Author Topic: Long room temp rise without overfermenting  (Read 622 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« on: June 09, 2015, 10:08:12 AM »
I want to do a 24-36hr rise without getting that alcohol smell in my dough.  I'm trying to achieve a dough that has a deep beer flavor.  Do I just need to add more sugar to my dough so the yeast have plenty of food?

Will I get a deeper beer flavor if I increase the yeast (increase of sugar as well) in my dough?

Nate
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Offline jsaras

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2015, 11:41:11 AM »
Will you be using any beer?
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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2015, 11:54:35 AM »
Nate,

Is there a particular style of pizza you have in mind?

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2015, 03:01:28 PM »
Nate,

Is there a particular style of pizza you have in mind?

Peter

Deep dish and I'm using fresh yeast.

Nate
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2015, 03:01:56 PM »
Will you be using any beer?

No, just fresh yeast.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 03:31:57 PM »
I don't know how you would get "beer" flavor with no alcohol smell. Wouldn't the two necessarily go hand-in-hand?
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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2015, 03:42:08 PM »
Nate,

How much oil are you talking about?

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2015, 06:32:16 PM »
Nate,

How much oil are you talking about?

Peter

20-23%.  Got some really nice flavor from my last attempt but want it to be stronger.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2015, 06:37:02 PM »
I don't know how you would get "beer" flavor with no alcohol smell. Wouldn't the two necessarily go hand-in-hand?

Perhaps they do.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2015, 08:10:50 PM »
20-23%.  Got some really nice flavor from my last attempt but want it to be stronger.
Nate,

I think the major problem with what you want to do is the amount of oil and what it does to yeast fermentation. Maybe a few examples will frame the issue.

When I was concocting various Papa John's clone doughs, one of my experiments was to make a PJ clone dough that fermented at room temperature for about 24 hours. I described that clone dough at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60197#msg60197. If you look at the dough formulation in that post, you will see that I used a bit over 7% oil. But the yeast (IDY) was only 0.01250%, or a bit less that 1/64 teaspoon for a dough ball that weighed a little over 22 ounces. That dough was made in the month of July, which is often the hottest or next hottest month in Texas, but even if I adjusted the amount of IDY upwardly for a cooler temperature, the total amount of yeast would still have been very small. But in both cases, 7% oil would not impede the fermentation process.

Now, fast forward to some of the experiments that Norma and I and other members conducted on the Home Run Inn clone doughs. In the later experiments in the HRI clone thread we used about 19% oil. But the amount of yeast was about 2% for IDY, about the same for ADY used dry, and about 2.5% ADY if rehydrated. These amounts were for doughs that were cold fermented for about 2-3 days. What was especially interesting is that the doughs after 2-3 days of cold fermentation were firm to the touch. They rose but they didn't blow the lids off of containers. I might add that the use of ADY was mainly because ADY has more dead cells than IDY, which we believe provided more flavor to the finished crust, especially in light of the large amounts used. And I don't recall an alcohol odor.

My takeaway from the above experiments was that very large amounts of oil can have a major effect on the fermentation process. But it is hard to know how to apply the lessons we learned to your specific case. For example, if we had used 20-23% oil for the HRI experiments, we most likely would have had to increase the amount of yeast to compensate for the higher oil levels. Say, it is 3% ADY (prehydrated, not dry). From there, you might scale that number back for a room temperature fermentation of 24-36 hours. I'm guessing here, but maybe something like 0.70%, or 1.4% if using fresh yeast. Ordinarily, that would be a large value. But it has to be high enough to work while under the influence of 20-23% oil, even at room temperature.

One way to answer your own question is to simply try out a value of cake yeast and note how the dough behaves over the course of the 24-36 hours of room temperature fermentation. You should note the room temperature at which the dough ferments and when the dough reaches a certain stage of development, such as a doubling of the dough. You should note how many hours it took to reach that point. With that information, it might be possible to come up with a better number to try for the fresh yeast.

Of course, another possibility is if another member has made deep-dish doughs that were fermented for something like 24-36 hours at room temperature and can provide some guidance on the amount of yeast to use.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2015, 08:55:56 PM »
Nate,

I think the major problem with what you want to do is the amount of oil and what it does to yeast fermentation. Maybe a few examples will frame the issue.

When I was concocting various Papa John's clone doughs, one of my experiments was to make a PJ clone dough that fermented at room temperature for about 24 hours. I described that clone dough at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60197#msg60197. If you look at the dough formulation in that post, you will see that I used a bit over 7% oil. But the yeast (IDY) was only 0.01250%, or a bit less that 1/64 teaspoon for a dough ball that weighed a little over 22 ounces. That dough was made in the month of July, which is often the hottest or next hottest month in Texas, but even if I adjusted the amount of IDY upwardly for a cooler temperature, the total amount of yeast would still have been very small. But in both cases, 7% oil would not impede the fermentation process.

