Author Topic: Special technique for this pizza crust?  (Read 5234 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2014, 11:13:13 AM »
I don't get what all the secrecy is all about....you're just a customer there, right Zoe? Is the owner a Pizza Nazi and going to ban you?
" Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

Bob
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2014, 11:27:08 AM »
Yeah, and as I just learned by reading one of the threads Norma linked to, at least one person brought this up a few months ago, then that thread immediately died and has not been touched in three months. And at least three of us have brought this up in this thread.

If you don't ever want to receive any answers to the questions you've asked, keep being secretive.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2014, 12:11:26 PM »


Chicago Bob: Sorry, but I never reveal the name/location of this pizzeria on this forum. The reason is because I know this forum's posts show up in Google searches, and I don't want the owner to find the name of his pizzeria on this forum and see that someone is trying to copy their pizza. They're already paranoid enough as it is!
OK...just found this above post.

Please tell me Zoe; why have you now become "paranoid", is there maybe something bad in that guys pizza?  ;D  You might want to reconsider cloning it!

If they are so paranoid and won't share any clues with you then why in the world would you care what they might "see" on the internet? Do you fear that if they "find out" someone is "watching them very closely" they will quickly close their "hallowed" doors and secretly remain trapped behind their knowledge for Eternity, denying you your favored pizza pie?

If I wanted that pizza I would not give a rats arse about those folks and would try to give full disclosure to as many pizza intellect I could attract here on this site.

You are going about this all backwards IMO friend.
Tricks are for kids!  ::)

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2014, 12:31:07 PM »
Just to add a little fuel to the fire, a number of years ago a number of wholesale pizza manufacturers were offering pizzas made on what they called either a croissant or Italian pastry type of crust. I've got slides of it in my old pizza presentation materials. When we replicated the crusts we were able to do so in a manner already described, that is by sheeting the dough thin, brushing it with a very light coating of oil and then folding the dough to get the laminations. This was repeated a number of times until the finished crusts had a similar appearance, much like the pictures provided. We were also able to replicate the crust characteristics using what is called a dry laminating procedure which is how saltine crackers are made. The dough is sheeted very thin, allowed to dry/skin over (with the help of IR heaters and fans) and then folded/laminated to achieve the desired internal structure. The last method we used was to incorporate hard fat flakes into the dough which also worked very well. By this method the dough is made a little softer than normal and hard fat flakes are added to the dough during the last few minutes of mixing, the dough can be used as it is, but best results were had when the dough was given a single lamination. If anyone ever spent time working in a retail bakery you might recognize that method as the "blitz" method on making pastry dough.
One of these methods was so successful at replicating the target product so as to earn me a visit by two corporate attorneys representing the company producing the target crust. No, they did not have a case and I was not sued for giving away their trade secrets, but in view of the attention I drew from them, I must have been awfully close to what they were actually doing.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2014, 12:45:03 PM »
...trapped behind their knowledge...

Love it.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2014, 12:46:59 PM »
Great info Tom...thank you. I've never heard of the "dry laminating procedure" before. I was thinking the first pic at the top of this thread looked like some pretty dry dough....maybe that's "the big secret".  :)


Bob
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2014, 12:48:32 PM »
Love it.
Yeah...I added that lil tidbit just for you Ryan. Knew you's remember that guy!  :-D

Bob
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2014, 12:53:47 PM »
Apparently that guy must have actually found a way to physically trap himself behind knowledge, because I don't think he has refused to share any of his valuable insight in a couple years.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline norma427

