Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 65708 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1060 on: June 25, 2014, 07:48:18 PM »
I went for another attempt using my newly acquired Pendleton flour.....Costco really came through.
This batch was pure Power Flour.  ;D

Next time I will mix it with some of the slightly lower gluten Mondako flour.
This flour is dramatically better for pizza than the AP flour I was using. The crust was probably the best I've ever made, very much like a NY style pie. I made it in the tomato pie style with the tomatoes on top though.

The dough was a Bruno DiFabio clone, taken from his video and scaled down.
I wanted to try this since the dough in the video looked very nice, it is a one day cold ferment, and it has a bit of egg (maybe to up the crisp factor?), and he's a pizza champion. LOL

The skin took a bit of work to get stretched (probably my lack of experience),
but once I got it going it was very easy to work with, very extensible with no worries about tears.
It could easily have been tossed and spun, but I knuckle stretched it to 14".

I wish I knew from experience how crispy the DeLorenzo's crust is......mine was airy and crispy near the edge (no bones here), and more chewy towards the fold-able middle.
The entire bottom was a bit crispy but no more than a NY pie.

Would a DeLorenzo slice be fold-able, does the middle part of the crust have any chew?

woodmakesitgood,

Your tomato pie pizza using Power Flour looks very good!  ;D I am glad to hear that your crust probably was the best you have ever made.  Your Bruno DiFabio clone dough sounds interesting. 

In my opinion De Lorenzo's crust is very crispy and very thin.  If you did not see the photos from when Trenton Bill and I went to De Lorenzo's Robbinsville they start at Reply 323 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg275390#msg275390  De Lorenzo's slices really aren't foldable like a NY style pizza.  De Lorenzo's pizza is very hard to explain over the computer.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1061 on: June 25, 2014, 08:07:14 PM »
woodmakesitgood,

Your tomato pie pizza using Power Flour looks very good!  ;D I am glad to hear that your crust probably was the best you have ever made.  Your Bruno DiFabio clone dough sounds interesting. 

In my opinion De Lorenzo's crust is very crispy and very thin.  If you did not see the photos from when Trenton Bill and I went to De Lorenzo's Robbinsville they start at Reply 323 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg275390#msg275390  De Lorenzo's slices really aren't foldable like a NY style pizza.  De Lorenzo's pizza is very hard to explain over the computer.

Norma


Thanks Norma

The pics of the DeLorenzo pies are interesting.
I see how their crispy crust would crack when bent near the edge (pic 078.jpg) and also how the slice can droop toward the middle (pic 084.jpg), but not really be foldable.
Impressive that they keep the bottom of the crust crisp with so much moisture from the oil and tomatoes above.

The pictures show a good amount of charring on the bottom of their pies, that might be hard to replicate in a home oven, especially mine.

My pie used a 10 oz dough ball to make a 14" pie, so a TF of 0.065
I didn't think this dough could go much thinner, but I could push it a bit, maybe down to 0.062
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 08:12:27 PM by woodmakesitgood »

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1062 on: June 25, 2014, 08:17:13 PM »
Another thing that might help:
how much of say, an 8" De Lorenzo slice, gives a crunch when chewed:
is it 1 or 2" near the edge, or is it pretty much the whole 8" slice?

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1063 on: June 25, 2014, 08:33:33 PM »

Thanks Norma

The pics of the DeLorenzo pies are interesting.
I see how their crispy crust would crack when bent near the edge (pic 078.jpg) and also how the slice can droop toward the middle (pic 084.jpg), but not really be foldable.
Impressive that they keep the bottom of the crust crisp with so much moisture from the oil and tomatoes above.

The pictures show a good amount of charring on the bottom of their pies, that might be hard to replicate in a home oven, especially mine.

My pie used a 10 oz dough ball to make a 14" pie, so a TF of 0.065
I didn't think this dough could go much thinner, but I could push it a bit, maybe down to 0.062

woodmakesitgood,

Even though the middle of a couple of the slices did have a droop at De Lorenzo's they were still crisp, but not as crisp as the outer edges. 

