Author Topic: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls  (Read 4518 times)

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Offline Killmeyer000

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Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« on: January 07, 2014, 01:02:41 AM »
Hi,

I have been making pepperoni rolls out of Pillsbury Classic Pizza dough.  I usually take one pizza dough and cut it in 4ths to make 4 pepperoni rolls.  I wonder if there is someone that can help me figure out how to attempt to copy a full package of Pillsbury pizza dough using the information from their package.  If I can get a start, it will give me the opportunity to tweak it to our liking.  It may be difficult to figure out hydration...or we may have to guess at 58% or so?

A full package has 390 total grams.
Total fat in a full package is 12grams.
Sodium in a full package is 2820 mgs. Salt is 39.3% sodium...So, If my math is right, I would guess at 7180 mgs of salt(7.2 gms).
Sugars in a full package are 24 grams.
Protein in a full package is 30 grams.  What kind of flour might that be?  All Purpose?


Ingredients are:
Enriched Flour Bleached (wheat flour, niacin, ferrous sulfate, thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), Water, Dextrose, Sugar, Partially Hydrogenated Soybean And/or Cottonseed Oil*. Contains 2% or less of: Vital Wheat Gluten, Leavening (glucono delta-lactone, baking soda), Salt, Mono and Diglycerides, Xanthan Gum.*Adds A Trivial Amount Of Trans Fat

Can anyone help me get a start on a copy of this dough?

Thanks!


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2014, 12:05:49 PM »
John,

The problem with what you would like to do is that companies like Pillsbury use commercial/professional ingredients that are readily available to them, and at low cost because of their purchasing power, but hard for individuals to come by at the retail level. And if individuals are able to locate the same ingredients, they can be quite expensive. I'll give you a few examples of what I am talking about. Consider something as simple as Partially Hydrogenated Soybean And/or Cottonseed Oil, or, more commonly, shortening. At the industrial level, that is a cheap and readily available product. But, at the retail level, you will be rather hard pressed to find it. Most shortenings available at the retail level have been reformulated over the years to get the Trans Fats down. The same thing has happened with margarines that can also contain partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil.

Ass for ingredients like glucono delta-lactone, which I understand to be an acidic component of the Leavening used by Pillsbury, and the Dextrose and Xanthan Gum, all of these can be found online at the retail level, but they are not necessarily inexpensive. For example, all three of these ingredients can be found at http://www.myspicesage.com/.

As for the flour, I would guess that Pillsbury is using a basic bleached, enriched, unmalted all-purpose flour like the one described at the General Mills website at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/hr-flour-soft-wheat-all-purpose-bleached-enriched-50-lb/14467000?mct=Flour&ct=all-purpose&typ=Type. However, a pastry flour or a cake and pastry flour can also satisfy the flour component of the ingredients list for the flour used by Pillsbury. See, for example, the GM specs at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/helmet-pastry-flour-bleached-enriched-50-lb/54111000?mct=Flour&ct=pastry&typ=Type and at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/sperry-cake-pastry-flour-bleached-enriched-50-lb/57541000?mct=Flour&ct=pastry&typ=Type.

In your case, and as discussed more fully below, it might be possible to find retail-level substitutes for the ingredients used by Pillsbury, but there is no guarantee that you will achieve the same results. Also, there are many other barriers to reverse engineering and cloning the Pillsbury pizza dough. These include zeroing in on the type of flour that Pillsbury is using; the dextrose/sucrose split of the Sugars; the Sodium split between the sodium in the form of salt, the sodium in the flour, the sodium in the baking soda and the sodium in the xanthan gum; and the percents to be allocated to the above nutrients, and to the glucono delta-lactone, the Vital Wheat Gluten, and Xanthan Gum as well. In this vein, your analysis of the Sodium nutrient is basically correct but it it is not entirely from table salt. As noted above, it also includes the Sodium in the flour, albeit only a few mg, and the Sodium in the baking soda (about 1231mg sodium per teaspoon for a generic baking soda as shown at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/baked-products/5127/2) and the Sodium in the Xanthan Gum. Since there is no other leavening agent, such as yeast, there will have to be enough of the Pillsbury Leavening to allow the dough to rise sufficiently during baking.

If I haven't discouraged you thus far, I will say that there are some tests that you can conduct in a home setting on a sample of the Pillsbury Classic Pizza dough in order to ascertain the type of flour Pillsbury may be using, including an approximation of the protein content, and to determine the hydration of the Pillsbury dough. These tests are the gluten mass test and the hydration bake test. If you would like to proceed with such tests, let me know and I should be able to link you to places where either Norma or I, or both of us, discussed such tests. However, you may well find that it is far easier and cheaper just to continue to purchase the Pillsbury pizza dough product.

Of course, there is also an appproach that you can take that says to use a basic bleached all-purpose flour (even if malted) or a pastry/cake flour supplemented in either case with vital wheat gluten, a common type of shortening with mono and diglycerides (or an inexpensive margarine with the mono and diglycerides and adjusting for the salt and water in the margarine), plain old table sugar, salt, a supermarket baking powder leavening agent (such as Clabbr Girl), and water.