Now, fast forward to some of the experiments that Norma and I and other members conducted on the Home Run Inn clone doughs. In the later experiments in the HRI clone thread we used about 19% oil. But the amount of yeast was about 2% for IDY, about the same for ADY used dry, and about 2.5% ADY if rehydrated. These amounts were for doughs that were cold fermented for about 2-3 days. What was especially interesting is that the doughs after 2-3 days of cold fermentation were firm to the touch. They rose but they didn't blow the lids off of containers. I might add that the use of ADY was mainly because ADY has more dead cells than IDY, which we believe provided more flavor to the finished crust, especially in light of the large amounts used. And I don't recall an alcohol odor.

My takeaway from the above experiments was that very large amounts of oil can have a major effect on the fermentation process. But it is hard to know how to apply the lessons we learned to your specific case. For example, if we had used 20-23% oil for the HRI experiments, we most likely would have had to increase the amount of yeast to compensate for the higher oil levels. Say, it is 3% ADY (prehydrated, not dry). From there, you might scale that number back for a room temperature fermentation of 24-36 hours. I'm guessing here, but maybe something like 0.70%, or 1.4% if using fresh yeast. Ordinarily, that would be a large value. But it has to be high enough to work while under the influence of 20-23% oil, even at room temperature.

One way to answer your own question is to simply try out a value of cake yeast and note how the dough behaves over the course of the 24-36 hours of room temperature fermentation. You should note the room temperature at which the dough ferments and when the dough reaches a certain stage of development, such as a doubling of the dough. You should note how many hours it took to reach that point. With that information, it might be possible to come up with a better number to try for the fresh yeast.

Of course, another possibility is if another member has made deep-dish doughs that were fermented for something like 24-36 hours at room temperature and can provide some guidance on the amount of yeast to use.

Peter

Peter,

Does the alcohol smell come from the yeast running out of sugar to eat?  If I increased the sugar will that help me to get to that long of a rise?  The 12hr rise produced a really good flavor.  Better than ADY or IDY that I have attempted for that long.  Cold rises are completely different when it comes to deep dish.  I just don't like what it produces at all.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 08:57:36 PM by pythonic »
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Offline hodgey1

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2015, 09:14:58 PM »
Nate, yeast convert sugars into both carbon dioxide and alcohol. More sugar= more alcohol and carbon dioxide.

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2015, 09:25:41 PM »
Peter,

Does the alcohol smell come from the yeast running out of sugar to eat?  If I increased the sugar will that help me to get to that long of a rise?  The 12hr rise produced a really good flavor.  Better than ADY or IDY that I have attempted for that long.  Cold rises are completely different when it comes to deep dish.  I just don't like what it produces at all.
Nate,

I would think that there are enough natural sugars released by the action of enzymes on the damaged starch to feed the yeast and produce carbon dioxide and ethyl alcohol over the time period you contemplate, Adding sugar (sucrose) to the dough is a possibility but only if the yeast is likely to run out of food before it is ready to be used and, as a result, is overfermented. In a cold fermentation environment, it usually isn't necessary to add sugar (at about 1-2%) to the dough until the cold fermentation period exceeds about three days. I suppose your dough might benefit from added sugar if your 24-36 hours of room temperature fermentation is equivalent to more than three days of cold fermentation.

In my experience, the smell of alcohol is most pronounced when a dough has had extensive fermentation and where large amounts of yeast have been used. The odor of alcohol (more like a whiff) is most noticeable when the container storing the dough is opened after having been sealed. The chemistry of fermentation is quite complicated but there may be certain byproducts of fermentation that also contribute to a beer-like odor.

Peter


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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2015, 09:34:01 PM »
Nate,

Further to my last post, here is an example of a dough that was fermented at room temperature for about 22 1/2 hours without any added sugar to the dough:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62332#msg62332

In my case, the room temperature was on the high side. That effectively extended the nominal fermentation window for a dough fermented at a lower temperature.

Peter

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2015, 09:27:12 PM »
Peter, I, too, got a lot out of these posts. As I mentioned in another thread earlier today, I'm a big fan of RT, and not so much CF..but do use the fridge to retard the RT-fermented doughs for several days and allow the flavors to deepen.

Not to take this thread away from where it goes, but you describe the wetness of long-fermented  RT doughs very well. One item I've never been clear on, is if HR is reduced, does that reduce potential  OS and lightness and airiness  of the crumb?

