Author Topic: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!  (Read 1114 times)

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Offline Omahachicagostuffed

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HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« on: January 13, 2014, 12:37:35 PM »
I've been making my dough and every time I go to bake the pizza's I'm getting the dreaded gum line.  For years we had a bakery make our dough and we would go get the dough and bulk ferment, scale and ball at the restaurant.  I am now making the dough in house and can't get it to cook right.  The biggest issue is the gum line.  It's massive.  I've followed the recipe to a T and have temped and timed everything.  I believe the issue is having the dough over ferment.  The problem is how to I tell when my dough is ready!

I am making Chicago Stuffed pizza.  With the bakery making dough we would get it and place it in a 32gal NSF trash can.  It would be left to bulk ferment at room temp.  The dough would rise and then we punch it down and after it rose again we would punch it and make dough balls and then off to walk-in to cool down and use the next day.

I am now doing this in house and following the same procedure but the final product is getting the THICK gum line.  The pizza cooks at 475 for 20 min.  I've gone down to 450 and 425 with the same gum line forming.  My sauce is thick and for the stuffed sauce it's on top of the dough so that should not be the issue.  My yeast level is at 1.5% so I think that insufficient yeast is not the culprit.  I don't pre sauce and make all pizza to order so each skin is rolled fresh.  I let the dough come to room temp before using and then only for 3 hours after that.

I'm thinking that I'm over fermenting the dough.  Could anyone tell me how to tell how long I should let the dough ferment?

Any and all help or thoughts or knowledge please!

OmahaStuffed


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2014, 03:41:10 PM »
that yeast level is crazy high for an overnight room temp bulk proof.  Try .15?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 03:43:02 PM by widespreadpizza »

Offline Omahachicagostuffed

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2014, 03:44:39 PM »
Mark,
Yes there is cheese under the sauce.  We sheet the dough and put in pan then cheese and ingredients then top dough and then sauce.  Just like Giordano's in Chicago.

Offline Omahachicagostuffed

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2014, 03:45:26 PM »
Not sure why I put Mark?  Sorry ::)

Online tinroofrusted

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2014, 03:48:48 PM »
Hi Omaha, and welcome to the forum. 

I can see you've read up on the causes of the "dreaded gumline" because you have already preemptively stated that you are doing most of the things you can to prevent gumline. If despite all of these precautions you are still getting excessive gumline I would think it is because your gluten structure in your dough is not sufficient.  If you think about it, the gumline is just a part of the dough that doesn't rise sufficiently. It's a part of the dough that is not properly leavened to combat the moisture from the sauce layer so it just sits there flat and doughy instead of puffing up into delicious pizza crust.  So maybe you should review your mixing technique to make sure you are getting sufficient gluten development in your dough.  With better gluten development you your dough should be able to stand up better to the sauce and puff up when the heat hits the dough. 



When do you add your salt to your dough? If you add it at the outset with the flour and water, maybe you can try holding the salt out until the dough has mixed for a while.  That will help your gluten to develop more.  Also, do you autolyse (i.e., hydrate the flour and and let it sit for 20 minutes before mixing the dough)?  If not, that can really help with gluten development. 

I assume you are using the same basic ingredients as the bakery that used to make the dough, i.e., same flour, same yeast, same water, correct? If not, then your problem may be in the ingredients. 

The other thing I thought of was whether it might be possible to go back to the bakery which used to make your dough and ask them for help. They are perhaps not too happy with you for cutting them out of the profits of selling you dough but if you can, maybe you can go over your procedures with then to see what you might be doing differently. Also, consider how the trip from the bakery to your shop might have affected things and what you could do to emulate that trip in your process. 

I should stress that I am a total amateur and have never owned a pizza shop (though I did work at one when I was in high school). My comments are just based on common sense and my years of making pizza dough at home.  Hopefully Tom L. will weigh in and give you more professional advice. 

