Author Topic: dough becomes flat after oven spring  (Read 1239 times)

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Offline mxood

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dough becomes flat after oven spring
« on: January 16, 2014, 09:40:00 PM »
Alright so i have been working in a pizzeria for about a year and another employee usually makes the dough and i do it when he cant but for a couple of months now we have been having a problem with the pizza crust as it would rise a little in the oven and then when it comes out it becomes flat and the texture is not there. the outside rim does have texture but not under the toppings. we never changed the ingredients or the amount of them.
here is our dough recipe.

My basic percentages from what i can remember are.
100 flour
55.55 water
2.22 yeast
2.22 salt
6.66 sugar
3.34 oil
4.43 wholewheat flour

we have never changed the recipe and we have tried with more water, with/without the sauce and have tried, more and less kneading but to no avail.
has anyone had this problem before?  could it be my oven, i have a middleby marshal forced air conveyor oven. i also haven't done any  cleaning to the oven what so ever because our owner never told us it was necessary but none of us know what to do. any help would be appreciated. thank you.


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2014, 09:59:31 AM »
how long from when you make the dough until you use it?  yeast looks very high,  even for cake yeast.  what type are you using?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2014, 01:45:05 PM »
Also, what kind of flour, apart from the whole wheat flour, are you using and in what amount?

It would also help Tom, and others, if you tell us how you make and manage your dough up to the point where you use it to make pizzas.

Peter

Offline mxood

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2014, 07:12:53 PM »
thanks for the quick replies.
I wanna start off by saying the yeast levels we put according to when we need the dough. the one above is for the dough we ferment for about 14 hours and use allmost all of it for lunch because we are beside a school. usually we put a bit less.
the process for the dough preparation ( i want to mention this process worked for us for quite a while, we only had the pizzeria for about 1.5 years now)

we add salt, sugar, wholewheat flour (5% mix to a 95%) ( noname brand we changed to robinhood but no difference)
then add water and yeast (mixed in about 200 ml water)
After that we add oil only 1.4 litres (we save the last bit for the end so its easy to take out)
and the we add bakers pride five roses flour (95%)
about 17 mins on speed 2 but recently ive been doing 25mins.

we take the dough out and make dough balls in the next 20mins and straight to cooler to ferment (ive tried shocking the dough but no difference)

and we prepare straight from the cooler and slap it and straight to the oven.
i have tried putting out the dough to room temp but i dont remember it making a difference. any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 07:43:41 PM by mxood »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2014, 07:35:05 PM »
mxood,

What kind of yeast are you using, and how much regular flour (Robin Hood) are you using? And when is the dough made such that the dough is ready to use for lunch after 14 hours? That is, is the dough made at night and then cold fermented for 14 hours? Also, what kind of mixer are you using and what dough ball weights?

Peter

Offline mxood

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2014, 07:47:58 PM »
i am using cake compressed yeast.
i am not currently using robinhood we substituted noname wholewheat for robinhood  for expermental purposes. (We use 95% five roses flour and 5% additional Wholewheat flour approximately)
the percentages are according to adding both weights of the flour to make 100%.
but our main flour is Bakers Pride Five Roses Flour. and the dough mixer is Hobart
dough wieghts are as follows:

12" 1 LB
14" 1.5 LB
16" 2 LB
18" 2.75 LB
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 07:50:22 PM by mxood »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2014, 07:52:52 PM »
mxood,

I'm sorry. I meant to say Five Roses. Now that I have that straight, how much Five Roses flour are you using?

Peter

Offline mxood

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2014, 07:56:05 PM »
20KG

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2014, 08:00:09 PM »
mxood,

Thank you.

And is the dough made at night and cold fermented for 14 hours for next day use at lunch time?