In the above context, 24 grams of Sugar, which presumably includes the added Sugar, the Dextrose and the Sugars in the flour, is equivalent to about two tablespoons of table sugar, although one might want to use less than that because dextrose is about three-quarters as sweet as table sugar (http://owlsoft.com/pdf_docs/WhitePaper/Rel_Sweet.pdf).

Additionally, 12 grams of a basic vegetable shortening, such as a Crisco product, which has the correct ratio of Sat Fat to Total Fat (http://www.crisco.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?GroupID=17&ProdID=803), comes to about a tablespoon. For the water, you would add enough water to the all-purpose flour or pastry/cake flour as supplemented with the vital wheat gluten to approximate the consistency and feel of the Pillsbury pizza dough product. For future purposes, the amounts of flour/VWG and water to achieve that result should be duly noted. By my calculation, backing out the Sugars and Total Fats would leave about 12.5 ounces for all of the other ingredients mentioned above (the flour/vital wheat gluten, water, salt, and leavening agent). I would ignore the Xanthan Gum for now.

For ease of reference, the Pillsbury Classic Pizza dough product is presented at http://www.pillsbury.com/products/pizza-crust/classic-pizza-crust.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 04:04:35 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 02:55:10 AM »
Wow!  Thanks so much for your detailed answer.  I guess I'm not so concerned with an exact clone...as I am with just copying a similar mix with just basic ingredients like: Spring Water, Cane Sugar, Table Salt, Olive Oil, Flour, IDY

I have really made some very good dough with just these 6 ingredients.  Shortening can be pretty tasty in dough...but I am trying to avoid Partially Hydrogenated Fats...So, I would use olive oil.  And, I'd rather use yeast than baking soda or baking powder.

I guess what I could use help with is a double-check on my approximate math.  And I'm fine with measurements being approximate.

I'll measure everything in grams.  I know I'd like to start with a try at around 56 - 58% (flour) hydration, since that is what the dough feels like to me...I can always tweak from there.  Since it appears that they added vital wheat gluten to all purpose flour...and since the protein level appears elevated...my simple attempt at a copy of this (using grocery store ingredients) might be to combine some all purpose flour with bread flour.  We know that the end dough ball is about 390 grams.

I'll probably let the dough cold rise in my fridge for about 3 days...then, after hand spreading into a pan, would rise at room temp for about 3 hours.  I cut the dough into 4s...and then fill with sausage and pepperoni (cheese optional)...and brush with egg wash.  Bake at 425 for about 16 mins.

Let me take a stab at it...and please let me know if my math makes any sense.  I'm not sure how to figure out hydration...and if hydration includes the water and fat...or just the water.  Can you let me know if I'm on the right track with this?

Water                                                                127 grams     56%
Cane Sugar                                                         18 grams        8%
Table Salt                                                            7 grams        3%
Olive Oil                                                             12 grams       5%
Flour (50/50 mix of all purpose and bread flour)        225 grams     100%
IDY                                                                     2 grams        1%
Total                                                                   391 grams





Online Pete-zza

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 10:41:05 AM »
John,

Actually your numbers aren't bad except that the amounts of salt and IDY may be high, and especially the amount of IDY if you are shooting for a three day cold ferment.

But before commenting further and offering some recommendations, I thought that you might find it interesting to see the results of an analysis I conducted to come up with a clone dough formulation for the Pillsbury pizza dough. It is a rough approximation, and I have not done an intensive analysis of the nutrient values, but I think it is reasonably close for our purposes, especially if we are to leverage off of that analysis to get to something that you can use. My analysis also helps me to get an idea as to what style of pizza the Pillsbury dough makes. And, in that vein, the Pillsbury dough appears to make an American style pizza, with an above average amount of sugar, even if we modify the amount of sugar to adjust for the use of the Dextrose as the predominant type of sugar (there is more Dextrose than table Sugar, or sucrose). For my purposes, I used the Clabber Girl baking powder as a proxy for the Pillsbury Leavening, and I tried to come up with an amount of sugar to equalize the Sugars that Pillsbury uses. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, this is what I got:

All-Purpose Flour/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (55%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (9%):
Shortening (5.4%):
Xanthan Gum (Bob's Red Mill brand) (1.8%):
Clabber Girl Baking Powder (1.9%):
Total (175.1%):
222.73 g  |  7.86 oz | 0.49 lbs
122.5 g  |  4.32 oz | 0.27 lbs
4.45 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.8 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
20.05 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.03 tsp | 1.68 tbsp
12.03 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.01 tsp | 1 tbsp
4.01 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.41 tsp
4.23 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.06 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
390 g | 13.76 oz | 0.86 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

You will note that I limited the salt to 2%. My calculations suggest a bit more salt. To keep the salt at 2% or less leads me to believe that Pillsbury is using more baking powder (or baking soda) and/or more xanthan gum than I used for purposes of analysis. To get a better fix on the amount of salt, we would need to know how much Leavening (the baking soda component) and xanthan gum Pillsbury is using.