Yes, De Lorenzo's did have charring on the bottom crust, but for some reason that pie did not taste burnt at all. 

Since you posted that you used a 10 ounce dough ball to make a 14” pie with a TF of 0.065 you were right on.  Maybe I didn't look at your tomato pie close enough.

I had problems with my deck oven at market not being able to produce a pie like De Lorenzo's.  Most of my attempts in the Blackstone were not right either in one way or another.

Norma
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Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1064 on: June 25, 2014, 08:42:43 PM »
woodmakesitgood,

Even though the middle of a couple of the slices did have a droop at De Lorenzo's they were still crisp, but not as crisp as the outer edges. 

Yes, De Lorenzo's did have charring on the bottom crust, but for some reason that pie did not taste burnt at all. 

Since you posted that you used a 10 ounce dough ball to make a 14” pie with a TF of 0.065 you were right on.  Maybe I didn't look at your tomato pie close enough.

I had problems with my deck oven at market not being able to produce a pie like De Lorenzo's.  Most of my attempts in the Blackstone were not right either in one way or another.

Norma

ahh, the oven. How long before I can fit a deck oven in the garage I wonder.....

ok, things to try:

preheat stone and steel longer
brush some oil on the top side before adding the cheese (it looks like they pour it on in one pic)
go a bit thinner on the TF, if possible
a little more hydration since Bruno's dough is fairly low at 52.5%


Flour (100%):
Water (52.5%):
IDY (.1%):
Salt (1.25%):
Oil (2.75%):
Sugar (1.25%):
Total (157.85%):
Single Ball:
1509.55 g  |  53.25 oz | 3.33 lbs
792.51 g  |  27.95 oz | 1.75 lbs
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
18.87 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.93 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
41.51 g | 1.46 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.23 tsp | 3.08 tbsp
18.87 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.73 tsp | 1.58 tbsp
2382.82 g | 84.05 oz | 5.25 lbs | TF = 0.065
283.67 g | 10.01 oz | 0.63 lbs


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1065 on: June 25, 2014, 08:43:18 PM »
Another thing that might help:
how much of say, an 8" De Lorenzo slice, gives a crunch when chewed:
is it 1 or 2" near the edge, or is it pretty much the whole 8" slice?

woodmakesitgood,

De Lorenzo's tomato pies are not cut into regular slices like NY style pizzas.  Most of De Lorenzo's tomato pie Trenton Bill and I ate did give a crunch when chewed.  It was not just the edges that were crispy and gave the crunch when eaten.  The pieces of De Lorenzo's tomato pies are cut more like a thin Chicago pie.  That is called a party cut.

Norma 
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1066 on: June 25, 2014, 08:49:22 PM »
ahh, the oven. How long before I can fit a deck oven in the garage I wonder.....

ok, things to try:

preheat stone and steel longer
brush some oil on the top side before adding the cheese (it looks like they pour it on in one pic)
go a bit thinner on the TF, if possible
a little more hydration since Bruno's dough is fairly low at 52.5%


Flour (100%):
Water (52.5%):
IDY (.1%):
Salt (1.25%):
Oil (2.75%):
Sugar (1.25%):
Total (157.85%):
Single Ball:
1509.55 g  |  53.25 oz | 3.33 lbs
792.51 g  |  27.95 oz | 1.75 lbs
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
18.87 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.93 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
41.51 g | 1.46 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.23 tsp | 3.08 tbsp
18.87 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.73 tsp | 1.58 tbsp
2382.82 g | 84.05 oz | 5.25 lbs | TF = 0.065
283.67 g | 10.01 oz | 0.63 lbs

woodmakesitgood,

Lol about a deck oven in your garage. :-D  If you ever decide to get one it might have to be a Blodgett 1000.

With your preheated stone and steel you might have success.

