Author Topic: Special technique for this pizza crust?  (Read 3286 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2014, 12:27:25 PM »
Zoe, you're welcome.

Chicago Bob and I are not being rude. Not to you, anyway (or anyone else who actively participates on the boards). Conversely, all we've done is try to help you. We've asked you specific questions because they are important questions that can help us help you. From my perspective, your refusal to help us help you has been rude, and you're lucky anyone is still willing to go out of their way to help you with this, especially since you keep asking for answers that everyone but you knows we'd probably actually be able to give you if you'd only answer our questions.

You told us why you refuse to let us know certain things we've asked you, but contrary to your claim, your reasoning has not been logical. We didn't ignore you or disregard your explanation for why you won't tell us things we need to know so we can help you. Rather, we tried to help you see that your explanation is lame and pointless, but without actually using those words, in hopes that you'll let us help you.

Other members are thinking the same thing--lame and pointless--but they will probably never say it because they're uncomfortable being impolite, even though they know such impoliteness would be infinitely more helpful to you than politeness.

Knowing which specific ingredients this place uses is probably not going to help you (or anyone else) figure out how to clone their pizza. Conversely, knowing something about the pizza (like who sells it) will help us immensely, first of all because we'd be able to take our time to read what other people have to say about it; how they describe the pizza and whatnot. If you want help, allow people to help you. But if you don't want help...

I want to say I don't care anymore, and I want to say I'm no longer willing to try to help you, but I can't say that. That's either because I'm a rude jerk or it's because I'm not a rude jerk and I'm just being honest because I find that honesty is almost always the best policy.

You won't be hurting us by refusing to post again. You'll only be hurting yourself.

And now that fazzari has joined the conversation, you might like to know that fazzari has shared pretty much everything about how he makes pizza at his very successful pizzeria. And Norma has done the same thing with the pizzas she sells at market. Neither of them try to hide their identity, either. That is, we all know exactly who they are and where to find them. And if I had a pizzeria, I'd do the same thing. You know why? Because sharing this stuff is not a big deal to reasonable people.

By the way, great-looking pizza, John.


Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2014, 01:56:12 PM »


Chicago Bob, you’re just now seeing that response I wrote to you? I wrote that nearly 2 weeks ago. So what would have been the point of me responding with the name of the pizzeria when it seems you don’t even go back and follow up on questions you ask.
When I said: " OK...just found this above post."   I was talking out loud in reference to what had just been said in the post above mine. You really should try and follow along with the flow of conversation before trying to get petty about my memory. Of course I saw your post 2 weeks earlier....but even if I had missed it; that has nothing to do with the conversation. Seems like just another goofy diversion that you keep pulling out of a hat...and like I said; tricks are for kids. Oh well, see ya around, have fun.

Bob
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Offline norma427

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2014, 03:13:28 PM »
Norma;
Hard fat flakes are (I'm going to use a bad word her, so look away in you will be offended) heavily "HYDROGENATED" fats that due to the hydrogenation process are now very hard, much like soap flakes in both size and appearance (do you remember American Family soap flakes?) I'm dating myself here and anyone else who admits to remember them. These hard fat flakes are added to the dough in much the same manner as raisins are added to a raisin bread dough. The result is a mixture of fat flakes and dough which imparts the appearance of a laminated dough. The BLITZ method of making pastry calls for taking butter and cutting it up into small pieces, about the size of a cherry pit on the small end and about the size of the cherry on the large end. The butter is then refrigerated to completely harden it, the dough is mixed in the normal manner and about 5-minutes before the mixing is complete the frozen butter is added and mixed just to distribute the butter pieces throughout the dough mass. The amount of butter added to the dough in this case is the same as the amount of roll-in that would typically be used in making Danish, about 20 to 25% of the dough weight before addition of the butter. The dough is then given one or two foldings for lamination and the process is complete. This eliminates the need to roll the dough, add the roll-in fat, fold the dough, rest the dough, roll it again, give it a laminating fold (3-fold or 4-fold), resting the dough, rolling it again, give it another laminating fold, rest the dough, and then take it to the bench for forming into pastries. As you can see, this is a lot of work as others here have already alluded to. I'm sure you can Google the process for more details. If anyone is looking for the hard fat flakes I think Bungee (Kankakee, Illinois) is still a supplier as is ConAgra Foods.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

I am not offended by any bad words.  I have been here on earth long enough to hear all of the bad words there are.  I know the word hydrogenated is bad though.  I do recall American soap flakes but did not know there were hard fat flakes in the soap flakes.  I can now see how the hard fat flakes with dough imparts the appearance of laminated dough.  Thanks also for explaining the Blitz method of making pastry. 