In your case, you might want to use 2% salt and 0.25% IDY for a three day cold  ferment, and adjust the rest of the weights to achieve a total dough weight of 390 grams. You might also use a bowl residue compensation of about 1.5%.

You also indicated that you would prefer to use olive oil in lieu of shortening. I'd like to suggest that you consider using a shortening product such as sold by Crisco and others. The issue with the old shortening products was the Trans Fats and, before that, the Sat Fats. But the newer shortening products, even the one used by Pillsbury, have been formulated to have 0 Trans Fats (anything below 0.5g of Trans Fats per serving is considered 0). There are still some Sat Fats, but even olive oil contains Sat Fats. Another advantage of using shortening is that it is likely to have less of a wetting effect on the dough because it is in solid form. Olive oil is likely to have more of a wetting effect because it is in wet form. FYI, hydration technically applies only to the amount of water, not the amount of water and fat combined (although I often refer to such a combination as "effective hydration"). If Pillsbury is using a flour blend with an absorption rate of around 60-62%, the combined hydration and fat percents, using either shortening or olive oil, should be a workable combination. However, in either case, some tweaking of the amounts of the flour blend, water and shortening/olive oil may be needed.

Further as to the use of olive oil in lieu of the shortening, at around 5% olive oil, you may find that the olive oil imparts an overly robust flavor to the finished crust. So, if you decide to use olive oil, you may want to use a light, mild flavored form of olive oil.

BTW, I forgot to ask earllier, but can you tell me what size pizza the Pillsbury dough product is intended to make? The packaging material only mentions "Thick Crust".

Please keep us informed as to your progress.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 12:37:46 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2014, 11:50:25 AM »
John,

After my last post, I took the Pillsbury clone dough formulation that I posted, ditched the baking powder leavening and the xanthan gum, and substituted 0.25% IDY for the baking powder leavening. I also tweaked the amounts of shortening and sugar to get them to the desired levels. This is what I got:

All-Purpose Flour/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (55%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (8.7%):
Shortening (5.3%):
Total (171.25%):
227.74 g  |  8.03 oz | 0.5 lbs
125.26 g  |  4.42 oz | 0.28 lbs
0.57 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
4.55 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
19.81 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.97 tsp | 1.66 tbsp
12.07 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.02 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
390 g | 13.76 oz | 0.86 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation.

You will want to note that the flour blend and water weights are closer to what you came up with. Since the shortening does not contain water, you can use the same percentage of olive oil should you decide to use same.

I'd also like to suggest a couple of other options now that I have a better idea as to the type of pizza the Pillsbury dough makes. For example, you may want to take a look at a couple Papa John's clone dough formulations, at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217 and at Reply 585 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667. The version at Reply 585 is a modified and updated version of the one at Reply 20 (including more salt and more sugar than oil, as is the case with the Pillsbury clone dough formulations I posted). Either dough formulation can be modified to produce dough ball weights of 390 grams. You can also elect to use an amount of IDY for either a two day or three day cold ferment. Either clone dough can also be used to make breadsticks or cheesesticks (Papa John's uses the same dough for its pizzas and its breadsticks/Cheesesticks).

Peter

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2014, 03:57:29 PM »
BTW, I forgot to ask earllier, but can you tell me what size pizza the Pillsbury dough product is intended to make? The packaging material only mentions "Thick Crust".

The dough rolls out into a square.  I think most would place it in a 12 x 12 round pan and cut around the edges...or you could say it makes a 12 x 12 square pizza.  For pepperoni rolls, I usually place in an 11 x 17 cookie sheet...and stretch to about 11 x 14 rectangular.  This gives me 4 individual pepperoni rolls...each pepperoni roll has about 1/4 to 3/8 inch thick cooked dough.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 04:01:16 PM by Killmeyer000 »

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2014, 04:05:09 PM »
John,

After my last post, I took the Pillsbury clone dough formulation that I posted, ditched the baking powder leavening and the xanthan gum, and substituted 0.25% IDY for the baking powder leavening. I also tweaked the amounts of shortening and sugar to get them to the desired levels. This is what I got:

All-Purpose Flour/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (55%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (8.7%):
Shortening (5.3%):
Total (171.25%):
227.74 g  |  8.03 oz | 0.5 lbs
125.26 g  |  4.42 oz | 0.28 lbs
0.57 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
4.55 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
19.81 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.97 tsp | 1.66 tbsp
12.07 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.02 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
390 g | 13.76 oz | 0.86 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation.

You will want to note that the flour blend and water weights are closer to what you came up with. Since the shortening does not contain water, you can use the same percentage of olive oil should you decide to use same.