Peter

Offline mxood

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2014, 08:59:58 PM »
yes at night between 7 - 10 pm and used in the morning at 11am but we also make dough for the evening in which we put less yeast and use it for 48 hrs not right away. for example we make dough at 7 pm today so it should a good to go after 24 hrs and we keep it for use 48hrs after that.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 10:15:06 AM »
mxood,

Offhand, I do not see anything that looks out of order with the dough formulation you are using. However, to get a better idea as to the crust thicknesses for the different pizza sizes, I calculated the thickness factors and got the following values:

12": 16/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.14147
14": 24/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.15591
16": 32/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.15916
18": 44/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.17291

I perhaps should have asked you what kind of pizza you are making, and what kind of carrier (e.g., screen or disk or pan) you are using, and what bake temperature and bake duration you are using, but the above values are much higher than I am accustomed to seeing here in the U.S. By the time you add sauce, cheese and toppings to your pizzas, they must really weigh a lot and take a long time to bake. I am not an oven expert but your oven may be a possible source of the problem you mentioned. To this, I would add that one of our Canadian members mentioned long ago that Canadian pizzas tend to be laden with toppings (see the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7945.msg68235.html#msg68235). So, maybe there is something you are doing in Canada that is common there but far less so in the U.S.

I also wondered whether 17-25 minutes of kneading at speed 2 of your Hobart planetary mixer might be too long and has produced an overkneaded dough that has adversely affected oven spring and the final crust texture. As you can see from Tom Lehmann's general dough preparation methodology as set forth in Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554, the total mix/knead time is about 10-12 minutes. I don't see anything in your dough formulation that suggests that a longer mix/knead time is needed but perhaps there is something that I do not see from what you have reported thus far. For example, your hydration value might seem a bit low since you are using whole wheat flour in addition to your regular flour, but the amount of whole wheat flour is quite small and, in addition, the wetting effect of the oil raises the "effective" hydration to about 59%, which does not seem out of line, even if the Robin Hood flour you are using is a bread flour. Also, you already said that you tried raising the hydration value.

Maybe others will see something that I do not see, but the two areas discussed above--the oven and knead time--are what I see at this point as possible causes of the results you have described.

Peter

Offline mxood

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2014, 02:06:36 AM »
Sorry Peter i couldnt reply sooner.  I had to do double shifts to fill in for someone else.  I think you may be right about the dough kneading and i am looking into the oven to see possible problems there also.  But from the video of tom lehman dough making.  His machine seemed alot faster than mine on speed two.  I also have 4 speed options i think he only had 3.
And to answer your question about the equipment i use to bake.
We only use pizza screens which is essentially a net under the pizza dough. But i also want to mention when i make the pizza with only 500 ml(more) of water difference from the one i notice a huge difference.  The dough is alot softer when balling and and feels like an adequate amount of moisture but thevpizza cooks alittle bit worse.  Anyway.  The texture is my main problem and i dont relly get the instructions of how really a finihed dough should feel like.  Only if i could learn that maybe it will solve my problem.  But please if you realize something i havent noticed please let me know.  I can try on a few dough batches until next week.  But i have already spent probably 10-20 whole batches which went straight to the trash. 

Offline mxood

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2014, 02:08:58 AM »
Bake temp..  523 time.  5:17. And the recipe i learnt from someone who learnt from someone  else who learnt from some shop i have no idea of in America.  So essentially its an American recipe of some sort but our dough is dense and when the dough was doing good we had compliments from almost every single customer.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2014, 10:44:37 AM »
mxood,

Your dough formulation reminds me of a Papa John's dough, with a lot of oil and sugar, but with a thicker crust. My instincts are to increase the amount of water and use less dough for a given pizza size. For example, you might use 20 ounces for a 14" pizza, which is what Papa John's uses. Even then, when I researched the PJ pizzas, I found that it typically took PJ about 6 1/2 minutes at about 470-490 degrees F to bake the pizzas, using pizza screens in a conveyor oven. See, for example, Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58204.html#msg58204. In your case, if you don't want to change the dough ball weights, you may have to find the right combination of bake temperature and time to achieve the desired results. And you will have to find the hydration value that helps make that possible.

If you would like to see my latest version of a PJ dough formulation, but modified for two days of cold fermentation instead of the 5-8 days that PJ uses, along with the PJ thickness factor (0.12992), see Reply 585 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667. In your case, with four pizza sizes, and thicker crusts as you go up in size, while not unheard of, poses its own set of challenges.

