Author Topic: A five fold sourdough!!  (Read 3763 times)

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Offline fazzari

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A five fold sourdough!!
« on: January 19, 2014, 09:52:03 PM »
I'm having some pretty good results with my Ischia sourdough using the practice that follows.  I continue to be a huge fan of the stretch and fold in this method for three reasons:  1) there is no guesswork regarding how long my dough should be mixed 2)  my dough no longer needs any further manipulation as it ages, and 3)  the resulting dough is excellent.  I take my Ischia out of the fridge two days before using and feed it about 3 times to fully activate before using.  My dough is mixed with the paddle attachment for 1 minute, it rests 5 minutes and is then mixed again for 1 minute at about a medium speed.  It is then immediately folded and is followed by 4 more folds after 5 minute rest intervals.  After the last fold, it is scaled, balled and refrigerated.  Although the dough is very good after a couple days cooling, it is even better if it sits longer.  As the dough sits in the fridge, it slowly fills up my container, growing higher each day.  This is when the dough tastes best to me and my crew.

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (3%):
IDY (.3%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (169.3%):
Single Ball:

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

811.82 g  |  28.64 oz | 1.79 lbs
503.33 g  |  17.75 oz | 1.11 lbs
24.35 g | 0.86 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.36 tsp | 1.45 tbsp
2.44 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
16.24 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.61 tsp | 1.2 tbsp
16.24 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.07 tsp | 1.36 tbsp
1374.41 g | 48.48 oz | 3.03 lbs | TF = N/A
343.6 g | 12.12 oz | 0.76 lbs
 
 
137.44 g | 4.85 oz | 0.3 lbs
137.44 g | 4.85 oz | 0.3 lbs
274.88 g | 9.7 oz | 0.61 lbs

 
674.38 g | 23.79 oz | 1.49 lbs
365.89 g | 12.91 oz | 0.81 lbs
24.35 g | 0.86 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.36 tsp | 1.45 tbsp
2.44 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
274.88 g | 9.7 oz | 0.61 lbs
16.24 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.61 tsp | 1.2 tbsp
16.24 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.07 tsp | 1.36 tbsp
1374.41 g | 48.48 oz | 3.03 lbs  | TF = N/A

John


Offline fazzari

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2014, 10:18:58 PM »
Here is a representation of the results I'm getting.  This dough is 132 hours old.  And even though it has blown the lid as it warms up today,  the dough stays nice and strong and takes energy to stretch out.  I wish I knew why this is true, but I don't...I'm leaning towards the stretch and folds as the answer though.  This 12 ounce dough was stretched to about 13 inches and was baked in a 550 degree deck oven.  It has beautiful color, amazing texture and is delicious.

John

Offline DannyG

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2014, 09:05:03 AM »
John, I've been following your process since reading about it in your earlier thread and can confirm the same great results. It is my go-to recipe at this time. The only thing I don't do is use any IDY as the starter alone seems to be plenty. My results are identical to yours including the rise in the containers. (I also use AT flour)

A big thanks for putting this out there.

Dan

Offline fazzari

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2014, 10:17:03 AM »
Dan
Thanks for the info.  As for the yeast, this recipe is simply my evolving attempt to add flavor to my everyday dough.  The reason the yeast is still in there is simply because the results have been so good I've been reluctant to change...but now that you report deleting the yeast, I shall try the same.  So, you are speeding up the evolution.  Thanks
John



Offline anverc

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2014, 11:58:50 AM »
I'm going to try this next week :D

I have a couple of questions:

how large does the ball get while refrigerated (does it quadruple)?  i store my balls (i target 250g) in 32oz ziploc  screwtop containers.
how long do you think before the dough is no longer good? I ask this because we typically make 8 dough balls and throw them straight into the freezer after weighing, then we take it out 6-12 hours before we want pizza, it works all-right, but the recipe i have been following is completely different than this one and your dough looks far better in the texture department,  my balls don't grow bigger normally, they typically flatten out  :-D - i guess that has to do with all the freezing going on - so maybe they will last up to 2 weeks in the fridge or is that pushing it?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 12:00:44 PM by anverc »
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Offline fazzari

