Author Topic: Teddy's New York Style - Questions  (Read 3537 times)

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Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« on: January 16, 2014, 07:41:20 PM »
I am making a New York style pizza tomorrow:

65% KAAP; 35% Caputo 00
64% Hydratiion
3.0% Salt
1.0% Yeast
2 TSP Sugar

3 day cold ferment I plan on taking out of fridge 3 hours before the bake.

I made just under 1600 grams of dough for 4 16" pies that I plan on baking on my new 1/2" Baking Steel.

Pie 1 - Homage to Motorino's - Brussel sprouts leaves, pancetta, sliced garlic, chunks of Galbani Mozz; finished with grated parmigiano reggiano and EVOO
Pie 2 - Masso Hot sopresetta, red onion, fresh basil, 7/11, my own blend of polly o mozz (90%) and polly o provolone (10%)
Pie 3 - margherita pepperoni, 7/11, polly o mozz and boars head provolone
Pie 4 - half hot sopresetta half baby bella mushrooms, 7/11,  polly o blend; finish with whole Colavita Hot Peppers (never tried them) and arugula,

Questions:

1. Trying 7/11 for the first time after having great success with 6in1 on my Chicago pies. Has anyone measured how much sauce the use on a 16: NY Style pizza?
2. I plan on baking on the steel in the middle rack at 550 with the convection roast feature (broils) - anyone tried this?
3. With the broiler method, should I tuck the cheese slightly under the sauce?


Thanks for your advice/comments. I will post pics tomorrow!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 07:55:54 PM by Teddy Ballgame »


Offline Seven

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2014, 08:11:42 PM »
I never measured my sauce until last weekend when I used around 7 ounces by volume. That seemed to work well but my pies came out smaller than 16". Regarding the convection roast feature, I've been wondering the same.  I reheated 4 slices on convection roast last night and was disappointed with the lack of bottom heat. Using a steel plate (or in my case aluminum), I think you would need the bottom element to replenish the plate for multiple pizzas. I read online that some ovens utilize top and bottom elements on convection roast but it doesn't appear that mine does.

Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 08:43:20 PM »
I never measured my sauce until last weekend when I used around 7 ounces by volume. That seemed to work well but my pies came out smaller than 16". Regarding the convection roast feature, I've been wondering the same.  I reheated 4 slices on convection roast last night and was disappointed with the lack of bottom heat. Using a steel plate (or in my case aluminum), I think you would need the bottom element to replenish the plate for multiple pizzas. I read online that some ovens utilize top and bottom elements on convection roast but it doesn't appear that mine does.

Found this online: looks like it should work...

Convection bake = fan plus lower element (on/off to maintain temp)
Convection broil = fan plus upper element (stays on like a broiling phase)
Convection roast = fan plus both elements (on/off to maintain temp

I will obviously have to crank the oven up, likely on high broil, between pies to get the steel hot again.

Offline pdog

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 09:45:00 PM »
I am making a New York style pizza tomorrow:

65% KAAP; 35% Caputo 00
64% Hydratiion
3.0% Salt
1.0% Yeast
2 TSP Sugar

3 day cold ferment I plan on taking out of fridge 3 hours before the bake.

I made just under 1600 grams of dough for 4 16" pies that I plan on baking on my new 1/2" Baking Steel.

Pie 1 - Homage to Motorino's - Brussel sprouts leaves, pancetta, sliced garlic, chunks of Galbani Mozz; finished with grated parmigiano reggiano and EVOO
Pie 2 - Masso Hot sopresetta, red onion, fresh basil, 7/11, my own blend of polly o mozz (90%) and polly o provolone (10%)
Pie 3 - margherita pepperoni, 7/11, polly o mozz and boars head provolone
Pie 4 - half hot sopresetta half baby bella mushrooms, 7/11,  polly o blend; finish with whole Colavita Hot Peppers (never tried them) and arugula,

Questions:

1. Trying 7/11 for the first time after having great success with 6in1 on my Chicago pies. Has anyone measured how much sauce the use on a 16: NY Style pizza?
2. I plan on baking on the steel in the middle rack at 550 with the convection roast feature (broils) - anyone tried this?
3. With the broiler method, should I tuck the cheese slightly under the sauce?


Thanks for your advice/comments. I will post pics tomorrow!

I like 7/11's.  I use them frequently on NY pies.  My biggest suggestion would be to change the flour. The protein seems low for NY pizza, but that would be a good blend for a neo/NY blend. 