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2014, 01:20:29 PM »
Just to add a little fuel to the fire, a number of years ago a number of wholesale pizza manufacturers were offering pizzas made on what they called either a croissant or Italian pastry type of crust. I've got slides of it in my old pizza presentation materials. When we replicated the crusts we were able to do so in a manner already described, that is by sheeting the dough thin, brushing it with a very light coating of oil and then folding the dough to get the laminations. This was repeated a number of times until the finished crusts had a similar appearance, much like the pictures provided. We were also able to replicate the crust characteristics using what is called a dry laminating procedure which is how saltine crackers are made. The dough is sheeted very thin, allowed to dry/skin over (with the help of IR heaters and fans) and then folded/laminated to achieve the desired internal structure. The last method we used was to incorporate hard fat flakes into the dough which also worked very well. By this method the dough is made a little softer than normal and hard fat flakes are added to the dough during the last few minutes of mixing, the dough can be used as it is, but best results were had when the dough was given a single lamination. If anyone ever spent time working in a retail bakery you might recognize that method as the "blitz" method on making pastry dough.
One of these methods was so successful at replicating the target product so as to earn me a visit by two corporate attorneys representing the company producing the target crust. No, they did not have a case and I was not sued for giving away their trade secrets, but in view of the attention I drew from them, I must have been awfully close to what they were actually doing.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Very interesting information Tom.  8) Could you tell us what hard fat flakes are?  I never heard of the "blitz" method in making pastry dough. 

Norma


Offline fazzari

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2014, 01:23:07 AM »
Hey all....after catching the pictures of this mysterious pizza, I thought I'd give it a whirl.  From the looks it really isn't that thin....but here is the plan I used.  I took a piece of dough and sheeted it extremely thin.  I then folded it up into a 7 layer piece.  This was again sheeted very thin.  I then applied a thin coating of oil on the sheet and again folded into a 7 layer piece.  I sheeted this piece, but not too thin, just enough to get one piece of dough and to make about one quarter inch.  I cut out my skins and refrigerated overnight.  After baking and tasting, I think the process could be done without the layer of oil....if one uses laminated sheets, and laminates those (not too tightly), I think you can get the same results.  The pizza by the way, was delicious.  The bottom was crisp, and your top teeth don't feel like they touch anything until they get to the very bottom.  By the way, if you look closely, at the individual laminated sheets within the crust itself, you can see why laminated doughs can be so tender.....look at all of the tiny pinholes......yes!
John

Offline tourmaline

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2014, 02:29:04 AM »
Fazzari: The crust looks beautiful. That's the closest to the pics I've posted that I've seen by a non-restaurant pizza.

Dough Doctor: Thanks for the interesting post. You're lucky it was just lawyers, Norma has posted articles about murders and violence linked to cheese and pizzeria secrets on the Eastern Seaboard. Scary stuff!!

Norma: Thank you for you for being so nice. The person who PMed me has never been to the restaurant, he was just a really good and clever researcher!
I bought the Cracker Barrel Vermont White Sharp Cheddar today and will start experimenting with it tomorrow evening probably. I love cheddar so even if it doesn't work on my pizzas I can always use it on crackers.  :)

Chicago Bob & Ryan:
Come on you guys, chill out. Your posts are coming close to rudeness, and for what reason? I stated very logically in Reply #6 why it would not be a good idea for me to disclose this restaurant on the board right now when I still want to do some snooping in their bin in hopes of finding info. Yet you guys keep belaboring this issue over and over again. And going back into my old posts, throwing it in my face that my old thread ďdidnít take off,Ē Ryan? Play nice. I know that I have a very solid point about why I don't want to name the place, even if you don't think so.
You just keep pressing and pressing, unwilling to let this go.  I am not insulting people by not revealing this place, and yet yíall are acting like Iíve offended you deeply or b!tch-slapped your mother or something.

Chicago Bob, youíre just now seeing that response I wrote to you? I wrote that nearly 2 weeks ago. So what would have been the point of me responding with the name of the pizzeria when it seems you donít even go back and follow up on questions you ask. And I'm going about this backward? You don't think that I can find much more information by looking at the packaging this restaurant uses than I could on a forum where the chances that a regular member is familiar with and has knowledge of this restaurant's pizza is extremely slim (since I'm from a small city in a rural region out West)? I don't think I'm going about it all wrong, I think I'm going about this right. You just don't like it because no one likes being denied information they ask about, and plus you're jumping on Ryan's "Let's give Zoe a hard time" bandwagon.

