Author Topic: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia  (Read 1419 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mbrulato

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1093
  • Location: NJ
  • I Love Pizza!
Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« on: January 17, 2014, 07:18:47 PM »
I've tried, unsuccessfully, a few times to make a NY style dough using the following formula and I'm getting very frustrated, but won't give up until I find a solution.

100% Flour
  63% Water
1.75% Salt
     3% Oil
     1% Sugar

I check my basement temperature and then I calculate the % of Ischia based upon TxCraig1's SD quantity prediction model.

Each time I've tried, the dough is so over fermented before I bring it to RT.  When I go to stretch the dough into a skin, it always tears.  I'm forced to re-ball and then I have to use a rolling pin to make the pizza :-\ It comes out horrible with no color on the crust and very thick.

The main difference between my NY dough and any other dough I make with Ischia is the sugar.  I bet this is the culprit.  I have had no problems lately with over fermented dough using the prediction model for my Ciabatta bread, Sicilian pizza dough or NP-ish pizza dough.

So I'm asking for suggestions on how to successfully make a NY dough without it overfermenting?  Should I knock back the Ischia a full percentage point and keep the sugar the same?  Or should I cut out the sugar completely?  See this ugly pizza picture  :'( Poor guy looks sick - no color whatsoever...

Mary Ann


Offline JD

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1370
  • Location: NE Mississippi, but NY born & raised
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2014, 08:25:17 PM »
Are you doing a 48hr dough? Your dough may be over-acidifying, not necessarily over-fermenting.  With IDY, the most flavor comes from multi-day ferments, but with Ischia 24hrs may be plenty. I trust you are preparing your starter correctly from what I've seen you do before.

As a side note, if your goal is NY style you will probably be left disappointed as I was when I attempted a NY style Ischia dough. The one time I added sugar, it did not taste good at all. I never was able to get good color either... from what I've learned on this forum the acidifying effect of Ischia is also a color inhibitor.

Keep experimenting though, you may be more successful than I was.
Josh

Offline mbrulato

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1093
  • Location: NJ
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2014, 08:57:15 PM »
Thanks for the moral support, Josh.  I will keep trying.  There are so many air bubbles that I just assumed that the dough was overfermented.  See here, it looks so bloated, even after I deflated it.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29237.msg297433.html#msg297433 I never thought about over-acidifying, but what do I know?  I'm just an accountant  ;D

I wonder if the bleached/bromated flour I'm using for NY dough has something to do with it?
Mary Ann

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2014, 09:15:46 PM »
Mary Ann,

I don't know if this will help you at all, but Peter gave me a formulation for an Ischia starter dough for a NY style pizza at Reply 111 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11578.msg107361.html#msg107361 and where I tried the Lehmann dough with the Ischia starter. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108007.html#msg108007

Those Ischia doughs for the Lehmann NY style were cold fermented.  I would try a controlled temperature ferment now, but those doughs were to see if I could make a naturally leavened dough for market.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline mbrulato

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1093
  • Location: NJ
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2014, 11:19:13 AM »
Thanks for the links, Norma.  I will read them next week when the kids are back in school and experiment some more.  I'm sure I will have more questions for you soon  ;D
Mary Ann

Offline mbrulato

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1093
  • Location: NJ
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2014, 11:21:35 AM »
I forgot to mention that when I went to reball after 24 hours, the dough didn't seem like it would be extensible at all. It was very tough and didn't look it wanted to be stretched...
Mary Ann

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 903
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2014, 10:21:46 PM »
Mary Ann
I'm not doing exactly what you are, but I'm constantly experimenting.  Here is my latest try on the sourdough
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29760.new.html#new
John

Offline mbrulato

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1093
  • Location: NJ
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2014, 11:23:18 AM »
Mary Ann,

I don't know if this will help you at all, but Peter gave me a formulation for an Ischia starter dough for a NY style pizza at Reply 111 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11578.msg107361.html#msg107361 and where I tried the Lehmann dough with the Ischia starter. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108007.html#msg108007

Those Ischia doughs for the Lehmann NY style were cold fermented.  I would try a controlled temperature ferment now, but those doughs were to see if I could make a naturally leavened dough for market.