I'd also like to suggest a couple of other options now that I have a better idea as to the type of pizza the Pillsbury dough makes. For example, you may want to take a look at a couple Papa John's clone dough formulations, at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217 and at Reply 585 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667. The version at Reply 585 is a modified and updated version of the one at Reply 20 (including more salt and more sugar than oil, as is the case with the Pillsbury clone dough formulations I posted). Either dough formulation can be modified to produce dough ball weights of 390 grams. You can also elect to use an amount of IDY for either a two day or three day cold ferment. Either clone dough can also be used to make breadsticks or cheesesticks (Papa John's uses the same dough for its pizzas and its breadsticks/Cheesesticks).

Peter

Thank you so much for being there to answer questions like this!!!  I am going to try this one that you posted/configured...and see how it comes out.  I may try the Papa John's clones later.  I'll post back later how it comes out.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2014, 06:11:00 PM »
try this, I promise you won't be disappointed   http://www.paperbackswap.com/Chop-Bread/recipe/5930/
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2014, 04:07:47 PM »
Pepperoni rolls came out very good.  They were different than the pillsbury dough...but good.  Flavor was similar, but one major difference was the amount of puff in the Pillsbury is greater...perhaps I'll add some baking powder to the recipe.  I also think I can detect the difference between the olive oil, and the shortening...and prefer the shortening in this type.  So, next try will be with some baking powder and shortening.  Seemed to me like we were pretty close with our estimates of total dough ball, and hydration.  Here are the pics from last weekends attempt:


Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 04:16:48 PM »
John,

After my last post, I took the Pillsbury clone dough formulation that I posted, ditched the baking powder leavening and the xanthan gum, and substituted 0.25% IDY for the baking powder leavening. I also tweaked the amounts of shortening and sugar to get them to the desired levels. This is what I got:

All-Purpose Flour/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (55%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (8.7%):
Shortening (5.3%):
Total (171.25%):
227.74 g  |  8.03 oz | 0.5 lbs
125.26 g  |  4.42 oz | 0.28 lbs
0.57 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
4.55 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
19.81 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.97 tsp | 1.66 tbsp
12.07 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.02 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
390 g | 13.76 oz | 0.86 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation.

You will want to note that the flour blend and water weights are closer to what you came up with. Since the shortening does not contain water, you can use the same percentage of olive oil should you decide to use same.

I'd also like to suggest a couple of other options now that I have a better idea as to the type of pizza the Pillsbury dough makes. For example, you may want to take a look at a couple Papa John's clone dough formulations, at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217 and at Reply 585 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667. The version at Reply 585 is a modified and updated version of the one at Reply 20 (including more salt and more sugar than oil, as is the case with the Pillsbury clone dough formulations I posted). Either dough formulation can be modified to produce dough ball weights of 390 grams. You can also elect to use an amount of IDY for either a two day or three day cold ferment. Either clone dough can also be used to make breadsticks or cheesesticks (Papa John's uses the same dough for its pizzas and its breadsticks/Cheesesticks).

Peter

FYI...What I did was follow this recipe...but used 100% KABF.  I doubled the recipe...that's why my pics show two dough balls...one dough ball makes 4 pepperoni rolls.  I looked up how much protein was in the Pillsbury classic pizza dough...and then how much protein was in KABF...and it appeared that bread flour would be a good match...or at least it had a similar protein content in the finished dough ball as the Pillsbury.  I also used Olive Oil instead of shortening.

I will go with shortening next time...and add in baking powder.  I would like to keep the yeast...but add in baking powder, but not remove any flour...which will end up at a slightly lower hydration.  I'm not sure how much baking powder to add though.  Based on the previous posts from peter, 4 grams looks like a good starting point for baking powder.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 06:12:33 PM by Killmeyer000 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2014, 06:02:46 PM »
John,

Your pepperoni rolls look very good. How did the members of your family react to them, especially when compared with the pepperoni rolls made from the Pillsbury dough?

As for the oven spring issue and the improved oven spring of the Pillsbury dough as compared with a slowly fermenting dough based on commercial yeast, I would say that the glucono delta-lactone/baking soda Leavening is primarily responsible for the improved rise characteristics of the Pillsbury dough, and perhaps secondarily the Xanthan Gum used by Pillsbury.

When I was researching the glucono delta lactone (GdL) ingredient, I learned that it is a slow acting ingredient at room temperature and when used in a cold formulation but acts very quickly under increases in temperature, as in an oven. This makes that ingredient especially suitable for refrigerated doughs. For a fuller understanding of gdL in the context of a leavened dough, including the production of an acid to work with the baking soda to produce gases (carbon dioxide), see the discussion of GdL at page 4 of this document: http://www.viacheminc.com/wp-content/uploads/Product-Data-Sheet-Glucono-delta-Lactone.pdf. As an aside, I also discovered in my research that Pillsbury is using the GdL/baking soda Leavening in many of its refrigerated doughs, not just its pizza dough.

When I was researching xanthan gum as in ingredient, I read in a Bob's Red Mill blog that one of its functions is to cause the starches to trap air. Maybe carbon dioxide was also meant but the effect in both cases would most likely be to contribute to a more open and airy crumb.