Guys, I have posted on this forum about my misadventures with this pizzeria because I like the advice it elicits and I assume that maybe one or two people might find it amusing or interesting. I will not do that anymore. If I post again on the forum it will be about my experiences with flour, crushed tomatoes or cheeses. I wonít be bringing up or providing photos of this particular restaurant because it seems that their pizza provokes a savage madness in people, driving them to fits of  desire, paroxysms of pleasure, and flirtations with rudeness.  lol
But seriously, itís not worth it. I'll continue my quest on my own.

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2014, 03:21:11 AM »
John.  Way to go man!  I was hoping you would weigh in here.  I knew you could easily make a pizza as good or better than the "mystery" pizza.  Yours looks fantastic!

Any thread on laminated pizza has my full attention, but this one sure is different.


Tim
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 12:03:10 PM by RockyMountainPie »

Offline norma427

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2014, 08:15:03 AM »
Hey all....after catching the pictures of this mysterious pizza, I thought I'd give it a whirl.  From the looks it really isn't that thin....but here is the plan I used.  I took a piece of dough and sheeted it extremely thin.  I then folded it up into a 7 layer piece.  This was again sheeted very thin.  I then applied a thin coating of oil on the sheet and again folded into a 7 layer piece.  I sheeted this piece, but not too thin, just enough to get one piece of dough and to make about one quarter inch.  I cut out my skins and refrigerated overnight.  After baking and tasting, I think the process could be done without the layer of oil....if one uses laminated sheets, and laminates those (not too tightly), I think you can get the same results.  The pizza by the way, was delicious.  The bottom was crisp, and your top teeth don't feel like they touch anything until they get to the very bottom.  By the way, if you look closely, at the individual laminated sheets within the crust itself, you can see why laminated doughs can be so tender.....look at all of the tiny pinholes......yes!
John

Wow John, that laminated crust of yours looks fantastic!  ;D Great job!  :chef: Are you going to start another thread of what baker's percents you used for your dough? I sure would like to try a laminated crust like you posted.  I don't see any signs of docking.  Is that right?

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2014, 08:26:00 AM »

Norma: White Sharp Cheddar today and will start experimenting with it tomorrow evening probably. I love cheddar so even if it doesn't work on my pizzas I can always use it on crackers.  :)


Zoe,

The Cracker Barrel White Cheddar is not the only white cheddar you could play around with.  There are other white cheddars in our area but I don't know what brand of white cheddars your local supermarkets carry.

A couple of times I had luck in purchasing mozzarella from a local pizzeria by telling them I really liked their cheese on their pizzas and I wanted to know if I could purchase some to make Lasagna, but really used it to make pizza.  I don't know if that would work for you or not.

Norma

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2014, 10:11:56 AM »
Norma;
Hard fat flakes are (I'm going to use a bad word her, so look away in you will be offended) heavily "HYDROGENATED" fats that due to the hydrogenation process are now very hard, much like soap flakes in both size and appearance (do you remember American Family soap flakes?) I'm dating myself here and anyone else who admits to remember them. These hard fat flakes are added to the dough in much the same manner as raisins are added to a raisin bread dough. The result is a mixture of fat flakes and dough which imparts the appearance of a laminated dough. The BLITZ method of making pastry calls for taking butter and cutting it up into small pieces, about the size of a cherry pit on the small end and about the size of the cherry on the large end. The butter is then refrigerated to completely harden it, the dough is mixed in the normal manner and about 5-minutes before the mixing is complete the frozen butter is added and mixed just to distribute the butter pieces throughout the dough mass. The amount of butter added to the dough in this case is the same as the amount of roll-in that would typically be used in making Danish, about 20 to 25% of the dough weight before addition of the butter. The dough is then given one or two foldings for lamination and the process is complete. This eliminates the need to roll the dough, add the roll-in fat, fold the dough, rest the dough, roll it again, give it a laminating fold (3-fold or 4-fold), resting the dough, rolling it again, give it another laminating fold, rest the dough, and then take it to the bench for forming into pastries. As you can see, this is a lot of work as others here have already alluded to. I'm sure you can Google the process for more details. If anyone is looking for the hard fat flakes I think Bungee (Kankakee, Illinois) is still a supplier as is ConAgra Foods.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2014, 12:27:25 PM »
Zoe, you're welcome.

