Author Topic: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic  (Read 1660 times)

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Offline abeniste

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48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« on: January 13, 2014, 11:54:55 AM »
Hi. I am trying to make a 48 hours pizza dough but after a few attempts, I come always with the dough  too elastic and tear when I stretched. 

My formula is

Bread Flour 100% (not sure if I can post the brand name)
Water       64% (tried filtered and tap water)
Salt        2%
Yeast       0.4% (IDY)

My last attempted was: I mix flour and water for 4min and let to rest for 40min (autolysis). Then I incorporate the yeast and salt and mix on second speed for 6min to get an improved gluten development. Divide and let it rest for 30 min. Put in the refrigerator for 2 days at 4/5o Celsius. 1 h 30 min before making the pizza I removed from the refrigerator.

I think or some reason the dough is not mature enough, but the protease enzyme should break down the gluten making it more extensible even in the refrigerator. If I mix to have a full gluten development, the dough will be too elastic to stretch, righ? So, I am confused about it.

Many thanks,
Alberto.


Offline waltertore

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2014, 12:04:16 PM »
Hi. I am trying to make a 48 hours pizza dough but after a few attempts, I come always with the dough  too elastic and tear when I stretched. 

My formula is

Bread Flour 100% (not sure if I can post the brand name)
Water       64% (tried filtered and tap water)
Salt        2%
Yeast       0.4% (IDY)

My last attempted was: I mix flour and water for 4min and let to rest for 40min (autolysis). Then I incorporate the yeast and salt and mix on second speed for 6min to get an improved gluten development. Divide and let it rest for 30 min. Put in the refrigerator for 2 days at 4/5o Celsius. 1 h 30 min before making the pizza I removed from the refrigerator.

I think or some reason the dough is not mature enough, but the protease enzyme should break down the gluten making it more extensible even in the refrigerator. If I mix to have a full gluten development, the dough will be too elastic to stretch, righ? So, I am confused about it.

Many thanks,
Alberto.

Alberto:  I would keep you formula the same except lower your IDY yeast to about .17.  Mix it all for about 8 minutes and immediately ball/put in fridge.  Take it out at least 2 hour, up to 3 hours, before using.  That should make a pretty usable dough ball for a 2 day rise.  This should make a good NY stlye crust if that is what you are after.  I am not sure what 4/5 degrees C is but we keep ours for a couple days at about 38 degrees F.  For a longer ferment we cut back on the yeast.     Walter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2014, 12:34:11 PM »
Alberto,

How much dough have you been making and what is the dough ball weight? And how did you arrive at 40 minutes for the autolyse rest period? And did you rework the dough balls in any way when you took them out of the refrigerator?

Peter

Offline abeniste

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2014, 01:38:18 PM »
Thanks Walter. I will try 0.17% IDY.

Hey Peter. I made 2 balls 310 grams each. I just decided to use autolysis in order to avoid long mixing time to have a full gluten development. I have a Kitchen Aid mixer and it should take about 18min to mix the dough on second speed to have a good gluten development. So, I just pick up 40 min.

After removing the balls from the refrigerator, I just let them to rest inside the ball. I removed and start stretching only after 1h 30min.

Thanks.

Offline JD

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2014, 02:27:25 PM »
Are you measuring individual ingredients by weight or volume?
Josh

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2014, 03:18:54 PM »
Alberto,

Since you are in Montreal, Canada, where it its still cold (below freezing on some days), I personally don't see a problem with 0.40% IDY. In fact, if the only change is to use less yeast, I think you can end up with a dough that is not quite ready after 48 hours.

First, let me say that in my opinion 40 minutes is too long for an autolyse rest period. Professor Calvel, the "father" of autolyse, used to use about 13-30 minutes. But that was for around 75 pounds of dough. See, for example, Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg74624/topicseen.html#msg74624. Second, it perhaps useful to keep in mind that autolyse is a creature of the bread world. In that world, the way that dough is proofed to make bread is different than the way that dough is managed to make pizza. In my opinion, if autolyse is to be used, I would limit the duration of the autolyse to about 10-15 minutes. Evelyne Sloman, who wrote a book about pizza making, goes even shorter. For a home setting, she recommends an autolyse of five minutes.