KABF would be a better choice for NY pizza, and this would be on the low end.  If you have access to full strength or All trumps this would be a better way to go.

Good luck in your experimenting. 

Offline Seven

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2014, 08:42:46 AM »
Found this online: looks like it should work...

Convection bake = fan plus lower element (on/off to maintain temp)
Convection broil = fan plus upper element (stays on like a broiling phase)
Convection roast = fan plus both elements (on/off to maintain temp

I will obviously have to crank the oven up, likely on high broil, between pies to get the steel hot again.

It's worth a shot! Please report back after you try since I've been wanting to try the same. One thing I found during my slice reheat was that the oven preheated faster than normal, presumably since the upper element is closer to the thermo than the lower. Also, the broiler will certainly increase the plate's surface but may not fully saturate the whole 1/2 inch...you need that heat sink to effectively bake the pie.

Regarding your previous cheese question, if you're using a low moisture, whole milk mozzarella, it should be able to withstand the heat. During my 4 minute bakes, I use hi broil for the final 2 minutes and the cheese boils nicely with minimal browning.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2014, 09:55:35 PM »
If you're interested, Teddy, I have about 10 lbs of All Trumps that I've been wanting to deplete, to justify buying 50 lbs of something with a little less protein.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline waltertore

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2014, 07:50:09 AM »
If you're interested, Teddy, I have about 10 lbs of All Trumps that I've been wanting to deplete, to justify buying 50 lbs of something with a little less protein.

Then I can give Ryan some FS flour :)

Teddy:  If you are out Newark way come by our bakery/pizzeria.  I would be happy to give some pointers on ingredients and method for a NY style pie.  I was raised in the NJ/NYC pizza/bakery world and we make my version of a NYC thin crust and a cast iron skillet deep dish pie on request. We guarantee our pies to be as good as anything you can find in Ohio. (you can click below to see a slide show on our operation). we are open during school hours.  No weekends or evenings but will open for pizza makers in the making on the weekends.  Walter

 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 08:04:16 AM by waltertore »
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Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2014, 09:08:12 AM »
The 1/2" Baking Steel really made all the difference in the world. By far the best NY Style Pizzas I ever made. I used the convection roast feature of my GE Profile with the steel on the middle rack. Too much wine = not great pictures, sorry  :chef:

« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 09:10:53 AM by Teddy Ballgame »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2014, 09:10:51 AM »
Then I can give Ryan some FS flour :)

Exactly!

That reminds me. Before the gathering at your classroom last month, I was thinking we (and others) might do a little ingredient trading, but I think we were all so beat and/or overwhelmed by the time it was over, everyone must have forgot. I brought several pounds of Ezzo GiAntonio pepperoni to share with folks, but I ended up taking all of it back home with me (except for what I used). I really wish I would have thought to offer bigMoose some pepperoni, especially considering how far he lives from Columbus.

Heck, one of your guests (the culinary guy, I think) was interested in acquiring some of the Cafagna's sausage I brought (and didn't use), but I totally forgot all about it until it was too late. I did give a couple different kinds of dough to one of your guests, though. Hope he had a chance to use some of it.

That was such a cool day, Walter. Thanks for setting it up, and for attracting a bunch of guests with almost no notice.

I don't know if you are already aware of this, but I have moved to Grove City. That means I'm 10 or 15 minutes closer to Newark than I was. So I might be more inclined to head that way occasionally now. Whenever you head into RD/Columbus, let me know (if you feel like it), and I'll probably meet you over there so we can chat while you shop.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2014, 09:13:48 AM »
Teddy:  If you are out Newark way come by our bakery/pizzeria.  I would be happy to give some pointers on ingredients and method for a NY style pie.

Teddy, just having the chance to use Walter's oven is worth the trip to Newark.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 09:23:44 AM »
Couple more pics:

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2014, 09:37:45 AM »
Also, Teddy, based on your work, I'm thinking you were making pizza for quite a while before you joined the boards. Am I right? This one looks very good, but I thought your Malnati's clone looked freaking awesome. I wasn't lying when I said I think it looks better than mine. (For those of you who aren't already aware, I'm only comparing his deep dish to mine because he said he based his deep dish mostly on my work.)

I do notice, though, that it seems most NY style pizzas baked on steel have a lot of very dark spots on the bottom. Not quite burned-looking spots, but something in that direction. Having just switched to steel, do you think these spots are a result of using steel, rather than stone?