Chicago Bob and I are not being rude. Not to you, anyway (or anyone else who actively participates on the boards). Conversely, all we've done is try to help you. We've asked you specific questions because they are important questions that can help us help you. From my perspective, your refusal to help us help you has been rude, and you're lucky anyone is still willing to go out of their way to help you with this, especially since you keep asking for answers that everyone but you knows we'd probably actually be able to give you if you'd only answer our questions.

You told us why you refuse to let us know certain things we've asked you, but contrary to your claim, your reasoning has not been logical. We didn't ignore you or disregard your explanation for why you won't tell us things we need to know so we can help you. Rather, we tried to help you see that your explanation is lame and pointless, but without actually using those words, in hopes that you'll let us help you.

Other members are thinking the same thing--lame and pointless--but they will probably never say it because they're uncomfortable being impolite, even though they know such impoliteness would be infinitely more helpful to you than politeness.

Knowing which specific ingredients this place uses is probably not going to help you (or anyone else) figure out how to clone their pizza. Conversely, knowing something about the pizza (like who sells it) will help us immensely, first of all because we'd be able to take our time to read what other people have to say about it; how they describe the pizza and whatnot. If you want help, allow people to help you. But if you don't want help...

I want to say I don't care anymore, and I want to say I'm no longer willing to try to help you, but I can't say that. That's either because I'm a rude jerk or it's because I'm not a rude jerk and I'm just being honest because I find that honesty is almost always the best policy.

You won't be hurting us by refusing to post again. You'll only be hurting yourself.

And now that fazzari has joined the conversation, you might like to know that fazzari has shared pretty much everything about how he makes pizza at his very successful pizzeria. And Norma has done the same thing with the pizzas she sells at market. Neither of them try to hide their identity, either. That is, we all know exactly who they are and where to find them. And if I had a pizzeria, I'd do the same thing. You know why? Because sharing this stuff is not a big deal to reasonable people.

By the way, great-looking pizza, John.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2014, 01:56:12 PM »


Chicago Bob, youíre just now seeing that response I wrote to you? I wrote that nearly 2 weeks ago. So what would have been the point of me responding with the name of the pizzeria when it seems you donít even go back and follow up on questions you ask.
When I said: " OK...just found this above post."   I was talking out loud in reference to what had just been said in the post above mine. You really should try and follow along with the flow of conversation before trying to get petty about my memory. Of course I saw your post 2 weeks earlier....but even if I had missed it; that has nothing to do with the conversation. Seems like just another goofy diversion that you keep pulling out of a hat...and like I said; tricks are for kids. Oh well, see ya around, have fun.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline norma427

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2014, 03:13:28 PM »
Norma;
Hard fat flakes are (I'm going to use a bad word her, so look away in you will be offended) heavily "HYDROGENATED" fats that due to the hydrogenation process are now very hard, much like soap flakes in both size and appearance (do you remember American Family soap flakes?) I'm dating myself here and anyone else who admits to remember them. These hard fat flakes are added to the dough in much the same manner as raisins are added to a raisin bread dough. The result is a mixture of fat flakes and dough which imparts the appearance of a laminated dough. The BLITZ method of making pastry calls for taking butter and cutting it up into small pieces, about the size of a cherry pit on the small end and about the size of the cherry on the large end. The butter is then refrigerated to completely harden it, the dough is mixed in the normal manner and about 5-minutes before the mixing is complete the frozen butter is added and mixed just to distribute the butter pieces throughout the dough mass. The amount of butter added to the dough in this case is the same as the amount of roll-in that would typically be used in making Danish, about 20 to 25% of the dough weight before addition of the butter. The dough is then given one or two foldings for lamination and the process is complete. This eliminates the need to roll the dough, add the roll-in fat, fold the dough, rest the dough, roll it again, give it a laminating fold (3-fold or 4-fold), resting the dough, rolling it again, give it another laminating fold, rest the dough, and then take it to the bench for forming into pastries. As you can see, this is a lot of work as others here have already alluded to. I'm sure you can Google the process for more details. If anyone is looking for the hard fat flakes I think Bungee (Kankakee, Illinois) is still a supplier as is ConAgra Foods.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