Regards,

TinRoof

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2014, 03:53:36 PM »
The bakery may also have been using some dough conditioners that help the dough to stand up to the sauce.  You could try adding a small amount of lecithin to your dough or some ascorbic acid. There are also commercial dough conditioners available which you probably already know about. 

Offline Omahachicagostuffed

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2014, 04:01:57 PM »
Tinroof,
Thanks for the suggestions.  At present I have been only mixing for 5-8 min.  I have also been adding the salt in to the water along with my sugar.  Then add flour butter and compressed yeast.  I will try mixing longer.  My original recipe had a 20 min mix time but the bakery had changed a few things over the years and had been using 140 degree water and mixing till the dough looked right.  Not a lot of consistency.  I don't know much about the mixing process and what everything does especially since the bakery had been doing this for me.

OmahaStuffed

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2014, 04:20:18 PM »
The water seems pretty hot to me. I would think water at about 90 degrees would be better for an overnight fermentation.  You might be killing off some yeast with water that hot.   Also, I guess butter or oil would be an important component in a Chicago style pizza but could that be contributing to excessive gumline?  Perhaps you can make a small downward adjustment in the butter/oil quantity and see if that makes any difference.  What kind of flour are you using?  You might try increasing the protein content of the flour (substitute a small percentage of higher protein flour for your current flour).

Offline Omahachicagostuffed

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2014, 05:17:32 PM »
Yes I think the water at 140 is way to hot too.  I am using 90 now which is what the original recipe called for.  I have a 12.6 flour that I am using that matches what the bakery was using.  Do you know if using the 12.6 flour and mixing it too long would cause any issues?

Offline bigMoose

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 06:45:08 PM »
You said above that you are using "compressed yeast" is that fresh cake yeast?  Is that what was in the bakery recipe?


Offline Omahachicagostuffed

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2014, 07:19:04 PM »
Yes fresh cake yeast is what I am using.

Offline pythonic

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2014, 09:59:15 AM »
Are you getting the gum line on both layers of the crust?  I think the top layer of a stuffed pizza should be gummy as it should just blend right in with the cheese.

Nate
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Offline Omahachicagostuffed

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2014, 01:01:40 PM »
Yeah, I get it on the top dough so that is right.  I am just getting way to much on the bottom dough.  Over half is not cooked.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 01:57:03 PM »
Omaha,

I just saw this thread for the first time, so I'm kinda trying to synthesize what you've said here with what you said to me privately. (That was you, right?)

Based on what I've read from you, both here and privately, here are a couple things that stick out to me:

1. That seems like a ton of yeast for a long, room-temperature bulk ferment. It being a stiff dough might make it a little more doable than if it was a softer dough, but it still seems like a ton of yeast. Especially considering some of what you shared privately.

2. Bake time may be too short, and temperature may be a little too high. I bake my stuffed pizzas at 465 for 35 minutes, and I've gone as long as 40 minutes. I wouldn't even think of baking for less than 30 minutes, and I wouldn't expect the best results if I baked for 30 minutes. Also, I doubt that I would consider baking at a temperature above 465. If you've already been baking for years at 475 for 20 minutes, then I guess you found a way to make it work. But if I didn't know you've been doing it that way for a long time already, I'd probably expect to see the problems you are having.

Offline pythonic

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2014, 04:14:13 PM »
Yeah, I get it on the top dough so that is right.  I am just getting way to much on the bottom dough.  Over half is not cooked.

I agree with Ryan.  Increase the bake time.  May need to turn down temp a little too.
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2014, 06:59:11 PM »
I want to add that when I baked a stuffed pizza in member waltertore's Blodgett oven (at 450) a few weeks ago, I pulled it after 30 minutes and the crust was pushing overdone, although the cheese probably wanted another 5 minutes in the oven. If I was to bake another one of these pizzas in the same oven, I'd want the baking temperature to be under 450. I'd probably try 440 and see how that worked before going any lower.

Offline pythonic

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Re: HUGE GUM LINE- Help Dough Doctor!
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2014, 11:06:33 PM »
I'd go 425 like Malnatis.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.