Norma

Norma,

What exactly do mean by a controlled temperature?  I read through about the first 6 pages of your thread last night.  How long did you room temp ferment and how long did you cold ferment and at what temperature?  I'm not looking to do a comparison experiment right now as you did.  I'm just looking for a usable dough that is easy to open up and has more color than the above picture.  Maybe I'll take out the sugar but keep everything else in my formula the same and then brush the rim with some oil before the bake to see where that gets me.  I really think the sugar is the culprit here because I've never had a problem opening up a dough using Ischia with Craig's NP formula.
Mary Ann

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2014, 01:32:49 PM »
Norma,

What exactly do mean by a controlled temperature?  I read through about the first 6 pages of your thread last night.  How long did you room temp ferment and how long did you cold ferment and at what temperature?  I'm not looking to do a comparison experiment right now as you did.  I'm just looking for a usable dough that is easy to open up and has more color than the above picture.  Maybe I'll take out the sugar but keep everything else in my formula the same and then brush the rim with some oil before the bake to see where that gets me.  I really think the sugar is the culprit here because I've never had a problem opening up a dough using Ischia with Craig's NP formula.

Mary Ann,

What I meant by controlled temperature fermenting is what Craig and other members do with Neapolitan doughs.  First there is a bulk ferment at controlled temperatures, then the dough is scaled and balled and then it is controlled temperature fermented more.  Usually the total time fermented is around 48 hrs., but that can be changed by using more or less of the Ischia starter.  Craig uses a cooler with a bottle of ice to keep the temps around 64 degrees F for the bulk ferment and second ferment.  I also do that for Neapolitan doughs, but most of the time I use a styrofoam cooler with ice packs inside.  I keep a thermometer in there to watch the temperatures.

Maybe taking the sugar out would help.  What percentage of the Ischia starter are you using and how long are you fermenting at what temperatures? 

The thread Peter helped me with had no room temperature ferment because it was meant for market and temperatures there are too variable to try and do anything like that unless I was a very skilled pizza maker.

I don't know if the bleached and bromated flour have anything to do with your problem.

Norma


Always working and looking for new information!

Offline mbrulato

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1093
  • Location: NJ
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 02:11:20 PM »
Ok.  That's what I thought, Norma.  Thank you for the clarification on why you used the cold fermentation.  I guess I missed that part but now I understand  :) I have been doing my fermentation in my basement at approximately 65 degrees.  The % of Ischia I use depends on the exact temperature in the basement on any given day and the amount of time I want my dough to be ready.  I basically use Craig's table for pizza and bread.  The reason I think it is the sugar and not the bromated flour is because my sourdough boule from the other day was made with the bromated flour and it came out fine and there is no sugar in that recipe. 

Thank you again for your suggestions, Norma.  There's nothing like learning through experimentation.  I will post my results soon.  I have an Ischia to go feed now  ;D
Mary Ann


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 05:26:35 PM »
Ok.  That's what I thought, Norma.  Thank you for the clarification on why you used the cold fermentation.  I guess I missed that part but now I understand  :) I have been doing my fermentation in my basement at approximately 65 degrees.  The % of Ischia I use depends on the exact temperature in the basement on any given day and the amount of time I want my dough to be ready.  I basically use Craig's table for pizza and bread.  The reason I think it is the sugar and not the bromated flour is because my sourdough boule from the other day was made with the bromated flour and it came out fine and there is no sugar in that recipe. 

Thank you again for your suggestions, Norma.  There's nothing like learning through experimentation.  I will post my results soon.  I have an Ischia to go feed now  ;D

Mary Ann,

Looking forward to your future experiments.  I agree that there is not like learning through doing experiments.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline mbrulato

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1093
  • Location: NJ
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2014, 10:49:47 AM »
Norma,

Did you have any trouble opening the dough with the Lehmann formula?  What type of flour did you use - protein %, bleached, bromated?