Third, whenever you add IDY late in the dough making process, that will slow down the rate of fermentation. In fact, that is the way that a major pizza chain in the U.S. does it in order for the dough (cold fermented) to last from 5-8 days in its stores. I estimate the amount of yeast to be equivalent to about 0.16% IDY. To achieve that goal, the dough is kept cold, but not frozen, for its trip from the commissaries to the stores, where the dough is also kept cold until ready to use.

Fourth, with a 40 minute autolyse, you are getting good hydration of the dough, with the proteolytic enzymes also softening the dough (there are also no meaningful amounts of acids, if any, to adversely affect the dough). However, with an initial mix/knead of 4 minutes (pre-autolyse) and a later knead at speed 2 for 6 minutes (post-autolyse), the total of ten minutes may be too much for a dough batch weight of only 620 grams (a bit less than 22 ounces).

For a future effort, you might want to lower the duration of the autolyse to about 10 minutes and shorten the total mix/knead time by a few minutes (or you can try using speed 1). For now, I would stick with the 0.40% IDY so that we can see if the yeast quantity was a factor in the results you got. 

Peter

Offline waltertore

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2014, 05:42:11 PM »
Peter:  That is good advice.  I am use to having dough sit out 3 hours or more often times and at that level of yeast and a 2 day rise it can blow out and with the autolyse process I can see how that dough is where it is at.  We use .17-.2 for our yeast levels on 2 day cold ferments with generally good results in the 2-3 hour window of sitting out before baking.  I figured he would most likely cut back on the yeast and keep the autolyse.  It seems there is a hardcore group that love that for pizza.  Autolyse is something we use with some of our artisan breads and I don't think it belongs in making pizza dough.  But I am NYC area raised and never saw it done in pizza.  I think his dough will definetly be better with a standard 8 minute mix and immidiate ball/cooler.  We shall see :)  Walter
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 06:46:21 PM by waltertore »

Offline abeniste

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2014, 07:09:56 PM »
Hi guys. Wow! Thank you very much for all this information. Peter you mention something interesting. Pizza is a  different product than bread. I thought once that final fermentation is more to have a relax/mature dough instead of having it double the size, right?

Based on all that information, I will keep the formula as is but 0.17% IDY and remove autolysis. I will let 2 hours to rest after removing the dough from the refrigerator. In Montreal is too, too cold but at home I have heating so it is around 23C/73F. Since I ate pizza Saturday and Sunday, I will do it next week otherwise my wife will complain :)

I will let you know.

BTW, I measured all ingredients by weight.

Looking some videos I saw dough very extensible without tearing.  Is it important to have a good hydration or a full gluten development? That’s the reason I use autolysis, to have a good hydration (hydrate the protein gliadin that makes the dough more extensible). Does it make sense?

Thanks.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2014, 08:13:21 PM »
Alberto,

To be sure, there are many similarities between bread dough and pizza dough, since both include flour, water, yeast and salt, but there are also differences. Not long ago, I tried to put this issue into perspective in Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27536.msg279957/topicseen.html#msg279957. To add to the above, a few years ago I was the subject of an interview where I was asked about the differences between pizza and bread, and I responded as follows:

I think the major difference is the form factor. A pizza is flat, and bread is not (unless you are talking about flatbreads or pita and the like). Steam is also frequently used in making breads, but not particularly helpful with pizza (although some have tried). Many principles of bread making, such as autolyse; turns, stretch and folds; multiple punch-downs; and using naturally or commercially leavened pre-ferments, can be used in pizza dough making, but these methods tend to be more time-consuming and require more attention than methods used to make the straight doughs that most pizza operators specialize in. The fermentation protocols for bread making will also often be different than for pizza dough.

As for the extent of the rise of a dough, I do not think that there are any fixed rules. A doubling in volume is fine and a reasonable target, and one that can be fairly easily perceived by the naked eye, but I have made doughs that have tripled or almost quadrupled in volume and they turned out fine. I have also made doughs that rose less than 50% and they also turned out fine. But for each type of dough, there is usually a "right" degree of fermentation that produces the optimum results.