Best of luck!

Norma
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Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1067 on: June 25, 2014, 09:00:54 PM »
woodmakesitgood,

De Lorenzo's tomato pies are not cut into regular slices like NY style pizzas.  Most of De Lorenzo's tomato pie Trenton Bill and I ate did give a crunch when chewed.  It was not just the edges that were crispy and gave the crunch when eaten.  The pieces of De Lorenzo's tomato pies are cut more like a thin Chicago pie.  That is called a party cut.

Norma


I remember reading that the De Lorenzo pies are usually party cut.
For some reason, I never seem to remember it when I'm about to cut the pie.  :-[

The Robbinsville pics show regular triangle slices...did you special request that, or do some of their pies normally get the regular cut? With knives, right?

But it sounds like the whole bottom of the pie is crispy, no matter how they cut it.


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1068 on: June 25, 2014, 09:17:33 PM »

I remember reading that the De Lorenzo pies are usually party cut.
For some reason, I never seem to remember it when I'm about to cut the pie.  :-[

The Robbinsville pics show regular triangle slices...did you special request that, or do some of their pies normally get the regular cut? With knives, right?

But it sounds like the whole bottom of the pie is crispy, no matter how they cut it.

woodmakesitgood,

It is okay if you forget to do a party cut.   ;D

If you look closely at the photos of the De Lorenzo's pizza Trenton Bill and I shared you can see that there is a cut across the center of the pie and then four cuts.  I think the worker might have cut a little wrong and that is where the slice part is.  We did not request the pie to be cut any differently.  I can't recall right now what the name of the knife De Lorenzo's uses to cut their tomato pies, but it is something like a oyster knife.

Norma
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Offline nick57

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1069 on: June 25, 2014, 09:56:02 PM »
Norma, Boardwalk style. I checked out the links. So, I think I have an idea where to head. Thanks of the info Norma and Beaunehead. You confirmed my suspicions. I am going to use some sharp white cheddar and whole milk mozz just for fun.


Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1070 on: July 09, 2014, 11:50:35 PM »
Another pie attempt tonight.
Working with the DiFabio clone dough, still PFM Power flour.

10 oz. ball not quite to 14" this time. I think if I go too thin, the crust can't handle the topping moisture. This one was a multi day ferment, frozen, then thawed about a week later.

This time, I again brushed the skin first with EVOO.
I think this is the key for my limited oven, to get the crispiness.

Topped with WMM, Cheddar, braised garlic and brussel sprouts, portobello,
then Italbrand tomatoes, black pepper.
Less cheese and tomato on this one.

Stone for 7 min, and broiler/steel for 1 min.

The pie tasted great, my first with brussel sprouts, nice garlic
but more importantly it was crispy across the entire bottom!

The broiler time is tricky, too long and its going to get scorched.




Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1071 on: July 10, 2014, 12:58:31 AM »
Looks really delicious, wood
 

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1072 on: July 10, 2014, 01:17:25 AM »
Looks really delicious, wood

Thank you sir!
I just need to keep improving my tomato pie method (and remember to check what Norma's up to).  ;D

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1073 on: July 10, 2014, 06:41:25 AM »
Looks really delicious, wood

woodmakesitgood,

I agree with TinRoof!   ^^^

It sure was good thinking on your part to try to brush the skin with EVOO first.  Glad to hear that gave you the crispiness you wanted to achieve.  Your choice of topings really sound and look good.  :chef:

I hear you on the broiler part.  I have not used my broiler in my home oven for a long while but had some problems timing how long the broiler would be on for a decent bake.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1074 on: October 17, 2014, 06:18:37 PM »
I wonder how Tony Gemignani's New Jersey Tomato Pie would taste.  The TIGA starter sounds interesting.  I wonder if anyone ever tried a TIGA starter before here on the forum in a pizza dough.

http://dadt.com/live/recipe-finder.html?_cat=chef&_val=Tony+Gemignani

I don't know if the link will work.  If anyone is interested, and the link doesn't work, all you have to do is put New Jersey Tomato Pie in the recipe finder, hit the submit button and Tony's recipe should come up.