Thanks, and thanks for letting me butt in  :) :)

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2015, 02:23:27 PM »
Not to take this thread away from where it goes, but you describe the wetness of long-fermented  RT doughs very well. One item I've never been clear on, is if HR is reduced, does that reduce potential  OS and lightness and airiness  of the crumb?
Bill,

If I understand your question correctly, the effect of increasing the hydration and its effect on the finished crust was discussed recently in another thread, including these posts and in some of the items referenced therein:

Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=38295.msg383460#msg383460

Reply 43 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=38295.msg383602#msg383602

Reply 58 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=38295.msg383674#msg383674

The focus of the above posts, and elsewhere in the same thread, was on the effect of increasing hydration on the crispiness of the finished crust, but, at the same time, the effect of increasing hydration is to make for a lighter and more open crumb. However, in my experience, for the crust and crumb to benefit from the higher hydration, the oven has to have enough oomph to produce the better oven spring. If the oven is on the weak side and the hydration is too high, the oven is going to have a hard time rising the dough and creating an improved oven spring.

Peter

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2015, 09:15:48 PM »
Thanks so much,  Peter, I'd read most of those, though not all the links, when they were first posted, but seeing them again is very helpful.

 When I first started out, my pizzas were Lahey-style, and my hydration was uniformly 70%. I had some great OS and nice crumb. But as I've extended my CF or more often RT with multi-day cold retard, I've been rewarded with some wet doughs so have backed off  the hydration. These posts and links you noted  make me wonder if I'm making the right choices. I sometimes would like my pies to be a bit lighter , mpre airy ..Most often now I'm at 64 but sometimes at 62. What's the compromise between great flavor, lightness, OS    that let's me have the attributes of a high-hydration pie, but lets me actually get it off the peel and into the oven? I'd happily stay at 70%, but with 5 day pies or longer, I'm too likely to run into trouble. Or is it worth the risk and I should just keep improving my handling skills (which i thought were pretty good, but???)

Thanks!


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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2015, 09:58:49 AM »
Bill,

Sometimes it is hard to get all of the stars in perfect alignment. For example, if you want to use a hydration of 70% and five days of fermentation, you can expect potential handling problems (e.g., overextensibility) because of the way that the protease enzymes and acids of fermentation try to dismantle the gluten structure and maybe even cause water to be released from its bond, resulting in a wet, or clammy or sticky dough. If you use stretch and folds and maybe rest periods between sets of stretches and folds, you should be able to overcome the initial stickiness problem, and you should still get a soft crumb because of the high hydration, but the crumb might be tight with small alveoles of uniform size and shape instead of alveoles that are of irregular size and shape that I believe most members prefer. The reality is that high hydrations speed up everything--the good, the bad and the indifferent. In your case, one way that you might be able to have your cake and eat it too is to use parchment paper to load your pizza into the oven. And if your oven is up to the task, you might be able to get a good oven spring and crumb structure. Another option might be to lower the hydration (to alleviate the wetness problem) or reduce the amount of yeast (which will slow down the fermentation while keeping the fermentation window the same), or keep everything the same and shorten the window of fermentation to the point where the dough can be handled easily. 

It happens quite often that a member will specify all of the features and characteristics that he or she wants in the dough and final pizza, like combining features of vastly or significantly different styles of pizzas. But sometimes these features and characteristics are in conflict and hard to realize in all cases at the same time and place. Then there is the matter of whether the oven in question is the proper or best one to create the perfect pizza. There are almost always tradeoffs, either in the dough formulation, the oven and oven protocol, or maybe even both. The trick is to try to harmonize everything.

Peter

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Re: Long room temp rise without overfermenting
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2015, 11:41:16 AM »
Thanks so much Peter! Yes, I guess I want to eat my pizza and have it, too :)  My home oven seems to be okay with getting me the temps I need (or close to it) when I use steel. I find I can launch at a little above 600..Your explanation of the crumb structure is most helpful..I may be sometimes doing too many stretch/folds, or waiting too long between sets. I was thinking that was a good thing, but if not, I'm certainly up for not spending so much time in prep. This is after all, NJ, the land of Bada-Bing, Bada-Boom...and done! :-D

I've got a poolish working right now, and I think I'll try splitting the difference on hydration or shortening my fridge time. The reballing ala Fazzari does seem to provide some nice results, and I will definitely think about the parchment, though I'd rather go for the Big Boy peel launch if I can. (Again, NJ, right?)

Meanwhile I've got an SD that I tried refreshing with Anchor Steam beer this morning before making a test dough with BF, 70%, buit it won't see the fridge (or maybe only for a short hold period), so that'll be interesting.

Peter, you are an amazing source of knowledge! Thank you so much!