Author Topic: Different pizza today from the same dough  (Read 3867 times)

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Offline norma427

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Different pizza today from the same dough
« on: December 31, 2013, 05:39:57 PM »
I sure don't really understand why but I made a different pizza from the same dough today.  The only differences were is that I used my cutter pan, used a different size dough ball and dressed the pizza differently.  I used what was left over of when I made the Detroit style dough yesterday.  The leftover dough weighed 6.14 oz. and was not enough to make another Detroit style dough ball.  I then thought I would try the 6.14 oz. dough ball in my cutter pan today.  I used my regular oil I used to make the boardwalk style of pizzas (in the ingredients and to oil them) and lightly oiled the cutter pan today.  The dough ball easily spread in the cutter pan.  The dough was then left to temper in the heated cabinet. 

I did not expect too much of any difference in the final pizza, but much to my surprise the pizza was very different.  The crumb was very moist but the bottom crust was very crunchy.  My taste testers and a few customers that tasted this pizza really liked it.  A few customers said they would purchased this style of pizza if I decide to make it all the time.  One customer said this was the best style of pizza I ever have made.

The pizza was dressed with my regular sauce, regular cheese and Greek oregano sprinkled on before the bake.  After the bake Romano cheese was sprinkled on top. 

The only problem is I am not sure what TF I used if I decide to purchase bigger cutter pans to try to see if this kind of pizza would sell.  I also don't understand why the bottom crust was so crunchy.

My great granddaughter was a “barker” today and a pizza chef.  She said she had always wanted to be a pizza chef.   8)

 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2013, 05:42:58 PM »
Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2013, 06:48:11 PM »
Norma,

What was the size of the cutter pan?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2013, 07:43:01 PM »
Norma,

What was the size of the cutter pan?

Peter

Peter,

The cutter pan I used today is the one I posted about at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16803.0.html 

I received the wrong one at first but then got another one at Reply 12 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16803.msg164367.html#msg164367

It is a 10" cutter pan.

Norma
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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2013, 07:54:13 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the information.

For the 10" cutter pan size, the thickness factor is 6.14/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.07818.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2013, 08:32:14 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the information.

For the 10" cutter pan size, the thickness factor is 6.14/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.07818.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for figuring out what TF I used for the 10” cutter pan.  I will try the same size dough ball in the 10” cutter pan next week and see if the pizza turns out the same.  If the pizza does turn out the same I will purchase some bigger cutter pans and see if customers are interested in that type of pizza. 

Do you happen to know, offhand, why the bottom crust was crunchy?  I think everyone that got to try a slice of that pizza today liked the crunchy bottom with the soft crumb above it.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2014, 02:17:45 AM »
Gosh Norma
Is that bottom as crispy as it looks......I'd love to try that!!!

John

Offline norma427

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2014, 09:08:04 AM »
Gosh Norma
Is that bottom as crispy as it looks......I'd love to try that!!!

John

John,

The bottom crust made in the cutter pan was crisp.  I know I used a different pan and oil when I stumbled upon making a Detroit style pizza, but when I made the pizza at Reply 3 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg217571.html#msg217571  it can be seen that the bottom crust was not crispy.  I wonder if it was a combination of the cutter pan and the TF that made the bottom crust crispy.  I honestly am not good at analazing why something happens.  I just do experiments like you do. 

Norma
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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2014, 10:20:17 AM »
Do you happen to know, offhand, why the bottom crust was crunchy?  I think everyone that got to try a slice of that pizza today liked the crunchy bottom with the soft crumb above it.
Norma,

I think it could have been several things. For example, you are using a highly hydrated dough to begin with, you subjected the dough to a fair amount of fermentation, and you said that you let the skin in the cutter pan proof in your heating cabinet. That combination could have created a highly open/porous dough that acted like an insulator. So, rather than the bottom heat passing through the dough to cook the sauce and cheese and toppings, a good part of it stays at the bottom of the skin (because of the insulative effects of the dough) and cooks the bottom more, leading to increased crispiness and maybe even a softer crumb above the bottom crust. Tom Lehmann has discussed the above phenomena in a PMQ Think Tank post as follows:

This is also why a higher dough absorption (within reason) produces a crispier crust; the dough is softer, and it has the capacity to expand more during baking, thus reducing the heat transfer properties from the bottom of the pizza into the center of the pizza. This allows the bottom to reach a higher temperature, faster during baking which, creates a crispier bottom. Physics 101. (http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=45476&sid=8249dd99e7a6b26d277901325a51d864#p45476).