Also, if you got your 7/11 at Carfagna's, they only had that in stock because I asked them last summer to order some. I now buy it by the case, from a distributor, so if you ever buy the last can at Carfagna's, you may want to ask the stocker guy to order more. Or you can probably get some from me, as I will probably buy another case as soon as I finish the case I have. Or maybe you have a different source already. If so, cool. (Oh, wait. I just remembered that you mentioned RD in another post, in a way that sounded like you have a membership. If so, disregard what I just said.)
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2014, 10:20:50 AM »
Also, Teddy, based on your work, I'm thinking you were making pizza for quite a while before you joined the boards. Am I right? This one looks very good, but I thought your Malnati's clone looked freaking awesome. I wasn't lying when I said I think it looks better than mine. (For those of you who aren't already aware, I'm only comparing his deep dish to mine because he said he based his deep dish mostly on my work.)

I do notice, though, that it seems most NY style pizzas baked on steel have a lot of very dark spots on the bottom. Not quite burned-looking spots, but something in that direction. Having just switched to steel, do you think these spots are a result of using steel, rather than stone?

Also, if you got your 7/11 at Carfagna's, they only had that in stock because I asked them last summer to order some. I now buy it by the case, from a distributor, so if you ever buy the last can at Carfagna's, you may want to ask the stocker guy to order more. Or you can probably get some from me, as I will probably buy another case as soon as I finish the case I have. Or maybe you have a different source already. If so, cool. (Oh, wait. I just remembered that you mentioned RD in another post, in a way that sounded like you have a membership. If so, disregard what I just said.)

Ryan,

I have been making pizzas at home seriously for the past few years. The Baking Steel really delivered what I was looking for in terms of char; of course, you can always dial back the temperature or play around with the time if you prefer a little less. From my memories of NY Style pizza, Brothers Pizza in NJ 25 years ago, this was as close as I have got. I really think the lack of oil in the dough and the steel produced the right texture and lift I have previously been searching for. The Polly-O melted to perfection and maintained the melt factor.

Once patio weather returns to Ohio, I will try the steel in my grill or my friend's BGE for Neopolitan Pies; getting temps to 850+ should be no problem. For now though, this really transformed my home oven.

While the 7//11 was great, I think the 6in1 in the 28oz cans in more convenient in terms of size for my needs. I made 3 16" pies with one can....

Thanks Walter, perhaps a trip to Newark is in order in the Spring. Let's stay in touch.

Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2014, 10:36:32 AM »
Best of the night, hot sopresetta, red onions, fresh basil:

Offline Seven

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2014, 11:46:26 AM »
Looks great Teddy! How long did the steel take to preheat? Did you take steel temp? Did you like using the convection roast setting? Did both elements stay on for the entire bake? Sorry for all the questions but I have 2 dough balls for tomorrow and I'm debating whether to use convection roast or convection bake...

Out of curiosity, do you know your GE profile model #?


Offline waltertore

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2014, 12:23:14 PM »
Ryan:  Yes it was a fun time.  I will let you know next time I hit RD.  I went by a bit back on a last minute urge and didn't have your number with me.  I filled the van with FS, 711, and the whole wheat flour we use for dog biscuits so I am not sure when I will be heading out there again. I was worried the tires would blow out on the way home :-D  Walter

Teddy:  I look forward to meeting you.   
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 01:40:14 PM by waltertore »
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Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2014, 08:05:25 AM »
Looks great Teddy! How long did the steel take to preheat? Did you take steel temp? Did you like using the convection roast setting? Did both elements stay on for the entire bake? Sorry for all the questions but I have 2 dough balls for tomorrow and I'm debating whether to use convection roast or convection bake...

Out of curiosity, do you know your GE profile model #?

I have a Dual Fuel GE Profile Oven - Gas Stove and Electric Oven; not sure the exact model # but it's about 8 years old (http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=J2B918SEKSS).

I preheated at 550 for an hour, but I think it only needs 30 minutes. I kept it at 550 the whole time but did not take the steel temp. I used the convection bake feature between bakes and for the preheat and the convection roast for the actual bake. Depending on your personal char preference, it only takes about 6 to 7 minutes at 550, YMMV. I would be curious to see how the convection bake works versus the convection roast. Perhaps you can do one each and let us know ;).

