Author Topic: Change flour?  (Read 2136 times)

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Offline MJFinegan

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Change flour?
« on: March 23, 2006, 08:50:42 PM »
Long time lurker. First time poster....

I've been using this recipe for about a year.  It makes a satisfactory crust but it could be better.   

        2 1/2 Cups King Arthur Bread Flour
            1     Tbs sugar
            1     tsp shortening
            1/2  tsp salt
            1/4  tsp Fleischmans IDY

A 15 - 20 minute spin through the Kitchen-aid, place in oiled bowl, cover w/ plastic wrap and into the fridge for a day or three.   Baking is done on unglazed quarry tiles in a 550 degree electric oven for 6ish minutes.   I've been using a screen and have liked the lack of a burnt bottom.  Flavor is good but crust doesn't brown much and when it finally does brown, cheese is verrrry brown.  Tried adding dried milk to the mix but didn't notice any significant improvement. 

My ingredient choices were largely supermarket driven.  I don't have the space or finances to experiment with 50 pound bags of flour + S&H.  That having been said, I've just discovered that I can get Cavuto 00 in small quantities from a local merchant.  (Penn Mac is about a 15 minute drive from here.) 

Would I notice any improvement by making a switch?

Suggestions welcome.

Mike     


Offline MJFinegan

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Re: Change flour?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2006, 08:56:50 PM »
Oops.....should read Caputo 00.


Offline chiguy

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Re: Change flour?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2006, 11:37:38 PM »
 Hey Mjfinnegan,
 I did not know you could make pizza without water ??? How much??

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Change flour?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2006, 02:07:12 AM »
Mike,

Switching to Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour will not cure the browning problem. In fact, the Caputo flour will produce an even lighter crust. Since you are using a pizza screen, I would bake the pizza at a lower oven temperature, say, around 450-475 degrees F, and bake for a longer time. That should produce a better balance between the baking of the top and bottom of the pizza and give you better crust browning as the water is gradually driven out of the dough by the longer bake. If the cheese still browns too quickly in relation to the crust, then you may want to try a different cheese with better melting/browning characteristics. If that doesn't work, then I would consider adding some dried dairy whey to the basic recipe you are using. However, I don't think you will reach that point. Even though you haven't indicated the amount of water you are using, your recipe is pretty straightforward and should be fixable by following the recommendations made above.

I would also suggest a shorter knead time. For the quantities of ingredients you are using, and especially the flour, I don't think you need more than 6-7 minutes of kneading at about speed 2 or 3 once all of the ingredients come together into a rough ball in the mixer.

Once you specify how much water you are using, I may have some other thoughts.

Peter

Offline MJFinegan

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Re: Change flour?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2006, 05:51:58 AM »
I've been getting pretty good results with 1 cup of water.  Sorry for the omission..... :'(

Mike

Offline Randy

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Re: Change flour?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2006, 07:57:58 AM »
Increase the Crisco to 2 tsp and yeast to 1/2 tsp.  Use the middle rack with your screen.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Change flour?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2006, 08:24:37 AM »
Mike,

If you are using one cup of water for 2 1/2 cups of King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF), then you must be using a fairly heavy hand with the flour, possibly something around 5 ounces per cup. Otherwise, the hydration (the ratio of the weight of flour divided by the weight of water) would be over 70% and the dough would be very difficult to handle (it would be too wet). The Caputo 00 flour, even if it worked in your recipe, wouldn't be able to take anywhere near that amount of water. Its absorption rate is in about the mid-50% range.

Without knowing what type of pizza you are after in terms of style or the characteristics of the finished crust you are looking for, it is hard to comment on the remaining ingredients other than to say that they fall in the normal ranges--except that the salt looks to be on the low side. I estimate that your recipe produces a dough ball weight of around 21 ounces, which would be enough to make a 16-inch thin NY style or a smaller size pizza with a thicker crust.

After my last post, it also occurred to me that you can pre-bake the crust without toppings for a few minutes and then add the sauce, cheese and other toppings before finishing the baking. That way the crust can expand in the oven and start to brown before the cheese itself starts to cook. Hopefully everything finishes baking at the same time and you get a nicely browned crust and cheese that is properly cooked.

Peter

Offline MJFinegan

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Re: Change flour?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2006, 04:15:43 PM »
I probably should have elaborated a bit on the water.  I draw 1 cup of water and add it gradually to the dry ingredients as the mixer blends them.  I generally don't add the entire amount unless I was a bit heavy with the flour.  I probably ought to invest in a scale to ensure consistant measurements.   Though I must say, I never made a pizza I couldn't gag down.   ;)

The dough is usually slightly sticky and yielding when removed from the mixing bowl.  After 2 to 3 days in the fridge, it tends to be moderately soft and easy to over stretch.  (symptom of over hydration?) 

Shooting for a New York style crust,  browned crust slightly crisp but bready inside,  occasional bubbles welcomed.

Thanks

Mike

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Change flour?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2006, 06:56:53 PM »
Mike,

If your dough is very extensible (stretchy) after 2 or 3 days, that may be an indication that the dough is overhydrated, but it can also mean that it overfermented a bit. Yet, since you use added sugar in your recipe, you should have enough sugar in the dough at the time of baking to get decent coloration in the crust.

If you like a bready crumb, one of the best ways to achieve this is to not overknead and to use an autolyse or similar rest period. The easiest way to use the autolyse is to mix the bulk of the flour with the water, let the mixture rest for about 15-30 minutes, add the rest of the flour, the sugar, the yeast (IDY), and finally the shortening. If you'd like, you can let the dough rest for about another 10 minutes before refrigerating. I am not personally a big user of autolyse for the NY style but it is very popular with many of our members.

There are many NY style dough formulations on the forum. After you have perfected yours, you should feel free to experiment with some of the others. It's hard to break from personal favorites, but who knows? Maybe you will find another version that you like better.

Please keep us posted on the progress of your recipe.

Peter

Offline MJFinegan

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Re: Change flour?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2006, 08:10:17 PM »
Thanks for the tips and words of encouragement.  I will give your suggestions a try.  If things improve, I'll have great pizza.  If they don't,  I'll  have pizza.  Great!  Either way I win  ;D

Thanks again

Mike


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Change flour?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2006, 08:23:51 PM »
Mike,

Since you are so close to PennMac, you may want to think about the All Trumps high-gluten flour. It is a very good flour, quite possibly the top high-gluten flour used by pizza operators who specialize in the NY style. Avoiding shipping charges will also spare you a lot of cash. If you get to PennMac, ask for Rose. She is a member of the forum and very nice to deal with. To see some of the pizza items available at PennMac, go to http://www.pennmac.com and click on the Pizza Makers tab. You will note that the All Trumps is sold in small and large bags. PennMac also carries a lot of stuff not shown at their website, so if there is anything in particular you are looking for you should just ask. They have just about everything you would ever need to make a super NY style pizza.

Peter

Offline MJFinegan

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Re: Change flour?
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2006, 09:38:10 PM »
I'll check it out.  Penn Mac is in a neighborhood called "The Strip District" .  It is full of great ethnic markets and eateries.  Lots of fresh produce and the aromas......I'm gaining weight just thinking about it.  The Strip is also the home of Primanti Bros, a local bar/rest whose sandwiches are a considered a Pittsburgh delicacy.      http://www.primantibros.com/

Sounds strange.
Looks intimidating
Tastes great!

Mike