The oil in the pan could have also been a factor because it has high thermal capacity and, if used in sufficient quantity, has a "frying" effect on the crust, contributing to its crispiness. Maybe the conductive characteristics of the Lloyd/pizzatools PSTK pan helped this process along also, although I do not recall offhand whether you experienced similar results when using that pan previously in the same manner.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2014, 12:48:22 PM »
Norma,

I think it could have been several things. For example, you are using a highly hydrated dough to begin with, you subjected the dough to a fair amount of fermentation, and you said that you let the skin in the cutter pan proof in your heating cabinet. That combination could have created a highly open/porous dough that acted like an insulator. So, rather than the bottom heat passing through the dough to cook the sauce and cheese and toppings, a good part of it stays at the bottom of the skin (because of the insulative effects of the dough) and cooks the bottom more, leading to increased crispiness and maybe even a softer crumb above the bottom crust. Tom Lehmann has discussed the above phenomena in a PMQ Think Tank post as follows:

This is also why a higher dough absorption (within reason) produces a crispier crust; the dough is softer, and it has the capacity to expand more during baking, thus reducing the heat transfer properties from the bottom of the pizza into the center of the pizza. This allows the bottom to reach a higher temperature, faster during baking which, creates a crispier bottom. Physics 101. (http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=45476&sid=8249dd99e7a6b26d277901325a51d864#p45476).

The oil in the pan could have also been a factor because it has high thermal capacity and, if used in sufficient quantity, has a "frying" effect on the crust, contributing to its crispiness. Maybe the conductive characteristics of the Lloyd/pizzatools PSTK pan helped this process along also, although I do not recall offhand whether you experienced similar results when using that pan previously in the same manner.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for explaining the reasons why you think I was able to achieve a soft crumb in combination with a crisp bottom crust.  Thanks also for Tom Lehmann's link to where he explains Physics 101 in how when using a higher dough absorption (within reason) produces a crisper crust, the dough is softer, and it has the capacity to expand more during baking, thus reducing the heat transfer properties from the bottom of the pizza to the center of the pizza.  I never would have thought that allows the bottom to reach a higher temperature, faster during baking which, creates a crisper bottom crust.  I still have a lot to learn about different style of pizzas and how they bake.   

I have baked a fair amount of pizzas in pans but don't think I had the same results before.  I think the conductive characteristics of the Lloyd/pizzatools PSTK pan might have helped the process along in combination with the oil.

I will see if I can produce the same results again.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2014, 12:52:33 PM »
That is a darn good pan you are using there and I'm really glad this worked out for you the way it has. I swear by those pans for my thin crust pizza making.  :chef:

Your great grand daughter is absolutely adorable Norma!  :)
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Offline norma427

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2014, 01:21:29 PM »
That is a darn good pan you are using there and I'm really glad this worked out for you the way it has. I swear by those pans for my thin crust pizza making.  :chef:

Your great grand daughter is absolutely adorable Norma!  :)

Bob,

I also think that the cutter pan is good.  It is good to hear you swear by those pans for your thin crust pizza making.  :P I have to try some more really thin crust pizzas at some point in time.

Thanks about my great granddaughter.  She is a character.   

Norma
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Offline Musky

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2014, 02:28:28 PM »
Norma I don't want to ask you to share your trade secrets, but could you share the hydration percentage for that dough?  I've been experimenting with a Sicilian dough with some success, but with a much higher TF.  I'd like to give it a try in my 16" cutter pan with the TF Pete mentioned, instead of in my rectangular pan or deep dish pans.  That crust looks really appealing to me.

Kevin

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2014, 03:50:35 PM »
Norma I don't want to ask you to share your trade secrets, but could you share the hydration percentage for that dough?  I've been experimenting with a Sicilian dough with some success, but with a much higher TF.  I'd like to give it a try in my 16" cutter pan with the TF Pete mentioned, instead of in my rectangular pan or deep dish pans.  That crust looks really appealing to me.

Kevin

Kevin,

I do not have any trade secrets.  This forum and its members have helped me immensely in learning many different things about making pizzas. 

I am not exactly sure where on my Detroit style thread that Peter or I posted the formulation that I am using now, but at Reply 1587 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg239888.html#msg239888 about the same formulation is given, except I use 0.70% IDY for a one day cold ferment.  I use the Occident flour.

If you are interested in how I handle the wetter or higher hydration dough the methods I use are at Reply 2005 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg264715.html#msg264715

If you need anymore help just let me know. 

I look forward to your results if you use your 16” cutter pan. 

Norma
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Offline Musky

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2014, 04:12:17 PM »
Thanks, Norma.  Now I'll know where to find that.  I've been doing an 80% hydration with 2.5% oil, .5% sugar.  Salt is the same as yours.  I've been using a 12-15 hour poolish, then an overnight fermentation in my 64* house.  I stretch and fold every ten minutes for and hour or so after bringing the dough together. They've browned well, but are just a little doughy in the middle.  I've considered par baking, but haven't tried it.

My daughter is having some friends for a sleepover on Friday so I have some guinea pigs.  I'm going to try my formula one more time.  I'll make one for the 16" cutter, and two 10" x 15" rectangular for two shallow dark cookie sheets I have.  I love the look of the crumb and golden brown bottom in your pictures.  My wife and daughter love the Sicilian style.  I like the crunch of the bottom, the flavor, and the texture, but I like to eat a lot of pizza as I'm a big fella, and all that dough slows me down.  lol.