Norma

Edit:  The link only takes you to the search feature.  It says you can print the recipe so I will post it here.

Tony Gemignani's New Jersey Tomato Pie
Print Recipe



Makes one 13-inch pizza; 6 slices


At the turn of the twentieth century, pizza quickly migrated from New York to New Jersey, where, in the capital city of Trenton, a distinctive local tomato pie was born at places like Papa's and De Lorenzo's. Like New York pizza, the cheese goes down first—I prefer the evenness of sliced mozzarella—so it stays creamier and doesn't brown, and the sauce becomes more intense as it's exposed to the heat of the oven. You can add meat or other toppings (which would go between the cheese and the sauce), but I like this simple version best. And I top mine with additional hand-crushed tomatoes to make it even more of a tomato fest.
INGREDIENTS
1 (13-ounce/370-gram) ball Master Dough, preferably with starter (see accompanying recipe), made with Tiga
3 parts flour mixed with 1 part semolina, for dusting
6.5 ounces (185 grams) whole-milk mozzarella cheese, thinly sliced (9 slices)
1 cup (245 grams) New York–New Jersey Tomato Sauce (see accompanying recipe), at room temperature
4 ounces (115 grams/1/2 cup) hand crushed tomatoes (see accompanying recipe), at room temperature (optional)
Grated Pecorino Romano cheese, for dusting
Dried oregano, for dusting
Garlic Oil (see accompanying recipe), for drizzling
INSTRUCTIONS
Remove the dough ball from the refrigerator and leave wrapped at room temperature until the dough warms to 60°F to 65°F. Meanwhile, set up the oven with two pizza stones or baking steels and preheat to 500°F for 1 hour.
Dust the work surface with the dusting mixture, then move the dough to the surface and dust the top. Sprinkle a wooden peel with the dusting mixture.
Open the dough on the work surface to a 13-inch round with a slightly raised edge. Move the dough to the peel. As you work, shake the peel forward and backward to ensure the dough isn't sticking.
Arrange the mozzarella slices over the top, leaving a 3/4-inch border.
Spoon the tomato sauce onto the center of the pizza. Then, using the back of the spoon in a circular motion and working outward from the center, spread the sauce to the rim.
Slide the pizza onto the top stone. Bake for 6 minutes. Lift the pizza onto the peel, rotate it 180 degrees, and then transfer it to the bottom stone. Bake for another 6 minutes, until the bottom is browned and crisp and the top is golden brown.
Transfer the pizza to a cutting board and cut into 6 wedges. Top with the crushed tomatoes, then finish with a dusting of pecorino and oregano and a drizzle of garlic oil.
Master Dough with Starter
Makes about 29 ounces (820 grams) dough, enough for 2 pizzas
This is what I'd call the quintessential American pizza dough, inspired by New York–style pizza: medium thin, satisfyingly chewy, and the ideal companion to mozzarella, tomato sauce, and the pizza toppings Americans love best, from pepperoni and sausage to olives, mushrooms, and other vegetables. It's the dough I teach first to new students, and the one I recommend experimenting with because it's so versatile and user-friendly.
INGREDIENTS
2.2 grams (3/4 teaspoon) active dry yeast
70 grams (1/4 cup plus 1 tablespoon) warm water (80°F to 85°F)
453 grams flour (3-1/2 cups) with 13 to 14 percent protein, preferably All Trumps, Pendleton Flour Mills Power, Giusto's High Performer, King Arthur Sir Lancelot Unbleached Hi-Gluten, or Tony's California Artisan Flour
10 grams (1 tablespoon plus 1/4 teaspoon) diastatic malt
210 grams (3/4 cup plus 2 tablespoons) ice water, plus more as needed
90 grams Tiga (see accompanying recipe)
10 grams (2 teaspoons) fine sea salt
5 grams (1 teaspoon) extra virgin olive oil
INSTRUCTIONS
Put the yeast in a small bowl, add the warm water, and whisk vigorously for 30 seconds. The yeast should dissolve in the water and the mixture should foam. If it doesn't and the yeast granules float, the yeast is "dead" and should be discarded. Begin again with a fresh amount of yeast and water.
Combine the flour and malt in the bowl of a stand mixer fitted with the dough hook.
With the mixer running on the lowest speed, pour in most of the icewater, reserving about 2 tablespoons, followed by the yeast-water mixture. Pour the reserved water into the yeast bowl, swirl it around to dislodge any bits of yeast stuck to the bowl, and add to the mixer. Mix for about 15 seconds, stop the mixer, and add the tiga.
Continue to mix the dough at the lowest speed for about 1 minute, until most of the dough comes together around the hook. Stop the mixer. Use your fingers to pull away any dough clinging to the hook, and scrape the sides and bottom of the bowl with a bowl scraper or rubber spatula. Check the bottom of the bowl for any unincorporated flour. Turn the dough over and press it into the bottom of the bowl to pick up any stray pieces. If the dough isn't holding together, add small amounts of water (about 1/2 teaspoon to start) and mix until the dough is no longer dry and holds together.
Add the salt and mix on the lowest speed for 1 minute to combine.

