Author Topic: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust  (Read 19323 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2006, 06:14:18 PM »
To draw as contrast between a San Felice pie baked in a home oven versus a high-temperature oven, I made a 13” SF pie today in my home oven. The dough was fermented in my wine cooler at around 65 degrees F (estimated average) for about 26 hours, followed by about 4 hours of refrigeration, and another 2 hours at room temperature in preparation for dressing and baking. My intent originally was to ferment the dough for about 12 hours in the wine cooler and, after reshaping, to let the dough rise for about another 3-5 hours. When the dough did not rise during the 12-hour period, I reshaped and returned it to the wine cooler for an overnight stay. By morning, it had increased in size by about 50%. Since I wasn’t ready to use the dough at that time, I put it into the refrigerator for about 4 hours, when I was ready.

The baker’s percents I used were 100% SF flour (7.89 oz.), 60% water (4.73 oz.), 2.5% sea salt (1 t.), 1% oil (1/2 t.), and 5% preferment (0.39 oz.). The total dough weight was 13.27 oz., with a thickness factor of 0.10—about the same as a NY thin style. The preferment was intentionally prepared to be on the stiff side, along the lines recommended in one of Marco’s posts. At 60% hydration, the dough was very soft and a bit damp but I managed to shape it into a 13” round without using a lot of bench flour and to load it into the oven.

The pizza was baked on a preheated pizza stone (at 500-550 degrees F for about an hour) on the lowest oven rack position for about 5 minutes, and was then transferred to a set of tiles arranged on the uppermost oven rack position directly under the broiler. There, the pizza was exposed to direct heat from the broiler, which had been turned on about 3 minutes into the bake cycle. The pizza was under the broiler heat for about 1-2 minutes. Even before exposing the pizza to the broiler, the top of the crust had modest browning.

The photos below show the finished pizza—a cheese pizza. It was very tasty with a fluffy and chewy crust with very good oven spring. For the next iteration of the pizza, I plan to use a more liquid preferment and a thinner crust. I will also most likely reduce the amount of preferment to get it into the 5% range as measured with respect to the weight of water rather than the flour. I also plan to slightly increase the hydration and to omit the oil.

Peter


Offline pftaylor

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2006, 07:24:01 PM »
Wow. Talk about a doubleheader.

First Bill/SFNM then Pete-zza. Two of the most respected members post pictures of their bombshell efforts all within hours of one another. Can it get any better than this?

I can't wait to see the first Lolita come out of the wood burning Goliath. It could set a new standard for excellence - in anyone's judgment. They say repetition is the mother of learning but it appears that Bill/SFNM is the exception to that rule. He knocked the cover off the ball so early in the process I wonder how much he has left to improve. The best flavor and texture he has ever eaten? Since Bill/SFNM is not one given to speaking in absolutes, I am inclined to take him at his word and frankly couldn't be happier for him. If true, Bill/SFNM can now die in peace - much like the Red Sox fans who were finally able to celebrate absolute victory a couple of years ago after decades of misery.

Pete-zza's effort seems to have so much fluff in the rim it looks like it contains helium.  You are a pizzamaker of the highest rank - even without the woodburning oven. The pie looks spectacular. I look forward to your continued efforts.

Guys, I have a favor to ask. Please don't stop making pies anytime soon and take plenty of pictures...
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline scott r

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2006, 05:02:38 AM »
You guys are killing me.  Stuck in LA with no time oven or ingredients to make pies.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

Can't wait to get back home in a few weeks to try this new flour.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2006, 05:06:30 PM »
My latest experiment with the San Felice flour is more about technique and procedure than anything else. If the dough isn’t right before going into an oven, it may not matter that you have the best possible oven available to you. So, with this thought in mind, for the most recent iteration of the San Felice pizza I tried to improve upon the dough preparation and management. For the latest experiment, I used the following formulation:

100%, San Felice pizza flour, 7.08 oz. (200.72 g.), 1 1/2 c. + 2 T. + 1t. (spoon and level technique)
63%, Water (warm, about 90 degrees F), 4.46 oz. (126.36 g.), a bit over 1/2 c.
2.7%, Sea salt, 0.19 oz. (5.52 g.), 1 t.
3.1%, Preferment (Ischia), 0.22 oz. (6.22 g.), about 1 t.
Total dough weight = 11.95 oz. (338.67 g.)
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.09
Pizza size = about 13 inches
Note: All measurements U.S./metric standard