I think this thinner version could be a happy medium for us.  When my formula doesn't work, I'll give yours a go for the next try.   :D I like its simplicity, and your results are beautiful.  Do you use brick cheese?  Or is that the cheddar/mozzarella mix I've seen you post about?  We have some good brick here in WI where I live.

Kevin

Offline norma427

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2014, 09:10:33 PM »
Thanks, Norma.  Now I'll know where to find that.  I've been doing an 80% hydration with 2.5% oil, .5% sugar.  Salt is the same as yours.  I've been using a 12-15 hour poolish, then an overnight fermentation in my 64* house.  I stretch and fold every ten minutes for and hour or so after bringing the dough together. They've browned well, but are just a little doughy in the middle.  I've considered par baking, but haven't tried it.

My daughter is having some friends for a sleepover on Friday so I have some guinea pigs.  I'm going to try my formula one more time.  I'll make one for the 16" cutter, and two 10" x 15" rectangular for two shallow dark cookie sheets I have.  I love the look of the crumb and golden brown bottom in your pictures.  My wife and daughter love the Sicilian style.  I like the crunch of the bottom, the flavor, and the texture, but I like to eat a lot of pizza as I'm a big fella, and all that dough slows me down.  lol.

I think this thinner version could be a happy medium for us.  When my formula doesn't work, I'll give yours a go for the next try.   :D I like its simplicity, and your results are beautiful.  Do you use brick cheese?  Or is that the cheddar/mozzarella mix I've seen you post about?  We have some good brick here in WI where I live.

Kevin

Kevin,

Since you are doing a higher hydration for your Sicilian pizzas than I am for my Detroit style pizzas I can see you know how to handle a wetter dough.  ;D I did some higher hydration doughs on the Pizzarium thread, and on another thread of mine, but most of them did not turn out like I wanted. 

I will be anxious to see how your formulation works out in a cutter pan using Peter's TF. 

I use mild white cheddar from Wisconsin on my regular Detroit style pizzas and also used it for the pizza I posted here on this thread.  If you want to see some photos of the mild white cheddar I use they are at Reply 1672 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg241437.html#msg241437  I did try some brick cheeses on the Detroit style pizzas, but can't find them locally.

Good to hear you have some good brick cheeses in Wisconsin.  I wish I was that lucky to have access to brick cheese readily.  What brands of brick cheese do you have access to?

Norma
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Offline Musky

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2014, 09:49:56 PM »
There's prepackaged brick in all the grocery stores.  Growing up we always had Widmer Brick in the house.  That's a fine cheese and can be bought in the deli section of most stores.  It's a small cheese maker that's been around forever.  My Dad used to eat thick slices of it sprinkled with black pepper. 

You know it's been around a long time because I'm talking about my Dad eating it when I was growing up and I'm 52.  lol.

Kevin

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2014, 09:55:37 PM »
There's prepackaged brick in all the grocery stores.  Growing up we always had Widmer Brick in the house.  That's a fine cheese and can be bought in the deli section of most stores.  It's a small cheese maker that's been around forever.  My Dad used to eat thick slices of it sprinkled with black pepper. 

You know it's been around a long time because I'm talking about my Dad eating it when I was growing up and I'm 52.  lol.

Kevin

Kevin,

You are lucky you can purchased brick in all of the grocery stores.  I tried Widmer brick cheese on the Detroit style pizzas.  Jeff sent me some brick to try out.  Lol about your Dad eating brick cheese and you recall it when you were growing up.

Norma
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Offline Musky

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2014, 10:13:55 PM »
Brick and Muenster.  My old man was a cheese eater and a beer drinker.  Great guy.

Kevin

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Re: Different pizza today from the same dough
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2014, 06:05:09 PM »
I decided to do an experiment with the same dough I use at market at home.  I wanted to see if maybe this could be an emergency style dough.  I used 0.80% IDY in the formulation using the Expanded Dough Calculation Tool and since it is a higher hydration dough think it might be ready tonight to be baked.

I used the flat beater only on my Kitchen Aid mixer and mixed at high speeds until the ingredients looked incorporated and then mixed a little more.  The dough was then left to rest for 10 minutes.  I also used high speeds again after the rest period until the dough pulled away from the sides of the mixer bowl, then mixed more until I thought it felt like the dough at market. 

Since I was making 3 dough balls, one for tonight and two for tomorrow, they were all balled.  Each dough ball weighs 6.14 oz.  The final dough temperature was 73.5 degrees F.  I started mixing the dough at 4:15 PM and the one dough ball was placed in the cutter pan at 4:45 PM.  The dough was then left to rest so it could be pressed open.  There was plastic wrap put over the dough ball and in the short time the dough ball rested the dough became sticky again and stuck to the plastic wrap.  The dough ball was pressed open in the cutter pan at 5:30 PM.  The dough is now in the oven with the light on with a pizza tray on top to keep it from drying out.  The photo of the cutter pan is how much the pan was oiled.

Norma 
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