I did Google hard fat flakes last evening and I think Cargill also sells them.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2014, 03:27:52 PM »
 You tickle me sometimes Norma... :)

Tom said the fat flakes look sort of like soap flakes.
I don't think you'd want to add fat to your wash load. But you never know....maybe the smell would help people suddenly feel hungry as they walk by your Market stand!  ;D
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 03:31:57 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline JD

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2014, 04:11:48 PM »
tourmaline,

I think it's important to understand you'll find some extremely passionate members on this board that like a new challenge, and the word "clone" usually means serious business. If you really want to clone this pizza, you'll probably have to indulge a little more. If you're just having fun like most of the members here, start experimenting with the great information you've already received and share your results. We're all here for the same reason, after all?



 
Josh

Offline norma427

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2014, 04:34:15 PM »
You tickle me sometimes Norma... :)

Tom said the fat flakes look sort of like soap flakes.


Bob,

I guess I was thinking about laundry flakes that can contain things like beef tallow and coconut oil. My bad. 

Norma
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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2014, 04:38:15 PM »
Bob,

I guess I was thinking about laundry flakes that can contain things like beef tallow and coconut oil. My bad. 

Norma
Well that just shows how much I don't know about laundry flakes.
Beef tallow huh?  Hmmm....."for that old school Micky D's french fry smell" !  ;D

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline fazzari

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2014, 10:27:53 PM »
John.  Way to go man!  I was hoping you would weigh in here.  I knew you could easily make a pizza as good or better than the "mystery" pizza.  Yours looks fantastic!
Thanks Tim, but realize this was simply one interpretation of a "picture".  I can think of maybe 3 or 4 more ways to duplicate the looks in the picture, but they would all have a different texture.  I wish I could actually taste and see the original.  Still, very fun stuff!

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2014, 10:32:27 PM »
Wow John, that laminated crust of yours looks fantastic!  ;D Great job!  :chef: Are you going to start another thread of what baker's percents you used for your dough? I sure would like to try a laminated crust like you posted.  I don't see any signs of docking.  Is that right?

The crust was "delicious" Norma.  I used my everyday 34% hydration, high gluten All Trumps dough.  Did not dock.  The neat thing is , the experiment got me to thinking more about home lamination (I've worked at it alot in the past), and I think I might have a breakthrough.  Did a test at home today,....we'll see how it turns out.  If it's a winner, I'll certainly share.
John

Offline norma427

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2014, 10:37:05 PM »
The crust was "delicious" Norma.  I used my everyday 34% hydration, high gluten All Trumps dough.  Did not dock.  The neat thing is , the experiment got me to thinking more about home lamination (I've worked at it alot in the past), and I think I might have a breakthrough.  Did a test at home today,....we'll see how it turns out.  If it's a winner, I'll certainly share.
John

John,

Great to hear the crust was delicious.  ;D That is a low hydration.  :o I am glad you think you might have a breakthrough in home lamination.  Best of luck!   You sure are vauable resourse with all of your experimenting and the results you have achieved.

Norma
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Offline Zing

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2014, 12:58:14 AM »
Even though I am not good at Rätsels, crossword puzzles, etc., I just spent about an hour trying to decode the name of the pizza joint in question, with no luck. Now I have a reason for trying to clone Shakey's: the closest one to me is in Auburn, Alabama and a restaurateur bulldozed a nearby building that used to be a Shakey's so he could build a casual dining place because he can make more money that way. Shakey's, Inc. has been offering franchises for a few years now but they just don't sell. Even the guy in Warner Robins, GA went independent last year.

After re-reading tourmaline's posts, I see it is a place local to her. So, is this trip really necessary? Maybe taking this course at the American Institute of Baking:
https://secure.aibonline.org/php/agenda.php?CatalogNbr=377
would be more productive.

I get cranky when I can't figure out puzzles. So I hereby propose a new rule for this forum: posts asking for help in trying to clone pizzas without including name, rank, and serial number shall be taken down.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2014, 10:26:53 AM »
I get cranky when I can't figure out puzzles. So I hereby propose a new rule for this forum: posts asking for help in trying to clone pizzas without including name, rank, and serial number shall be taken down.