FYI, there are three Lehmann videos where Tom Lehmann, along with his associate Jeff Zeak, describe the basic procedures to make pizza dough. They are set forth below. Maybe you will see something there that will help you get a better feel for how the dough should look and handle at different stages.

So, to summarize, I believe that you have a workable dough formulation but I believe that you have to find the right combination of hydration value, the right mix/knead times, the optimal dough ball weights for the different pizza sizes, and the right combination of bake temperature and times.

Peter






Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2014, 11:10:18 AM »
mxood,

In my last post, I forgot to ask you how much of the Robin Hood whole wheat flour you are using, by weight? I know that you are using a 95/5 split of the total flour weight, and that you are using 20Kg of the Five Roses flour, but we might be able to fine tune your dough formulation if we know the actual weight of the Robin Hood whole wheat flour. Also, is the Five Roses flour a bread flour rather than an all-purpose flour? When I researched the two brands, I found only the retail level flours, at http://www.robinhood.ca/Products/Whole-Wheat-all-purpose and http://www.fiveroses.ca/. As best I can tell, Five Roses is an ADM brand: http://www.adm.com/en-US/products/food/Pages/baking.aspx. It looks like Horizon Milling or an affiliated entity now sources the Robin Hood flours: http://www.agcanada.com/daily/horizon-conagra-flour-mills-to-form-new-joint-venture/.

Peter

Offline mxood

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2014, 10:25:02 PM »
Ok i have done what you told me to do. I increased the water percentage by adding 500ml water more to it. I didnt add too much because i had tried before and even little water difference changes up the whole thing. and secondly i decreased the dough kneading to 15mins, this was when the dough becomes smooth. before this i dont think it is a good idea. its maybe because my machine is a little slower than Dr Tom Lehman's but i am scared to put on speed 2 as it might damage the machine.

And as for you second post. I know its around 1kg og wholewheat flour.

I hope that brings light to some of the questions.

Offline mxood

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2014, 10:29:59 PM »
the flour i use only says enriched flour and no indication of all purpose or not of any kind. ive seen this at many other pizza places. and also this is nothing to do with the current situtaion, but we buy fat block of mozzeralla cheese and sometimes it cooks more and sometimes less is it because of the moisture?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2014, 11:13:45 AM »
mxood,

Using the information you provided, and doing a few calculations, and assuming that I properly interpreted the information you provided, I came up with the following dough formulation based on using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (55.55%):
CY (2.22%):
Salt (2.22%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3.34%):
Sugar (6.66%):
Total (169.99%):
21000 g  |  740.74 oz | 46.3 lbs
11665.5 g  |  411.48 oz | 25.72 lbs
466.2 g | 16.44 oz | 1.03 lbs |
466.2 g | 16.44 oz | 1.03 lbs | 27.84 tbsp | 1.74 cups
701.4 g | 24.74 oz | 1.55 lbs | 51.48 tbsp | 3.22 cups
1398.6 g | 49.33 oz | 3.08 lbs | 116.94 tbsp | 7.31 cups
35697.9 g | 1259.19 oz | 78.7 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour Blend comprises 20Kg Bakers Pride Five Roses flour and 1Kg whole wheat flour
Note: The CY is prehydrated in about 200ml of the total formula water

One of the things that doesn't seem to square with the above formulation is your statement in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29707.msg297524.html#msg297524: we add oil only 1.4 litres (we save the last bit for the end so its easy to take out). However, the amount of oil in the above formulation based on the baker's percent you provided is equivalent to about 3/4 of a liter. Did I misunderstand something?

Peter

Offline mxood

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Re: dough becomes flat after oven spring
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2014, 01:57:31 AM »
Im so sorry i didnt double check but the oil i 1.5 litres i didnt notice it before.  And i wilk recheck all the percentages.  I bought a digital scale today cuz of it and i will update this the day after tomorrow when i make dough.  I want to make it accurate so maybe i could get a solution.  I honestly really appreciate you giving me all your time.  Thank you


 

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