Stop the mixer, pull the dough off the hook, and add the oil. Mix the dough for 1 to 2 minutes, stopping the mixer from time to time to pull the dough off the hook and scrape down the sides of the bowl, until all of the oil is absorbed. The dough won't look completely smooth.

Use a bowl scraper to transfer the dough to an unfloured work surface, then knead it for 2 to 3 minutes, until smooth. Cover the dough with a damp dish towel and let rest at room temperature for 20 minutes. Use the dough cutter to loosen the dough and to cut it in half. Weigh the dough, adjusting the quantity as necessary to give you two 13-ounce pieces. Form each piece into a ball. Any remaining dough can be discarded.
Form the dough into balls. Set the balls on a half sheet pan, spacing them about 3 inches apart. Or, if you will be baking the balls on different days, place each ball on a quarter sheet pan. Wrap the pan(s) airtight with a double layer of plastic wrap, sealing the wrap well under the pan(s). Put the pan(s) in a level spot in the refrigerator and refrigerate for 24 to 48 hours.


TIGA

Makes 90 grams

INGREDIENTS
0.14 gram (one-third of 1/8 teaspoon) active dry yeast or 0.42 grams fresh yeast, broken into small pieces
39 grams (2 tablespoons plus 2 teaspoons) cold tap water
55 grams (1/4 cup plus 3 tablespoons) flour used in dough recipe

INSTRUCTIONS
Put the yeast in a small bowl, add the water, and whisk vigorously for 30 seconds. The mixture should bubble on top. If it doesn't and the yeast granules float, the yeast is "dead" and should be discarded. Begin again with a fresh amount of yeast and water.

Add the flour and stir well with a rubber spatula to combine. The consistency will be quite thick.

Scrape down the sides of the bowl, cover the bowl with plastic wrap, and let sit at room temperature for 18 hours. Refrigerate for 30 minutes to cool slightly before using.

If you are not using the starter right away, you can store it in the refrigerator, though I suggest keeping it for no more than 8 hours. Bring it to cool room temperature before using.


New York–New Jersey Tomato Sauce
Makes 1 cup (245 grams), enough for 1 New Jersey Tomato Pie
INGREDIENTS
4.5 ounces (120 grams/1/2 cup) ground tomatoes, preferably 7/11 or DiNapoli
2.2 ounces (65 grams/1/4 cup) tomato paste, preferably SuperDolce
Pinch of dried oregano
Pinch of fine sea salt
1 teaspoon (5 grams) extra virgin
olive oil
2 ounces (55 grams/1/4 cup) hand-crushed tomatoes
INSTRUCTIONS
Combine the ground tomatoes, tomato paste, oregano, salt, and oil in a deep bowl or other deep container and puree with an immersion blender. Stir in the crushed tomatoes.
The sauce can be covered and refrigerated for up to 3 days before using.