Zing,

I have been involved in over a couple dozen reverse engineering and cloning projects, and I would agree with you that not knowing who the target pizzeria or company is makes it much more difficult to tackle the project. The reason is that knowing who the target entity is opens up a lot more research opportunities, where, for example, you may be able to find articles and videos and audio clips and blogs on the target entity, reviews of the target entity's pizza (e.g., Yelp and food writers), possibly a clone recipe here or there, leads on equipment, ingredients and brand names and suppliers, and comments and opinions of members on the forum and, on occasion, of present or former employees.

But, in this case, I am going to defend Zoe. It is her prerogative to refrain from naming the target entity. As she has indicated, she is not yet done with her dumpster diving and does not want to jeopardize that effort in the event the pizza owner were to learn that there are people out there trying to divine their trade secrets. It isn't often that an independent pizza operator is going to be alerted to the efforts of people on a forum about their operations but it does sometimes happen. In fact, it happened just recently. See, for example, startavern's introductory post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29829.0.html . I also recall reading about a similar situation for another well known independent pizza operator but I could not find the article where the matter was discussed (after the pizza operator read something that a person said online about the pizza operator and his pizzas).

Maybe in due course Zoe will change her mind once she has exhausted her dumpster diving or other related efforts to divine the trade secrets of the target pizzeria. But even is she does eventually reveal the name of the target pizzeria, that doesn't necessarily get her out of the woods. Without an ingredients list and Nutrition Facts or other related nutrition information (which independent pizza operators never have) and details relating to the physical aspects of the target pizza, like weights of the baked pizzas and also of ingredients like sauce and cheese, and the sizes of the pizzas, it is almost impossible to reverse engineer and clone the target pizza, at least with any assurance, simply from photos and personal observations. The best example I can cite on this is the NJ Boardwalk thread at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.0.html. It was only because I wanted to help Norma come up with a NJ boardwalk pizza to offer at market that I got involved in that project, although I will admit that I like the intellectual challenges that go along with such projects. You will note that that thread is 90 pages long with 1786 posts to date. But, apart from that case, you will almost never see me get involved with reverse engineering and cloning projects involving independent pizza operators.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 10:32:28 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2014, 11:48:15 AM »
Great info Tom...thank you. I've never heard of the "dry laminating procedure" before. I was thinking the first pic at the top of this thread looked like some pretty dry dough....maybe that's "the big secret".  :)


Bob

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Offline pythonic

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2014, 11:56:58 AM »
Norma;
Hard fat flakes are (I'm going to use a bad word her, so look away in you will be offended) heavily "HYDROGENATED" fats that due to the hydrogenation process are now very hard, much like soap flakes in both size and appearance (do you remember American Family soap flakes?) I'm dating myself here and anyone else who admits to remember them. These hard fat flakes are added to the dough in much the same manner as raisins are added to a raisin bread dough. The result is a mixture of fat flakes and dough which imparts the appearance of a laminated dough. The BLITZ method of making pastry calls for taking butter and cutting it up into small pieces, about the size of a cherry pit on the small end and about the size of the cherry on the large end. The butter is then refrigerated to completely harden it, the dough is mixed in the normal manner and about 5-minutes before the mixing is complete the frozen butter is added and mixed just to distribute the butter pieces throughout the dough mass. The amount of butter added to the dough in this case is the same as the amount of roll-in that would typically be used in making Danish, about 20 to 25% of the dough weight before addition of the butter. The dough is then given one or two foldings for lamination and the process is complete. This eliminates the need to roll the dough, add the roll-in fat, fold the dough, rest the dough, roll it again, give it a laminating fold (3-fold or 4-fold), resting the dough, rolling it again, give it another laminating fold, rest the dough, and then take it to the bench for forming into pastries. As you can see, this is a lot of work as others here have already alluded to. I'm sure you can Google the process for more details. If anyone is looking for the hard fat flakes I think Bungee (Kankakee, Illinois) is still a supplier as is ConAgra Foods.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,
 
Do the hard flakes need to be kept cold though while in the dough before baking to achieve those layers?

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline norma427

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2014, 02:19:31 PM »
Nate,
I found this article by Tom Lehmann interesting.  http://www.pizzatoday.com/industry-news/oils-affect-dough/  Maybe you can understand it better than I can.  It does say that the fat flakes melt during baking.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 06:49:33 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!