As for the protein nutrient you mentioned, normally I have found the quantities of that nutrient hard to estimate because of rounding factors. However, the protein numbers are more reliable in the context of a raw dough rather than a baked one. But, in the present case, the more useful nutrient for analytical purposes is the Dietary Fiber. Knowing where the dietary fiber exists and in what quantity allows you to work backwards to determine how much of the dietary fiber is attributable to the flour. Once you know that, you can search for flours with that amount of dietary fiber. Unfortunately, in the present case, not all of the Dietary Fiber in the Pillsbury dough is in the flour. As you can see from the xanthan gum Nutrition Facts at http://www.bobsredmill.com/xanthan-gum.html, there is a fair amount of dietary fiber in that product (per serving). When I did my original analysis, I estimated from the Dietary Fiber calculations that the flour was more likely to be either all-purpose flour or a cake/pastry flour, as supplemented with VWG. That analysis was largely a guess because I do not know how much Xanthan Gum Pillsbury uses to make its pizza dough. But the main reason that I ruled out bread flour is because almost all bread flours that I am aware of that are both bleached and enriched are malted, whereas the flour that Pillsbury uses to make its pizza dough is unmalted.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 06:14:19 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2014, 06:38:52 PM »
John,

Your pepperoni rolls look very good. How did the members of your family react to them, especially when compared with the pepperoni rolls made from the Pillsbury dough?

As for the oven spring issue and the improved oven spring of the Pillsbury dough as compared with a slowly fermenting dough based on commercial yeast, I would say that the glucono delta-lactone/baking soda Leavening is primarily responsible for the improved rise characteristics of the Pillsbury dough, and perhaps secondarily the Xanthan Gum used by Pillsbury.

When I was researching the glucono delta lactone (GdL) ingredient, I learned that it is a slow acting ingredient at room temperature and when used in a cold formulation but acts very quickly under increases in temperature, as in an oven. This makes that ingredient especially suitable for refrigerated doughs. For a fuller understanding of gdL in the context of a leavened dough, including the production of an acid to work with the baking soda to produce gases (carbon dioxide), see the discussion of GdL at page 4 of this document: http://www.viacheminc.com/wp-content/uploads/Product-Data-Sheet-Glucono-delta-Lactone.pdf. As an aside, I also discovered in my research that Pillsbury is using the GdL/baking soda Leavening in many of its refrigerated doughs, not just its pizza dough.

When I was researching xanthan gum as in ingredient, I read in a Bob's Red Mill blog that one of its functions is to cause the starches to trap air. Maybe carbon dioxide was also meant but the effect in both cases would most likely be to contribute to a more open and airy crumb.

As for the protein nutrient you mentioned, normally I have found the quantities of that nutrient hard to estimate because of rounding factors. However, the protein numbers are more reliable in the context of a raw dough rather than a baked one. But, in the present case, the more useful nutrient for analytical purposes is the Dietary Fiber. Knowing where the dietary fiber exists and in what quantity allows you to work backwards to determine how much of the dietary fiber is attributable to the flour. Once you know that, you can search for flours with that amount of dietary fiber. Unfortunately, in the present case, not all of the Dietary Fiber in the Pillsbury dough is in the flour. As you can see from the xanthan gum Nutrition Facts at http://www.bobsredmill.com/xanthan-gum.html, there is a fair amount of dietary fiber in that product (per serving). When I did my original analysis, I estimated from the Dietary Fiber calculations that the flour was more likely to be either all-purpose flour or a cake/pastry flour, as supplemented with VWG. That analysis was largely a guess because I do not know how much Xanthan Gum Pillsbury uses to make its pizza dough. But the main reason that I ruled out bread flour is because almost all bread flours that I am aware of that are both bleached and enriched are malted, whereas the flour that Pillsbury uses to make its pizza dough is unmalted.

Peter

Everyone liked the pepperoni rolls...as I mentioned, they said they tasted different but good.  They ate them, and no one complained or wasted a bite.  One of my kids said it reminded him of a soft pretzel.  I would estimate that the leavening/airyness was about 60 to 70 % of the Pillsbury.  Other than that, the taste was sort of close.  I think there was something missing in mouth-feel that i hope will be corrected with shortening.

I see what you mean about the GdL and Xanthan Gum.  I'm hoping that a yeast and double-acting baking powder combo will somewhat replicate the leavening...since it will also rise during the bake.  It sounds sort of like GdL and xanthan gum are perhaps more stable...and might help the Pillsbury-type doughs to have a longer shelf-life without changes in flavor, etc...as opposed to yeast/baking powder combo.

Next try will stay with bread flour for now...so i can evaluate the change that the baking powder makes.  after that, i might try the all-purpose/VWG combo...if i can find the VWG?

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2014, 07:10:28 PM »
John,

As the previously referenced Bob's Red Mill website mentions, one of the characteristics of the xanthan gum is to produce a creamy texture. That is likely to be the main cause of the mouthfeel that you found lacking in your dough. When I was trying to find a ratio of xanthan gum to flour, just about every recommendation I found was for gluten-free flours, not regular flours. I wasn't particularly surprised by that because xanthan gum is very common and very popular in gluten-free products.