With respect to your question about gluten development, I refer you to Reply 440 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28694.html#msg28694. Certainly a high hydration value will yield a more extensible dough, but increased extensibility can also be achieved by using oil or other wet ingredients. And also by using autolysis.

Peter

Offline abeniste

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2014, 09:05:50 AM »
Hi guys. Finally I tried the formula: 0.17% IDY and no autolysis (3min speed1/stir and 7min sped2). I made 2 balls 330 grams each and put in the refrigerator without resting at room temperature.

Then 48 hours later I remove it from the refrigerator and let it rest for 3 hours. The end result was a dough a little weak (too extensible) but fine. Now I am confused.  See my comments/doubts below:

1) Why the dough now is no more too elastic? The elasticity is related to the amount of yeast/alcohol in the dough?
2) The elasticity is related to the temperature? Too cold the dough remains elastic?
3) Since the dough rest for 48 hours, the protease broke down the gluten. That’s the reason that the dough is a little weak. I think I can mix a little more to make the gluten stronger, then after 48 hours, I can have a balance dough.

Thanks.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2014, 10:15:25 AM »
Alberto,

I believe that the results you achieved were because of the high hydration value for the type of flour you used. Perhaps I should have asked you earlier what brand of bread flour you are using but here in the U.S., most bread flours have absorption values of around 62% and, with proper preparation and handling of the dough, such as an extended knead or use of stretch and folds, it is possible to get the dough to function with a hydration of a few percent more. In your case, you might use a longer knead with your Canadian flour although your better option might be to lower the hydration value.

In general, the main factors that govern the extensibility of dough are the nominal hydration value used, whether oil or other liquids (like honey) are also used in the dough, the kneading method and duration of knead, the temperature of fermentation, the duration and temperature of the dough during tempering before using to make skins, and the thicknesses of those skins. Yeast is not a meaningful factor although it will accelerate the fermentation process. Further as to the yeast, a while back I conducted an experiment where I used no yeast in the dough whatsoever yet got very good extensibility. See, for example, Reply 850 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg283298.html#msg283298. Shortly thereafter, I repeated the experiment but using 0.10% IDY, again with good results (see Reply 866 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg283461.html#msg283461. So, yeast per se does not play much of a role in the extensbility of a dough.

Peter

Offline abeniste

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2014, 10:55:20 AM »
The flour brand is Robin Hood. I will try next week 60% hydration and keep the same IDY.

Once I have asked myself why we need yeast to make pizza if we flat it. Maybe because of the alcohol. In my case, 0.17% IDY, the dough did not rise that much.

Alberto.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2014, 11:31:49 AM »
Alberto,

According to the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13365.msg132309.html#msg132309 , the Robin Hood bread flour has a protein content of 13%. That is somewhat higher than most U.S. bread flours but you should have no problem using 60% hydration. If that turns out to be too high also, you can lower it by another percent or so.

There are pizza doughs that contain no yeast but they are usually for cracker style crusts.

Alcohol is a byproduct of all dough fermentation processes. I do not see it as a villain.

Peter

Offline abeniste

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2014, 09:32:55 PM »
Hi  Peter. I made another batch. This time with 60% water. It was better, less soggy. One fermented for 2 days and I let it rest for 3 hours. Good extensibility. The other one I kept for one more day but I let it rest for 1 h 30min. Too elastic. So, the temperature has some influence in the gluten structure making them more elastic.

Another think I would like to ask. Some videos show a very smoth dough like baby skin. I don’ tknow why my dough is too “wrinkled”  (I don’t know if it is a correct term). Do you have any clue?

Trial and error! There is no short cut!

Thanks again.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 48 hours pizza dough to elastic
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 04:59:22 PM »
Another think I would like to ask. Some videos show a very smooth dough like baby skin. I don't t know why my dough is too “wrinkled”  (I don’t know if it is a correct term). Do you have any clue?
Alberto,

If the doughs shown in the videos you mentioned were made by commercial mixers, then I would say that that is the reason why the doughs were smooth like baby skin. Commercial mixers make a more robust and smooth dough than most home stand mixers.

Peter