I am not offended by any bad words.  I have been here on earth long enough to hear all of the bad words there are.  I know the word hydrogenated is bad though.  I do recall American soap flakes but did not know there were hard fat flakes in the soap flakes.  I can now see how the hard fat flakes with dough imparts the appearance of laminated dough.  Thanks also for explaining the Blitz method of making pastry. 

I did Google hard fat flakes last evening and I think Cargill also sells them.

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2014, 03:27:52 PM »
 You tickle me sometimes Norma... :)

Tom said the fat flakes look sort of like soap flakes.
I don't think you'd want to add fat to your wash load. But you never know....maybe the smell would help people suddenly feel hungry as they walk by your Market stand!  ;D
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 03:31:57 PM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline JD

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2014, 04:11:48 PM »
tourmaline,

I think it's important to understand you'll find some extremely passionate members on this board that like a new challenge, and the word "clone" usually means serious business. If you really want to clone this pizza, you'll probably have to indulge a little more. If you're just having fun like most of the members here, start experimenting with the great information you've already received and share your results. We're all here for the same reason, after all?



 

Offline norma427

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2014, 04:34:15 PM »
You tickle me sometimes Norma... :)

Tom said the fat flakes look sort of like soap flakes.


Bob,

I guess I was thinking about laundry flakes that can contain things like beef tallow and coconut oil. My bad. 

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2014, 04:38:15 PM »
Bob,

I guess I was thinking about laundry flakes that can contain things like beef tallow and coconut oil. My bad. 

Norma
Well that just shows how much I don't know about laundry flakes.
Beef tallow huh?  Hmmm....."for that old school Micky D's french fry smell" !  ;D

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline fazzari

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2014, 10:27:53 PM »
John.  Way to go man!  I was hoping you would weigh in here.  I knew you could easily make a pizza as good or better than the "mystery" pizza.  Yours looks fantastic!
Thanks Tim, but realize this was simply one interpretation of a "picture".  I can think of maybe 3 or 4 more ways to duplicate the looks in the picture, but they would all have a different texture.  I wish I could actually taste and see the original.  Still, very fun stuff!

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2014, 10:32:27 PM »
Wow John, that laminated crust of yours looks fantastic!  ;D Great job!  :chef: Are you going to start another thread of what baker's percents you used for your dough? I sure would like to try a laminated crust like you posted.  I don't see any signs of docking.  Is that right?

The crust was "delicious" Norma.  I used my everyday 34% hydration, high gluten All Trumps dough.  Did not dock.  The neat thing is , the experiment got me to thinking more about home lamination (I've worked at it alot in the past), and I think I might have a breakthrough.  Did a test at home today,....we'll see how it turns out.  If it's a winner, I'll certainly share.
John

Offline norma427

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Re: Special technique for this pizza crust?
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2014, 10:37:05 PM »
The crust was "delicious" Norma.  I used my everyday 34% hydration, high gluten All Trumps dough.  Did not dock.  The neat thing is , the experiment got me to thinking more about home lamination (I've worked at it alot in the past), and I think I might have a breakthrough.  Did a test at home today,....we'll see how it turns out.  If it's a winner, I'll certainly share.
John

John,

Great to hear the crust was delicious.  ;D That is a low hydration.  :o I am glad you think you might have a breakthrough in home lamination.  Best of luck!   You sure are vauable resourse with all of your experimenting and the results you have achieved.

Norma


 

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