I've just brought my dough balls upstairs and they look about the same as my previous attempts.  They don't look like they want to be stretched.  The dough is tough looking.  I don't believe that I have over worked the dough here because I have used the same workflow as my NY dough using IDY and have no issues opening that dough.  I will be making these for lunch today and I will post pictures, some may need to be included in the thread of shame  >:D

If this attempt is not good, then I will have to ask The Dough Doctor.
Mary Ann

Offline mbrulato

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1093
  • Location: NJ
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2014, 10:52:25 AM »
Are you doing a 48hr dough? Your dough may be over-acidifying, not necessarily over-fermenting.  With IDY, the most flavor comes from multi-day ferments, but with Ischia 24hrs may be plenty. I trust you are preparing your starter correctly from what I've seen you do before.

As a side note, if your goal is NY style you will probably be left disappointed as I was when I attempted a NY style Ischia dough. The one time I added sugar, it did not taste good at all. I never was able to get good color either... from what I've learned on this forum the acidifying effect of Ischia is also a color inhibitor.

Keep experimenting though, you may be more successful than I was.

Josh,

What type of flour have you used in your attempts? I'm beginning to think it may just be the bleached/bromated flour I'm using and need to try with AP flour...
Mary Ann

Offline JD

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1370
  • Location: NE Mississippi, but NY born & raised
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2014, 11:23:20 AM »
I've used a few different flours on NY style using Ischia, but I'm pretty sure I never tried a bromated flour using Ischia. I've used Gold Medal Better for Bread, KAAP, KABF and White Lilly bread flour.  I had the best luck with the KA flours because they are malted. GMBFB was terribly pale but the flavor and texture were good. I'm pretty sure the white lilly attempts were also pale even though it is malted.

I think I misunderstood you when reading your first post. You're saying the dough balls are very elastic? I read your post as if the dough was very weak, which is why I suggested it over-acidified. If your dough is too strong you may be right about the bromated flour. I'm not a fan of reballing anymore since using bromated flour (specifically all-trumps). I think a reball after 24 hours fermentation significantly strengthens an already strong dough, so that it cannot recover in time to relax. If you want to continue using the bromated flour, maybe you should nix the reball altogether? If you like reballing, I agree switching to an AP or just a regular BF would probably help.

Josh

Offline mbrulato

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1093
  • Location: NJ
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2014, 11:32:21 AM »
Thanks, Josh.  Yes, the dough is extremely tough and difficult to open.  By process of elimination, it is either the bromated flour or a combo of the flour and oil.  I say that because I've made Craig's NP dough using AP, Ischia, salt and water and it was very easy to open.  No risks of tearing.  I just tried stretching a little and it seems slightly better than my previous attempts.  But nowhere near what I'd call easy to open.  I have rescind my previous comment about the bread because even though I've used Ischia with the bleached and bromated flour, I'm not stretching that like I would a pizza dough.

For this dough, including the RT period, it has a total fermentation time of 19 hours.  17 hours between 60 and 61 degrees and 2 hours at 70 degrees.
Mary Ann

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2014, 12:03:56 PM »
Norma,

Did you have any trouble opening the dough with the Lehmann formula?  What type of flour did you use - protein %, bleached, bromated?

I've just brought my dough balls upstairs and they look about the same as my previous attempts.  They don't look like they want to be stretched.  The dough is tough looking.  I don't believe that I have over worked the dough here because I have used the same workflow as my NY dough using IDY and have no issues opening that dough.  I will be making these for lunch today and I will post pictures, some may need to be included in the thread of shame  >:D

If this attempt is not good, then I will have to ask The Dough Doctor.

Mary Ann,

When I tried Peter's formulation with the Ischia starter I was using KASL which is a very high protein flour, but KASL is not bleached or bromated. 

I don't recall if anyone has used the Ischia starter with a bromated flour for a NY style pizza.

When are you reballing in regards to the time you want to make the pizza?

Best of luck!  I hate it when dough balls don't want to stretch fairly easily into skins.  I had some of those dough balls before and could not figure out if I mixed too long or what I did wrong.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline JD

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1370
  • Location: NE Mississippi, but NY born & raised
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2014, 12:09:27 PM »
For this dough, including the RT period, it has a total fermentation time of 19 hours.  17 hours between 60 and 61 degrees and 2 hours at 70 degrees.