Vital wheat gluten (VWG) is found in many supermarkets, usually in the flour, yeast and other baking ingredients section. Near where I live, the Hodgson Mill VWG is the one that is most often offered. However, VWG is also sold by Arrowhead Mills and Bob's Red Mill. King Arthur also sells it but it is sourced from a VWG supplier. The tool that I use to determine how much VWG to add to a given flour to raise its protein content to a desired value is the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com. There are several brands of VWG in the pull-down menu, including the four brands mentioned above.

Peter


Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2014, 11:32:03 PM »
What the heck...I'm having fun with it.  Maybe I'll try to get my hands on some of these strange ingredients...like xanthan gum and VWG.  I even found a place where food grade GdL can be purchased cheap in small quantities: 

http://www.myworldhut.com/products/Glucono-delta%252dLactone-%28GdL%29-Pure-Crystalline-Powder-Bulk.html

I'll post back when/if I get a hold of some of these ingredients.

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2014, 08:12:34 PM »
John,

I picked up where I last left off and did some more searching on the use of xanthan gum in refrigerated dough. One interesting and informative article I found on the subject was the article at http://www.foodnavigator.com/Science-Nutrition/Gummy-boost-for-refrigerated-doughs?utm_source=copyright&utm_medium=OnSite&utm_campaign=copyright . What I found interesting is that the xanthan gum can also function to prevent or reduce leaking of water from the dough while in its package. Whether that function is the primary reason why Pillsbury used xanthan gum is hard to say. But, that said, the xanthan gum may still have the added effect of creating a more open and airy crumb.

In another article I found, at http://books.google.com/books?id=Nze8hLpVmasC&pg=PA346&lpg=PA346&dq=xanthan+gum,+amount+to+use,+dough,+-gluten-free?&source=bl&ots=Aj3I6woe6C&sig=cDtbKagMDhsDCb1Fru97KcmPpFU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=utrVUunhO_KpsASw8IGAAQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwCTgU#v=onepage&q=xanthan%20gum%2C%20amount%20to%20use%2C%20dough%2C%20-gluten-free%3F&f=false , it was reported that the amount of xanthan gum to use is 0.25-2% (by weight of flour). From an analytical standpoint, the Dietary Fiber of the xanthan gum may dictate the specific flour to be used and also the amount of VWG. However, I haven't thought that far ahead at this point. The goal is to get the right Dietary Fiber and Protein numbers.

Peter

« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 08:19:36 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2014, 10:53:19 PM »
Ok...Cool.  When I have the ingredients, I'll post back...and maybe you would be so kind as to help estimate quantities...and what to do with GdL, if I can get my hands on some.  We cut another pepperoni roll from the first attempt open today.  Here is a pic of the crumb on the first attempt.  Pillsbury has a slightly more open, less dense crumb...and, there is definitely something about the Pillsbury that's more soft/creamy.  Should be fun to try the new ingredients.

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2014, 11:27:57 PM »
Hey Peter,

OK...I have AP Flour, shortening, Hodgeson Mill Vital Wheat Gluten, Bob's Red Mill Xanthan Gum, Baking Soda and GdL.  Wanna take a shot at this?

Back to the beginning:  A full Pillsbury package has 390 total grams.
Total fat in a full package is 12grams.
Sodium in a full package is 2820 mgs. Salt is 39.3% sodium...So, If my math is right, I would guess at 7180 mgs of salt(7.2 gms).
Sugars in a full package are 24 grams.
Protein in a full package is 30 grams.  What kind of flour might that be?  All Purpose?
Fiber is a full package is 6 grams.

Ingredients are:
Enriched Flour Bleached (wheat flour, niacin, ferrous sulfate, thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), Water, Dextrose, Sugar, Partially Hydrogenated Soybean And/or Cottonseed Oil*. Contains 2% or less of: Vital Wheat Gluten, Leavening (glucono delta-lactone, baking soda), Salt, Mono and Diglycerides, Xanthan Gum.*Adds A Trivial Amount Of Trans Fat

Vital Wheat Gluten is 8g of protein in a 12 gram serving...or 67% protein.  And 1g fiber
AP Flour is 3 grams protein in 30 grams...or 10% protein.  And less than 1g fiber.  Since the Pillsbury flour is bleached, probably    AP Flour?
KABF is 4 grams protein in 30 grams...or 13.3% protein.  And less than 1g fiber.
Xanthan Gum has 260 mg sodium in 9 grams.  And 7 grams fiber.

Any ideas?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 11:29:39 PM by Killmeyer000 »


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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2014, 12:17:29 PM »
John,

Good job getting all of the ingredients together.

First, some preliminary matters.

Do you plan to use Pillsbury bleached all-purpose flour, or some other brand? A General Mills flour would seem likely since GM Sales sells the Pillsbury Classic Pizza Crust (see http://www.generalmills.com/Home/Brands/Baking_Products/Pillsbury/Brand%20Product%20List%20Page.aspx).