I should mention a few things about the above formulation. First, the hydration, at 63%, was selected to be as high as possible and consistent with the apparent capability of the San Felice flour to handle that level of hydration. Second, the preferment was in solid form, as often recommended by Marco (pizzanapoletana), and based on the Ischia starter. It was about 5% by weight of water, the upper end of the 1-5% range that Marco has often mentioned. The preferment had been refreshed and allowed to sit for a few hours at room temperature before using. Third, the thickness factor selected, 0.09, was quite a bit higher than normally used for authentic Neapolitan pizzas. I chose the higher level because I was using a home oven and did not want to end up with a cracker-like crust. Fourth, the formulation does not call for any oil. I elected to omit it on the theory that the thicker dough would render it unnecessary. I had done this recently with a Caputo-based pie and found that it worked nicely.

The procedure I followed to make the dough was similar to what I recently used to make a Caputo based dough (see Reply 94 at page 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25807.html#msg25807), and is as follows. I started by placing the warm water in the bowl of my standard KitchenAid stand mixer. I then added the salt and stirred it into the water until completely dissolved, about 30 seconds. I added the preferment and, using my fingers, I dissolved the preferment into the “brine”. I then added about 2/3 to 3/4 of the flour to the bowl, by about a tablespoon at a time, and mixed everything together. I used only the “stir” speed of the mixer and, as the ingredients were mixing, I used a long thin-bladed plastic spatula to scrape down the sides of the bowl and move the ingredients into the path of the dough hook. Once the flour was absorbed, but without creating a glutinous structure (which I did not want at this stage), I continued to add the remaining flour, continuously but gradually, until it was absorbed into the dough mass. Again, using only the “stir” speed of my mixer, I kneaded just until the dough cleared the sides of the bowl with a bit of the dough sticking to the round convex protrusion at the center of the mixing bowl. To get the dough to this exact stage, I made slight adjustments to the amounts of flour and water. I have found this to be a reliable way of getting the dough consistency I am after, in this case, a slightly wet and tacky dough that just wants to stick to your fingers and not pull away.   

Once the dough was finished, I subjected it to a 15-minute riposo (rest) within the bowl itself (covered to prevent a crust from forming). At the end of the riposo, I put the dough on a lightly-floured work surface and used the standard punch and fold technique (recommended by pieguy and others on other threads) in order to get better dough strength to retain the gases of yeast fermentation. Because the dough was still sticky and wanting to stick to the work surface, I used a bench knife to manipulate the dough, as is often done with high-hydration bread doughs (ciabatta dough being a good example). After about a couple of minutes of doing this, I put the dough in a container that was minimally oiled just at the bottom and sides to keep the dough from sticking and to facilitate its later removal from the container. Normally, I would have put the container directly into the temperature-controlled wine unit I have been using to create a good fermentation environment for dough. But from recent experiments using the wine unit, I have tentatively come to the conclusion that it may be a bit on the cool side. So, for the most recent San Felice pie, I left the dough at room temperature for about 2 hours to warm up and thereby ferment a bit faster before placing it into the wine unit. In addition, to further speed up the fermentation, I put the container into a second container (also covered), so as to create a greater thermal mass to the wine unit environment. That way, I wouldn’t have to change the operating temperature of the wine unit (about 55-65 degrees F, or roughly within the ideal 64.4-68 degrees F range, or 18-20 degrees C, recommended by Marco).

While the dough was in the wine unit, I periodically watched its development. I was especially mindful of the rise of the dough. Marco had on several occasions mentioned that during the first stage of fermentation the dough should not rise noticeably, and that after reshaping and dividing the dough it should rise but not double or triple in volume during the second stage of fermentation. For the recent experiment, it took around 16 hours for the dough to start to rise. I then reshaped the dough and let it ferment/ripen for about another 6 hours. During that 6 hours, the dough rose by about 25%. A telltale sign that the dough was most likely ready to be used was the presence of large numbers of gas bubbles that had formed at the bottom and sides of the container (I was using a translucent Rubbermaid container). I experienced the same phenomenon recently when I made the Caputo-based dough referenced above, so I believe it to be a reliable indicator that one can safely rely on. 