When do you reball? If it were me, I'd skip the reball completely or add it somewhere in the beginning of fermentation if you really feel the need to. I'm certainly no expert though.


Josh

Offline JD

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1370
  • Location: NE Mississippi, but NY born & raised
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2014, 12:51:44 PM »
Member bguilford did some NY experiments a while back and was very successful. Check out his thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21530.msg217284.html#msg217284

Josh

Offline mbrulato

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1093
  • Location: NJ
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2014, 01:03:41 PM »
Here is the formula I used today with Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (Bleached/Bromated/Enriched/Malted)

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    572.35 g  |  20.19 oz | 1.26 lbs
Water (63%):    360.58 g  |  12.72 oz | 0.79 lbs
Salt (1.75%):    10.02 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
Oil (2.98%):    17.06 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.79 tsp | 1.26 tbsp
Total (167.73%):   960 g | 33.86 oz | 2.12 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   480 g | 16.93 oz | 1.06 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:    57.23 g | 2.02 oz | 0.13 lbs
Water:    57.23 g | 2.02 oz | 0.13 lbs
Total:    114.47 g | 4.04 oz | 0.25 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    515.11 g | 18.17 oz | 1.14 lbs
Water:    303.34 g | 10.7 oz | 0.67 lbs
Salt:    10.02 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
Preferment:    114.47 g | 4.04 oz | 0.25 lbs
Oil:    17.06 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.79 tsp | 1.26 tbsp
Total:    960 g | 33.86 oz | 2.12 lbs  | TF = N/A

Dissolved salt into filtered water from refrigerator.  Then added Ischia and whisked until frothy.  Added oil next and then added the flour to the mixing bowl.  Mixed with KitchenAid on low speed for 2 minutes using the dough hook.  Rested for 5 minutes.  Mixed on medium low speed for another 2 minutes. Then hand kneaded for one more minute.  Weighed, balled and into round plastic container with lid.  Fermented in basement for 17 hours at 60-61 degrees.  Reballed dough at 5 hours into fermentation.  The dough felt "normal" at this time.  Reballed again this morning around 9am because the dough was doubled.  Probably mistake 1.  Brought the dough up from basement at 10am to rest at RT for 2 hours.  I took the balls out of their containers and put them onto floured parchment paper and covered them with plastic wrap.  When I touched the dough after about an hour, they seemed just as tough as my last 3 attempts.  Full of gas and not willing to be stretched.  So rather than trying desperately to stretch just before the bake, I began a slow opening process so as not to tear the dough.  Each dough ball ended up being about 490 grams (apparently no bowl residue).  Typically, I can stretch a dough ball this size to 17" or more, but a 17" pie is the limit in my oven.  I was only able to stretch these dough balls to about 14 inches.  I sauced and cheesed them and into the oven they went.  Each pie took about 5 1/2 to 6 minutes on my 1/2" steel plates that were preheated for an hour at 550 convection.  My typical NY bake times are 4 minutes using IDY.  I forgot to oil the rim before the bake.

The first pie had a bit more color than the second, probably because I didn't give the steel enough time to get back up to temp before I baked the second pie.  From a texture standpoint, it was great.  The cornicione was very puffy, light and tender with an ever so slight crispiness to it.  From a taste standpoint, I could not tell the difference between my NY crust using IDY versus using Ischia.  There was no sourdough flavor development.  From an aesthetic standpoint, the cornicione had little to no color.

There has got to be a way to get good sourdough flavor development, crust color and ease of dough opening from a NY dough using Ischia.  As I may have mentioned previously in this thread, I have had no problems opening my NY dough made with IDY using Best Bakers Flour or opening NP dough made with Ischia using Caputo Pizzeria or KAAP flour.  Not sure if the culprit here is oil or the bleached/bromated/enriched/malted flour.

Here are a few pictures where you may be able to see the toughness of this dough.
Mary Ann

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Need help with NY Style dough using Ischia
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2014, 01:35:50 PM »
Mary Ann,

After seeing how your dough did not behave in opening and hearing when you did the reball, I would tend to agree with Josh that it probably was the little time your dough balls had to relax after reballing it in how hard the dough ball was to open.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!