On the matter of the sodium, in my calculations I use 2325mg sodium for a teaspoon of ordinary table salt, and I use 28.35 grams per ounce as a conversion factor from ounces to grams. Those are more accurate numbers than are ordinarily used but I have been doing it my way for as long as I can remember. So, by my calculations, 2820mg of sodium is equivalent to 6.77 grams of ordinary table salt. However, the difference between your number (7.2 grams) and mine is so small as to essentially unmeasurable. Also, the 2820mg of sodium is spread out over several ingredient.

The 30 grams of protein for the full package of Pillsbury dough doesn't tell the whole story because of rounding factors and, in addition, there is protein not only in the flour used to make the dough but also in the VWG. As an example, the KABF has 12.7% protein, not 13.3%.

Finally, is there a particular brand of baking powder you will be using?

Peter

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2014, 12:57:10 PM »
John,

Good job getting all of the ingredients together.

First, some preliminary matters.

Do you plan to use Pillsbury bleached all-purpose flour, or some other brand? A General Mills flour would seem likely since GM Sales sells the Pillsbury Classic Pizza Crust (see http://www.generalmills.com/Home/Brands/Baking_Products/Pillsbury/Brand%20Product%20List%20Page.aspx).

On the matter of the sodium, in my calculations I use 2325mg sodium for a teaspoon of ordinary table salt, and I use 28.35 grams per ounce as a conversion factor from ounces to grams. Those are more accurate numbers than are ordinarily used but I have been doing it my way for as long as I can remember. So, by my calculations, 2820mg of sodium is equivalent to 6.77 grams of ordinary table salt. However, the difference between your number (7.2 grams) and mine is so small as to essentially unmeasurable. Also, the 2820mg of sodium is spread out over several ingredient.

The 30 grams of protein for the full package of Pillsbury dough doesn't tell the whole story because of rounding factors and, in addition, there is protein not only in the flour used to make the dough but also in the VWG. As an example, the KABF has 12.7% protein, not 13.3%.

Finally, is there a particular brand of baking powder you will be using?

Peter

Sure, I can use Pillsbury Bleached AP Flour.  It is easy to find.

For sodium, I'm thinking that around 6 grams might be a good starting place.  Higher than that might be too salty.

Yeah, I'm not too sure what to do with the protein...or how to estimate the ratio of AP flour to VWG to end up with around 30 grams of protein.  I was hoping you could take a more educated/experienced guess at this ratio.  Looking back at one of your attempts, the AP Flour is around 230 grams, which might yield around 30 grams of protein...making the VWG a very small player...I'm just not sure what to do with this ratio.  Can you help?

If we use baking powder, I would use Clabber Girl.  However, the leavening on the Pillsbury wrapper is listed as GdL and Baking Soda. I have GdL and baking soda, but I'm not sure how much to use?

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2014, 03:16:21 PM »
John,

Since my prior analysis was to a large degree predicated on a modified scenario, I will perhaps press the Reset button and go back to square one with the new set of ingredients.

Also, I erroneously said baking powder in my last post. I meant the brand of baking soda. Sorry about that.

When you have a chance, can you weigh a level teaspoon of the glucono delta-lactone so that we can convert from weight to volume?

Peter
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 05:58:27 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2014, 06:04:26 PM »
John,

Since my prior analysis was to a large degree predicated on a modified scenario, I will perhaps press the Reset button and go back to square one with the new set of ingredients.

Also, I erroneously said baking powder in my last post. I meant the brand of baking soda. Sorry about that.

When you have a chance, can you weigh a level teaspoon of the glucono delta-lactone so that we can convert from weight to volume?

Peter

Baking soda would be Arm & Hammer.  One level teaspoon of GdL weighs 5 grams.

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2014, 08:03:48 PM »
John,

Thank you for the information on the Arm & Hammer and the GdL products. I should have something for you in a day or so. However, for convenience of future reference, I will be relying on the Arm & Hammer Nutrition Facts for the baking soda as given at http://www.shopwell.com/arm-hammer-baking-soda-pure/other-baking-ingredients/p/3320001130.

As for the GdL, I have been researching how much of it should be used in relation to the baking soda. There are a lot of technical articles out there that discuss GdL but precious few that say how much should be used in relation to the baking soda. However, I did find an article at http://www.mybreadmix.co.nz/modules/cpshop/breadshop.php?op=prod&sid=65, presumably out of New Zealand, that suggests a ratio of 2.2:1 of GdL to baking soda. If we interpret the Pillsbury Classic Pizza dough as given at http://www.pillsbury.com/products/pizza-crust/classic-pizza-crust to say that there is more GdL than baking soda, by placing the GdL ahead of the baking soda, then the ratio given in the mybreadmix article may be a useful starting point for your next clone.

Preliminarily, my calculations up to this point suggest that the flour that Pillsbury is using, presumably a General Mills flour, is not the same as the Pillsbury bread flour that you will be using, which is a malted flour that is beneficial when yeast is used by not necessary for a chemical leavening system. I mention the difference in the two flours because my calculations of Dietary Fiber suggest a higher value of Dietary Fiber for the Pillsbury bread flour than reported in the Pillsbury Classic dough Nutrition Facts. For now, I am assuming that the Pillsbury bread flour that you will be using has a protein content of around 11% and will be boosted by the VWG to around 11.5%.