The dough was shaped into a roughly 13” round on a very lightly floured work surface. The dough was wet and sticky to the touch and I preferred to keep it that way as much as possible and not to add too much bench flour, since that would defeat the purpose of using high hydration in the first place and it could contribute to bitterness in the finished crust. I was able to lift the dough and stretch it to the 13-inch size even though it was highly extensible, and to get it onto a lightly dusted peel. After dressing the skin, I deposited it onto a pizza stone (on the lowest oven rack position) that I had preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. After about 5-6 minutes on the stone, I then transferred it to the top oven rack position and exposed the pizza to about 1 to 2 minutes of direct heat from the broiler element, which I had turned on during the final minute or two on the stone.

The photos below show the finished product. The pizza (a cheese pizza) was first rate, with a soft and chewy crust with superior crust flavor. The oven spring was less than what I am usually accustomed to, even with a Neapolitan-style crust, but the crust was not cracker-y in any respect and the part of the crust away from the rim was actually quite soft with good oven spring. It did not have the bread-like texture that Marco finds uncharacteristic of authentic Neapolitan crusts.

It might also be noted from the photos that the sauce is bright red. The sauce was put on the pie uncooked, but since cooking in a home oven for 7-8 minutes--as opposed to a minute or so in an authentic Neapolitan oven--takes away some of the freshness and brightness of the sauce, I added a bit of fresh sauce to the pizza as soon as it came out of the oven. The “new” sauce warms from the heat of the pie itself but remains remarkably fresh tasting and with a bright red color. I found doing this, along with having a very tasty crust, to provide an overall exceptional pizza, especially for a home oven environment. I am sure that the high quality of the San Felice flour also had something to do with it.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 12:26:03 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2006, 08:39:30 AM »
Side-by-side comparisons: Caputo vs. San Felice
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Two contradictory statements have been stuck in my mind:

1. The San Felice/Camaldoli pies I have been baking are superior in taste to the Caputo ones I have made

2. Marco says that Caputo flour will have better tasting crusts

So I can only conclude that either:

A. The method I use for preparing and baking needs to be optimized for the characteristics of Caputo

and/or

B. Marco and I simply have different opinions of what tastes better.

I have jumped to the conclusion that San Felice is a superior flour for my tastes, but I really want to put this to the test. Perhaps what I really need to do is to change my methods and I'll come around to Marco's point of view.  I see it this way: each combination of flour/culture/methods has one (or more) sweet spots, a place where all of the many factors come together to produce the perfect pie. I have a pretty good feeling that I am in or close to the sweet spot for San Felice. That I stumbled into this combination may be due to the fact that San Felice has a large sweet spot. That is, it is less demanding and can produce good results over a larger range of factors.

Others have commented in this forum that Caputo is less forgiving, that conditions must be just be right, so perhaps it has a relatively smaller sweet spot than San Felice. If Marco is right about Caputo being superior in taste, then it is very possible that I have never encountered its sweet spot.

So I'm going to run a series of side-by-side tests that I hope will help me better understand this issue which is really just an extension of what I have been doing all along these past few years: trying to find out what factors are optimized to produce the best crust. The difference now is that I have two flours that are worthy of the hassle of side-by-side tests rather than serial tests several days apart.

So, the first test I began yesterday. Using the method that produced such delicious San Felice pies, I have created two batches of dough - identical in every way except that one contains Caputo and the other San Felice. This test will not necessarily tell me how to make a better Caputo pie, but for the first time I will taste at the same time the best San Felice and the best Caputo pies I can make. Perhaps I'll be able to identify in which direction I will need to take the Caputo method.

One observation already from preparing both doughs in an identical method in identical conditions: the kneaded SF dough was less sticky, took less time to come together, and was more supple and elastic. Also, after 10 hours of room temp fermentation, both doughs seem have risen exactly the same amount.

Tomorrow I bake the pies for lunch. Can't wait to see the results.

At Marco's suggestion, I hope to run a test next week of dough using commercial yeast only to remove the interaction between the cultures and the flour - to get a true measure of the flavor contributed just from the flour.


Bill/SFNM





 

« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 08:43:19 AM by Bill/SFNM »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2006, 01:59:41 PM »
OK, just baked up a bunch of pies using Caputo and San Felice doughs. Results:

1. The San Felice dough continued to be the easiest to handle, softer and less sticky. It needed much less bench flour than the Caputo doughs.
2. All four of us agreed that the San Felice crusts were softer and three of us felt the San Felice was the more flavorful. The tests were blind in that the tester was given two pieces of crust and didn't know which was which.
3. However, the flavor of the Caputo dough, although not as good as the San Felice in the majority opinion, was better than it has ever been for me. I'd say the San Felice was a 10, the Caputo was a 9, whereas it had previously been an 8.

