Include Diastatic Malt or VWG in Poolish?

[Wazza McG]

I was wondering what the forum thought if you used Diastatic Malt or Vital Wheat Gluten (VWG) in the poolish or do you think it would be better mixed in the final dough preparation.

Regards,

Wazza McG

[Pete-zza]

Wazza McG,

That's a good question and I don't know how bakers deal with it. Since both are additives to flour and used at relatively low levels, I would think that you could put the diastatic malt and/or vital wheat gluten in the flour and use a part of the mixture for the poolish. If the diastatic malt is of the messy wet form, it might be easier to add it later when you incorporate the poolish into the rest of the dough. If you decide you want to add the wet malt to the poolish, I think the question is how much of it to add. You perhaps don't want to add all of it because it might overwhelm the poolish. I personally would add a proportionate amount to the poolish in that case.

Peter

[loch]

I think that you might run into a situation where you're over feeding the yeast/dough with the malt, resulting in a faster rise.

I started baking in a Serbian monastery when I was about 8. We used what now would be called a poolish type starter, very wet. Although most of what I learned was "school of hard knocks" I still bake that way, including in my pizza dough. I have always figured you wanted to get a very slow, and therefore, flavorful rise, and that's what the old timers back then told me. I would save the additions for the main dough, but I'm happy to learn from anyone of a more scientific nature.

Dave

[varasano]

I wouldn't put anything in poolish except flour and water. 

[Wazza McG]

Peter,

The reason for the thread was based on a few factors I read here.

http://www.taunton.com/finecooking/pages/c00053.asp

I saw pro's and cons for both, in the end, you have to control the yeast and let the bacteria do it's job as well.  That's the way I read it anyway.

The last sub-heading is what captured my attention.  It reads as follows.

Yeast has help in producing flavorful compounds. Bacteria are important flavor builders as well. There are bacteria in the dough from the beginning, but as long as the yeast is very active, it consumes sugars as quickly as they're produced, leaving no food for the bacteria, which also like sugar. But when bakers chill a dough and slow down its rise, the cold dramatically reduces yeast activity. The bacteria, on the other hand, function well even in cold temperatures, so they now have an opportunity to thrive, producing many more marvelously flavorful acids.

The pro's the way I see it is this;

1.  Give the poolish the gluten and malt  to feed the yeast - the amount of yeast used is critical over the time you want it to ferment, hence, the bacterial activity - or lack of it  -  is subjected to your fermentation time.

Varasano,

I see merit in flour and water only too - it seems that your method suggests bacterial growth initially - then spiked with yeast in the final dough formulation.
PS - I enjoyed the good read at your site.  Send me some Patsy preferment   

Either way, I thought it would be of interest for members to discuss it.

Loch,

I am from hard knocks too, but have no background knowledge of baking like you have.

This is what I have tried.

I added just under 1% of Dry Diastatic Malt (Dark) to the poolish - and later added just over 2% of Vital Wheat Gluten to the final dough.  The pizza turned out to be my second best - so the fans say (the kids), they are the harshest critics lol.  Too many variables to discuss my harsh experiment, though, I am starting to quantify it for personal interest.  What got me moving was that I started thinking that the Vital Wheat Gluten should of been added first in the poolish and then add the missing sugars in the final dough to help with browning.  Now here is the sticky point with me - the bacteria need to feed off sugar too.   Hmmmmmmmmm.

Enjoying the Journey,

Wazza McG

PS - I know it's not bread, just appreciating similar principles!

[loch]

Wazza McG,

Thanks for posting the article. I can see what got you thinking. What we always did (and I still do) is to use cool water to start with and allow the starter to sit at room temp for about 2 hours. Then, before going into the fridge, give it a good stir to get the gluten going again. This was never kept for more than 2 days.

It seems to me that the big variable with the malt would be how long you keep the starter and how much the bacteria and yeast will consume.

I wonder if you could post a recipe to fill in some of the blanks?

Dave

[Wazza McG]

loch,

This recipe was for 2 @ 13" Pizzas and it resembles a New Yorker.

Poolish - this is batter-like consistency.

Ascorbic Acid Powder              1.35 g        1/4 tspn  0.27%
Dry Diastatic Malt (Dark)             4.9 g          2   tspn   0.96%
Instant Dried Yeast - SAF Red     0.75 g       1/4 tspn  0.15%
Water                                 332.5 g   1 1/4 Cups 1 Tbsp 65.41%
Flour - High Gluten                248.3 g   1 3/4 Cups 2 Tbsp - This flour is 130 g/Cup (11% Protien)

Room Temperature for 6 hours then put in the fridge for 4 hours.

0 hr      Poolish Mixed
1/2 hr         Nothing
1hr          1/2 dozen small bubbles.
1 1/2 hr     1 dozen small bubbles.
2hr      30 small bubbles.
2 1/2 hr     30 large bubbles.
3 hr            Heaps more  large bubbles.
4 hr            Fully active
6 hr            Put in fridge
10hr           Out of fridge

Out of the Fridge for a 2 hour proof then mixed in a bread machine for 15 minutes.

Final Dough

Flour - High Gluten                   260. g               2 Cups
Salt - Sea (Fine)                    12. g           2 tspn 2.36%
Oil - "All Types"                    13.5 g            3 tspn   2.66%
Dry Dairy Whey Powder        11.5 g   3 1/2 tspn 2.26%
Vital Wheat Gluten            11.75 g             4 tspn 2.31%

Proofed for 2 more hours - no folding or punching down was done.

Because the final proofing rise was slow, I will be adding 1/4 tspn SAF yeast to the final dough to spike the newly added flour next time.

Regards,

Wazza McG

PS The volume measurements are Australian volume  measurements. 

[loch]

Wazza McG

Had a little problem logging on but was able to print your recipe.  Thanks! I think I'll either have to mail order whey powder or take a bit of a drive. Not available here even at the health food store. I have everything else, and as I understand it, whey powder is a dairy protein but dry milk can't be substituted. That may slow me down but I plan on having some fun with it. That's what it's all about.

Thanks for the note on measurements. Read a post from "gottabedapan" on slight variations with Imperial, metric, US, etc. I may have to wing that part. Looks like you've got a good scientific approach to this. The only thing I can wonder about with a read and no actual hands on work is what seems to be a pretty active Poolish which would be due to over yeasting or not retarding soon enough. Room temperature? On the other hand, it's been my experience that you can get a wonderful fermented flavor this way. As I said, I will have some fun with this.

Thanks again

Dave

[Pete-zza]

Wazza McG,

I thought you might find the following item of interest inasmuch as it discusses putting diastatic malt in with a sponge: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/27007.

BTW, I called a couple of places that make vital wheat gluten but couldn't get an answer to the question of whether the VWG can be added to a poolish. In fact, one gal I spoke with didn't even know what a poolish was . She told me that no one has ever asked her the question before.

Peter