoping the temp stays consistent.


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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2013, 05:52:35 PM »
I have use all types of flour.

I don't like the high protein flour?  but it does have it place, if you are hand tossing it is very near a must. but it is a more chewy crust.

Bread flour is near the same as HP flour.

AP flour unbleached forms a more tender crust. I like KAAP.

Pizza is a total experience  but if you want more flavor in the crust than a 2 day ferment. there are ways. the first is the salt. in a commercial setting  1.75%  is standard but at home try 2.5% it helps without being salty.
there are other ways to add flavor, add up to 3% garlic power. add a tsp of dry basil
Also I have substituted 4 to 5% Adobo seasoning for the salt and sugar. there is both in Adobo plus other things

Sonny

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2013, 06:06:07 PM »
I did eliminate the semolina. Wanted to see how it is without this time.
Eddie,

I am surprised that your dough was dry. Based on the ingredient quantities you mentioned, and ignoring the added 2 grams of water for the moment, this is what I get as an approximation of your hydration:

[(159.95 + 0.25 x 10.59)/[(235.23 + 6.47)] = 162.5975/241.7 = 67.27%.

Adding in the 2 grams of water yields a hydration value of 68.1%.

Peter

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 06:11:32 PM »
Peter,
Don't know what it is but the last two times I made dough it came out dry and additional water was needed.
Maybe my scale is off but I've been using the same scale for two or three years.
I usually stay in the 62% range but like the higher hydration doughs better.
This dough was very sticky but I figured that given the hydration.

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2013, 06:13:51 PM »

I have use all types of flour.

I don't like the high protein flour?  but it does have it place, if you are hand tossing it is very near a must. but it is a more chewy crust.

Bread flour is near the same as HP flour.

AP flour unbleached forms a more tender crust. I like KAAP.

Pizza is a total experience  but if you want more flavor in the crust than a 2 day ferment. there are ways. the first is the salt. in a commercial setting  1.75%  is standard but at home try 2.5% it helps without being salty.
there are other ways to add flavor, add up to 3% garlic power. add a tsp of dry basil
Also I have substituted 4 to 5% Adobo seasoning for the salt and sugar. there is both in Adobo plus other things

Sonny

Sonny thanks for the info. I have experimented with adding garlic powder into the dough and I liked the results. I have not used adobo in dough. It does sound interesting.

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 06:14:58 PM »
Here's the dough at 24 hrs. Not much change other than it spread out.

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2013, 06:21:27 PM »
Here's the dough at 24 hrs. Not much change other than it spread out.
Eddie,

The spreading of the dough would be quite normal if its hydration is anywhere near what I calculated. A more highly hydrated dough will also ferment faster because of the increased water mobility and its effects on the biochemical actions.

Peter

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2013, 06:25:05 PM »
So with the higher hydration I doubt this dough will be able to last until next Friday or Saturday.
I calculated 62% hydration so by adding 2 additional grams of water would increase the hydration by roughly 6%?
This entire pizza dough making process is more difficult than I thought. At least I am having fun trying.

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2013, 06:52:46 PM »
So with the higher hydration I doubt this dough will be able to last until next Friday or Saturday.
I calculated 62% hydration so by adding 2 additional grams of water would increase the hydration by roughly 6%?
This entire pizza dough making process is more difficult than I thought. At least I am having fun trying.
Eddie,

How did you get a hydration of 62%?

It doesn't necessarily follow that a dough with a high hydration value can't ferment for a long time. For example, in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370 I described a dough that made it out to over 10 days of cold fermentation with a hydration value of 65% (plus 1% oil). It's much like Sonny said. You can use large amounts of yeast or, as in your case, a high hydration (assuming my calculations were correct), and control other variables so that you still end up with a dough that can have a long window of fermentation.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 07:17:10 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2013, 06:57:23 PM »

Eddie,

How did you get a hydration of 62%?

It doesn't necessarily follow that a dough with a high hydration value can't ferment for a long time. For example, in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370 I described a dough that made it out to over 10 days of cold fermentation with a hydration value of 65%. It's much like Sonny said. You can use large amounts of yeast or, as in your case, a high hydration (assuming my calculations were correct), and control other variables so that you still end up with a dough that can have a long window of fermentation.

Peter
Peter, you are right on the hydration. When I recalculated the formula I must have changed the hydration to 68%.

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Extended Fermentation Time
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2013, 04:55:21 PM »
Now at the two day mark. No change from the one day mark. Dough looks the same.


 

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