My Sodium numbers, which are based mainly on the sodium content of the baking soda and the xanthan gum, and to a minor degree on the sodium in the flour, also are higher than the Nutrition Facts say for the Pillsbury Classic dough. However, this is not worrisome at this point. In this vein, it should be noted that the FDA allows a 20% swing in the values of nutrients listed in Nutrition Facts. In fact, knowing this, it is common for food processors to underreport on the "bad" nutrients, like sodium and cholesterol, and to overreport on the "good" nutrients, like dietary fiber and protein. They also know that the FDA won't do anything about anything they report so long as people are not being harmed to the point where the FDA would order recalls of products or take other disciplinary action. My numbers fall within the 20% rule. My Total Carbs and Protein numbers are in line with the Nutrition Facts for the Pillsbury Classic Pizza dough.

Peter

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2014, 04:30:43 PM »
John,

I did some calculations and used the expanded dough calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the dough formulation set forth below.

By way of background and explanation of what I did, you will note that I took the salt and the xanthan gum (the Bob's Red Mill brand) to the 2% maximum and the Leavening (the GdL and the Arm & Hammer baking soda combined) to 1.9%, or just shy of the 2% maximum. I used a ratio of about 2.2:1 for the GdL and the baking soda. The amount of sugar was established to be roughly equivalent from a sweetness standpoint to a combination of table sugar and dextrose. For the shortening, I used Crisco vegetable shortening as a proxy for the commercial/industrial shortening that Pillsbury uses, mainly because the Crisco product has the right Total Fat and Sat Fat profile.

In order to determine how much of the Hodgson Mill VWG to add to the Pillsbury bleached all-purpose flour to raise the protein content of the Pillsbury flour (assumed to be 11%) to 11.5%, I used the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/. The amount of VWG came to about 0.90%, so it is below the 2% threshhold.

You will also note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. That was done to increase the total dough weight by 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. When the dough has been made, you should reduce its weight to 390 grams by trimming off (on the scale) anything in excess of 390 grams. In order to come up with the final formatting of the dough formulation, I modified the output of the expanded dough calculating tool to reflect what I did (including using one of the unused entry boxes as a proxy for the xanthan gum). This is what I ended up with:

Flour/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (55%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (8.8%):
Bob's Red Mill Xanthan Gum (2%):
Crisco Vegetable Shortening (5.4%):
Arm & Hammer Baking Soda (0.6%):
Glucono-delta Lactone (GdL) (1.3%):
Total (175.1%):
226.07 g  |  7.97 oz | 0.5 lbs
124.34 g  |  4.39 oz | 0.27 lbs
4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
19.89 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.99 tsp | 1.66 tbsp
4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.51 tsp
12.21 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.4 tsp | 1.2 tbsp
1.36 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp
2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp
395.85 g | 13.96 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour/VWG Blend comprises 224.1 grams (7.90 ounces) of Pillsbury bleached all-purpose flour and 2 grams (0.68 teaspoon) of Hodgson Mill VWG
Note: The final dough weight (trimmed) should be 390 grams; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As an aside, if you are wondering whether the ingredients listed as being 2% or less have to be listed by order of predominance, the answer is no:

The US Code of Federal Regulations (21 CFR 101.4) states that ingredients must be listed in descending order of predominance based on weight. The following exception is made in 21 CFR 101.4(2):

The descending order of predominance requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section do not apply to ingredients present in amounts of 2 percent or less by weight when a listing of these ingredients is placed at the end of the ingredient statement following an appropriate quantifying statement, e.g., "Contains __ percent or less of _" or "Less than _ percent of __." The blank percentage within the quantifying statement shall be filled in with a threshold level of 2 percent, or, if desired, 1.5 percent, 1.0 percent, or 0.5 percent, as appropriate. No ingredient to which the quantifying phrase applies may be present in an amount greater than the stated threshold.

Thus, each ingredient is 2% or less of the total weight. They are also exempt from the order by weight requirement. The manufacturer is free to order the subset of < 2% ingredients however they please.

Source: 21 CFR 101.4

Peter



« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 06:24:38 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2014, 06:02:43 PM »
Awesome...I really appreciate the work you put into this.  I'll try it and post back...probably this weekend.

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2014, 06:31:34 PM »
John,

Projects like this teach me a lot of things I never knew before. A good example is the GdL and the xanthan gum and how they work and can be used in the context of a pizza dough. For me, the exercise is fun and interesting, not work.

I look forward to your results. It often happens that some tweaking of ingredients is necessary, although there are limitations on the amounts of the ingredients that can be used. An example of this is the hydration since there is no way to know what its value is from looking at ingredients lists and Nutrition Facts. One way to deal with this is to do a hydration bake test. But this can await your results.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 06:36:34 PM by Pete-zza »


 

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