The tests were done with pizzas topped only with olive oil. In this photo, the San Felice is the one at the bottom:

Next test: commercial yeast only.

Bill/SFNM

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2006, 03:16:10 PM »
San felice is a stronger flour and therefore absorbe more water, which in turn will mean  less sticky. Also with  stronger flour is easier to make something that look softer buy in reality is gummy like....

The other things a stronger flour is more forgiving then the Caputo Pizzeria. Even the red Caputo one is better forgiving,  which means that someone less experience can make a good product whilst he would not make it with a Caputo Pizzeria

Another aspects is the post eating: without offence to anyone, but you guys in America are more used to eat heavy stuff (I mean heavy on the stomach, as to digest). San felice or other stronger flour will remain on your stomac for ages. In Naples there is a pizzeria called Pellone. Well that pizza seam so soft, but will take you 8 hours before you feel light again....

Finally, try to add about 100g more flour (per liter) then you normally would to the caputo, and check how smooth and less sticky it become, more like the San Felice....

Ciao

PS keep us updated with your finding.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2006, 05:03:37 PM »
marco,

I think I know what you mean about gummy and I would say these pies were not at all gummy. And I definitely know what you mean about indigestible pies  :(. I think I ate about a single pie (O.K., plus another 1/2 pie while cleaning up). So far these don't seem to be sticking inside my stomach.  ;D

I will try adding more flour to the Caputo. By my calculation that would lower hydration from 64.0% to 60.6%.  That will be an interesting test.

Thanks for the help.

Bill/SFNM

Offline Peteg

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2006, 11:40:46 AM »
Hey everyone, I thought this topic was probably the best place to post my pics of last nights pie.  It was made with Grande fresh mozz, Santa Sweet grape tomatoes and 100% Caputo.  I baked it around 900 for 2.5 minutes.  Like Scott R recommended, lately I have been letting the dough sit in dry flour for about two minutes before shaping it.  That’s been working well for me as this crust was crispy on the outside with a nice chewy interior.  One other note, I switched from IDY to fresh cake yeast a couple of weeks ago and that’s added a lot of flavor to the dough.  After the pie came out of the oven, I topped it with EVOO and a little salt.  All in all, it had lots of flavor and I think it turned out well.  Hope this helps.  Pete

Offline scott r

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2006, 01:54:44 PM »
Peteg, thats a great looking pie.  I also love the grande fresh mozzarella.   I think their fresh cheese is probably the best commercially available cows milk mozzarella cheese that I have found.  I am still not sure if I feel the same way about the processed mozzarella they make for normal pizza.  Keep up the good work, and keep posting.

I was wondering how you obtain your high temperatures.

Also, have you tried buffalo mozzarella yet?


Offline visitor

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2006, 03:31:56 PM »
Scott r, I put my oven on the clean cycle for about 50 minutes with the stone on the top rack.  After 50 minutes, I shut it down for 10 minutes and start it up again.  This is the only way that I can get the broiler to stay on as long as I need it to.  After I restart the clean cycle the oven stays on broil for about 3.5 minutes which is plenty of time to bake my pies.  When I throw the pie in, the stone reads about 800 and although it's difficult to measure the heat 3" above the stone I think it's safe to say that it's around 900-950.  (In the past I've taken the measurement above the stone by placing a sheet of tin foil over the stone and measuring that after about 10-15 minutes.  I haven't done that with this setup yet.)
I do like the grande fresh mozz and I'm lucky enough that a local grocery store carries it.  I would like to try the buffalo mozz but I haven't been able to find it locally yet.  Do you order yours or do you get it locally?  Pete

Offline scott r

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2006, 05:13:11 PM »
wow, that is an unusual way to bake pies.  I am glad that you were able to figure that out and get it to work for you.   I am not sure I understand why you have to turn off the oven and wait.  Is this because the oven will not open during the cleaning cycle?

I am very lucky to live in Boston where we have numerous sources for buffala at the retail and wholesale level.  This cheese is so expensive to begin with that I would not bother paying shipping charges for it.  If you do get  a chance to try some, and it is fresh, you might even prefer it to the grande.  For now you can rest assured that you are cooking with some excellent cheese.