GARLIC OIL
Makes 1/4 cup (60 grams)
Garlic oil is one of my favorite "secret ingredients" for finishing pizzas. It's quick and easy to make, but it's best made at least an hour in advance. The longer you leave it, the more the garlic flavor infuses into the oil, so I recommend making it a day ahead, at the same time you make your sauce.
INGREDIENTS
1-1/2 teaspoons (5 grams) minced garlic
1/4 cup (55 grams) extra virgin olive oil
INSTRUCTIONS
Combine the garlic and oil in a small bowl. Cover and store in the refrigerator for a day or two.

How to Make Hand-Crushed Tomatoes
Start with the best canned plum or pear tomatoes you can find. I recommend Valoroso or DiNapoli brands. Whether you start with canned or cooked fresh tomatoes, you'll want to rinse your hands frequently as you work, so set up your station near the sink or have a bowl of cold water nearby. Put a strainer over a bowl. Working over a second bowl, lift a tomato, pinch off the head (stem end) and any unripe areas, and let those pieces drop into the bowl. Some tomatoes may not be deep red. I prefer not to use those,but it's your call. Open up the tomato, remove any skins, seeds, or tough sections and add them to your discard bowl. Break the cleaned tomato into small pieces or strips and put them in the strainer. Keep in mind that these will not be blended, so if they look too coarse for your taste, run them through your fingers to make smaller pieces. Continue cleaning and crushing tomatoes until you have the amount called for in your recipe. Press gently on the tomatoes to strain as much liquid as possible. Discard the contents of the discard bowl and the bowl below the strainer. One 28-ounce can of tomatoes should yield 1 generous cup (250 grams) crushed tomatoes.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 06:23:38 PM by norma427 »
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Offline chrisdias

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1075 on: October 22, 2014, 09:39:51 PM »
I use this "master dough" recipe and i think it is awesome, the best I've tried. I found it on foodrepublic.com a few weeks back when they did an interview with him about his upcoming book.

I was pretty surprised just how good it was the first time I made it.  I was using much more water before and I was letting the dough rise on the counter for hours before putting it into the fridge.  Now I let it sit for 20min, make it into balls, and put it straight into the fridge.  I also learned that it is best to take it out of the fridge about 30min prior to using... not too cold nor has it started to rise again. 

Interestingly, the best pizza I made recently was this dough, but the dough had been frozen for 2w.  I was heading out of town and knew I needed dough upon return.  I made it the week before I left, let it sit in the fridge for 2 days, froze it for 2 weeks, took it out of the freezer on Saturday morning and let is sit for another 2 days in the fridge.  By far the best!

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1076 on: October 22, 2014, 09:46:15 PM »
I use this "master dough" recipe and i think it is awesome, the best I've tried. I found it on foodrepublic.com a few weeks back when they did an interview with him about his upcoming book.

I was pretty surprised just how good it was the first time I made it.  I was using much more water before and I was letting the dough rise on the counter for hours before putting it into the fridge.  Now I let it sit for 20min, make it into balls, and put it straight into the fridge.  I also learned that it is best to take it out of the fridge about 30min prior to using... not too cold nor has it started to rise again. 

Interestingly, the best pizza I made recently was this dough, but the dough had been frozen for 2w.  I was heading out of town and knew I needed dough upon return.  I made it the week before I left, let it sit in the fridge for 2 days, froze it for 2 weeks, took it out of the freezer on Saturday morning and let is sit for another 2 days in the fridge.  By far the best!

Chris,

Was the recipe I posted Tony's master dough recipe?  Glad to hear you think Tony's “master dough recipe” is the best you have tried. 

Norma
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