 


Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2014, 12:40:29 PM »
This is going in the fridge for a 5 day ferment:

Flour (100%):    225.59 g  |  7.96 oz | 0.5 lbs
Water (66%):    148.89 g  |  5.25 oz | 0.33 lbs
IDY (.6%):    1.35 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (2.5%):    5.64 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Oil (4%):    9.02 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.01 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    4.51 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.13 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
Total (175.1%):   395 g | 13.93 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = N/A

I decided to go with a little oil as compared to my last version and I upped the 00 flour to 50/50 with KAAP to see if I can get a slightly softer crust. I will post pics later next week for round 2 with my Baking Steel.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2014, 01:22:08 PM »
Teddy Ballgame,

A combination of 66% hydration and 4% oil can have the effect of making a quite wet dough, especially with soft flours like the KAAP (with a rated absorption of around 60%) and the 00 flour (with a rated absorption of around 55-57%). So I will be interested to see if you will have to do a series of stretch and folds to make the dough more manageable before dividing and refrigerating.

With 0.60% IDY, I will also be interested in seeing whether the dough holds out for five days of cold fermentation without requiring punch downs or overfermenting.

Peter

Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2014, 01:29:08 PM »
Peter,

I do worry about over-fermenting and will be keeping a close eye on it; any recommendations on what exactly I should be looking for or do next time?

In regards to work-ability, I do intend on taking the dough out the day of and do a couple of stretch and folds, forming back in a ball and let rest for a few hours at room temp. The dough was a dream to work with with my last variation without oil.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2014, 02:23:39 PM »
Teddy Ballgame,

Did you find it necessary to do stretch and folds before dividing and refrigerating?

Next time, you could reduce the amount of IDY, or use cold water to get the finished dough balls down to a finished dough temperature below 70 degrees F, or some combination of both. Keeping the dough balls in the coldest section of the refrigerator will also help. You might also leave the dough storage container uncovered in the refrigerator for about an hour before putting the lid back on. If the finished dough temperature is too high owning out of the mixer bowl (or after hand working), you can cool off the dough balls even faster by putting them into the freezer for about a half hour before placing into the refrigerator compartment.

There is no harm if the dough balls double or even triple in volume after five days of cold fermentation but you don't want them to overferment.

To give you an idea as to yeast quantity for a five-day dough (with an outside window of almost 8 days), when I came up with my clone of the Papa John's clone dough, which is a roughly 5-8 day dough, I used about 0.16% IDY. PJ is careful to keep their dough cold at all times, from its commissaries to its stores, but without reaching the freezing stage, as some competitors have alleged.

Peter

Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2014, 02:50:43 PM »
I typically do not need to stretch and fold before I put it in the fridge, but after you mentioned it, I took the dough back out and did so. It is smoother now and I am satisfied with letting it ride. Until I shape it, I guess I really won't know.

My typical technique has been to use my food processor of late with the metal blade. I add the liquids and about half the flour. Process on pulse for 30 seconds and rest for 20 minutes. Then I pulse in the rest of the flour until it comes together, wait another few minutes and then start pulsing again for 20 seconds.

I am just toying around with hydration and using oil as my last attempt was the best I have ever made (but also the first on the 1/2 inch steel).

~Teddy

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2014, 03:13:18 PM »
Teddy,

I was thinking that you were using a basic stand mixer or possibly hand kneading. But now that you have reported that you have been using a food processor, that goes a long way toward explaining your results. A food processor as you used it, and especially with the long rest period you used, will produce a dough with the structure and the degree of hydration that you want to achieve. However, the finished dough temperature is likely to approach room temperature after a 20-minute rest period. Whether that is a positive or negative with 0.60% IDY will depend on your room temperature where the dough is made. But pulsing imparts less heat to the dough.

Peter

Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2014, 08:49:35 PM »
Tonight's effort. Dough was more difficult to work with and did not have the chew I was looking for. Still a very good pie.

Hot sopresetta and shaved onions:

« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 10:34:36 PM by Teddy Ballgame »

Offline DIY Whiz

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Re: Teddy's New York Style - Questions
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2014, 08:08:07 PM »
Then I can give Ryan some FS flour :)

Teddy:  If you are out Newark way come by our bakery/pizzeria.  I would be happy to give some pointers on ingredients and method for a NY style pie.  I was raised in the NJ/NYC pizza/bakery world and we make my version of a NYC thin crust and a cast iron skillet deep dish pie on request. We guarantee our pies to be as good as anything you can find in Ohio. (you can click below to see a slide show on our operation). we are open during school hours.  No weekends or evenings but will open for pizza makers in the making on the weekends.  Walter

 

Hi Walter - there some Jersey folks here, any thought to open your doors on a weekend to for some instruction for us beginner pizza makers?

pete
Pete


 

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