Offline Peteg

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2006, 06:46:43 PM »
I have to shut the cleaning cycle off and leave it off for ten minutes so that the temp drops enough to where I can restart the cleaning process.  If I try to put a pie in there after it's been heating up for 45 minutes, the broiler will only stay on for about 15 seconds.  When I turn it off for ten minutes and then restart it, the broiler stays on for about 3.5 minutes.  The lock has never been a problem.  I had to play around with it for a while and I eventually came up with this solution.  That's good to hear that I'm not missing that much with the buffalo mozz but like you said, I will certainly try it when I get the opportunity.  Oh yeah, I wanted to thank you for the tip about letting the dough sit in the flour for a couple minutes.  That seems to be making a nice difference.  On a different note, I dropped off my brick oven plans to our local fire inspector today and he seems to be ok with everything so far.  Now I just have to get by the zoning.  I would sure like to accomplish that this summer.  We'll see.  Take care, Pete

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2006, 10:22:27 PM »
Based on Marco's suggestion to try crusts made from both Caputo 00 and San Felice using only commercial yeast to isolate the flavor contribution of just the flour, I finally got around to creating two batches (actually 3, see below) of identical dough, varying only the brand of flour. Each dough was baked up without topping and I had my wife give me samples of each crust in a blind taste test. The blind part wasn't really necessary since I have come to recognize the flavor of each of these flours. The flavor of the San Felice was distinctly deeper and more interesting. The Caputo had somewhat less flavor. Perhaps others would come to different a conclusion, but this test confirms my individual preference for San Felice.

On a related note, I also created a batch using the San Felice and the French starter from Ed Wood. The resulting flavor was somewhat sweeter than the Camaldoli, and different but VERY delicious. I won't say it was better than the Camaldoli, but it is definitely worthy of future testing.

I'm not going to be able to post much during the next few months, but I will definitely be sticking with the San Felice for now and tweaking my method to see where it takes me. I'll try to report my results when I can.

Bill/SFNM

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2006, 08:47:12 AM »
De gustibus non est disputandum (There is no dispute about taste)

We obviously look at two different desired results and if you have found what you were looking for for your ideal product we have agree to disagree.

On a separate note, I have just returned from a long week-end in Naples, where I had some of the best pizza ever, all at Salvo pizzeria. Me and Ciro see the pizza same way...... It definetelly is the best pizza in Naples at the moment. Same dough as at Da Michele but with better care to the smallest details.

Ciao

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2006, 11:49:36 AM »
De gustibus non est disputandum (There is no dispute about taste)


I hear you! What I can say is that my gustibus has been evolving and things I preferred a year ago are no longer my favorites. I'm going to stick with San Felice for several months, I think, but I'll then give Caputo another try to see what by taste buds tell me. There is also a chance I'll be in Naples in October and will endeavor to eat as much pizza at as many places as possible to "recalibrate" my system.

Bill/SFNM

Offline Peteg

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2006, 10:59:17 PM »
Here are some pics from this evenings pie.  Made with 100% Caputo 00 at a 56% hydration level.  The 56% is calculated including the preferment.  Without adjusting for the preferment the hydration would have been about 52%.  I posted these pics because I thought the rise time might be of interest to some of the people that follow this topic.  It had a 65 degree rise for about 36 hours.  All in all, it turned out well.  The preferment was definitely more noticeable than the 12 hour rises that I've been using as of late.  I'm torn between which I like better.  12 or 36.  Bill, on the first page of this topic you mention using Giusto's bread flour for pizza.  Did you ever try that?  I've been trying to find a source for their high gluten flour but haven't been successful as of yet.  I've heard that Chris Bianco uses Giusto's so I figured it was worth a shot.   Pete

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: New Collaborative Standard - Tampa Fe Crust
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2006, 08:43:01 AM »
Bill, on the first page of this topic you mention using Giusto's bread flour for pizza.  Did you ever try that?  I've been trying to find a source for their high gluten flour but haven't been successful as of yet.  I've heard that Chris Bianco uses Giusto's so I figured it was worth a shot.   Pete

Peteg,

No, I have only been using Giusto's bread flour for making bread - I like it very much. Here is a source for their hi-gluten flour but I do notice they are out of stock: http://www.worldpantry.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/CategoryDisplay?cgmenbr=132201&cgrfnbr=171236.

Bill/SFNM