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2014, 12:01:50 AM »

I'm going to try this next week :D

I have a couple of questions:

how large does the ball get while refrigerated (does it quadruple)?  i store my balls (i target 250g) in 32oz ziploc  screwtop containers.
how long do you think before the dough is no longer good? I ask this because we typically make 8 dough balls and throw them straight into the freezer after weighing, then we take it out 6-12 hours before we want pizza, it works all-right, but the recipe i have been following is completely different than this one and your dough looks far better in the texture department,  my balls don't grow bigger normally, they typically flatten out  :-D - i guess that has to do with all the freezing going on - so maybe they will last up to 2 weeks in the fridge or is that pushing it?
I'd say it at least triples in a 4 or 5 day span.  I get really nice browning and oven spring up to about day 4 or 5, then they must bake a little longer to brown.  I like to use dough that has at least aged 48 hours...that seems to me to be the point it gets real good...maybe you should try freezing half and refrigerating half and plan on giving your dough some ferment time.  Hope it works out!

John

Offline Pizza Rustica

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2014, 12:46:16 AM »
Hi John, in your 3 day fold process you were re-balling/folding 5 hours prior to bake. Are you still using this process with the 5 fold or have you gone to straight balling and then pulling out a few hours prior to bake?

Thanks, Russ
Russ

Offline fazzari

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2014, 08:14:13 AM »
Hi John, in your 3 day fold process you were re-balling/folding 5 hours prior to bake. Are you still using this process with the 5 fold or have you gone to straight balling and then pulling out a few hours prior to bake?
Russ
As I've experimented using this process I've learned two great lessons.  Number 1, I now feed my sourdough with equal weights of water and flour to have the same constant hydration.  Number 2, for some reason, 5 folds is the magic number...this is the number which allows me not to have to reball and which makes the system foolproof.  Oh, and I almost forgot, it took me awhile to dial in the correct hydration for the All Trumps I am using.....seems to be 62%.

John

Offline Pizza Rustica

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2014, 01:52:56 AM »
Thanks John,
 I have two batches working now. One a poolish and the other with the starter both using your 5 fold method. The starter dough was certainly much lighter and further developed. At what stage is your starter mixed in when you first start your process? I remember initially you were using it in a non-mature state. Is that still the case? or if not I would assume after several feedings it is fairly well developed when you first mix it?

Regards, Russ

Russ

Offline fazzari

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2014, 12:40:57 AM »
Thanks John,
 I have two batches working now. One a poolish and the other with the starter both using your 5 fold method. The starter dough was certainly much lighter and further developed. At what stage is your starter mixed in when you first start your process? I remember initially you were using it in a non-mature state. Is that still the case? or if not I would assume after several feedings it is fairly well developed when you first mix it?
I always feed it to get back to full strength...but I'm not afraid to use it cold out of the fridge if I have to.....the past month I've been using it about 4 to 6 hours after feeding.  It just depends on my time frame...have had good luck everyway I've tried so far.
JOhn


Offline anverc

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2014, 09:29:12 AM »
Wow! this came out awesome!

I wanted to try them before i attempted freezing, so I ate five over the 3-5 day stretch.  at 3 days the dough was loose and easy to work with, had nice spring, everything was great but it didn't taste like anything.  The flavor developed over the next two days.   

i didn't try freezing the 5-fold yet.  i'm going to try different timings next week, I would like to figure out something that can go freezer to oven in 8 hours.

Quote
the dough stays nice and strong and takes energy to stretch out.  I wish I knew why this is true, but I don't..
I didn't have this problem.  In-fact i was able to stretch the dough so thin, so easily, that i was affraid it was going to be soggy.  But it got really crispy and resulted in basically a cracker crust - paper thin and held it's horizontal shape when i picked it up!  i was quite impressed.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 09:31:57 AM by anverc »
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Offline fazzari

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2014, 10:15:58 PM »
Wow! this came out awesome!

I wanted to try them before i attempted freezing, so I ate five over the 3-5 day stretch.  at 3 days the dough was loose and easy to work with, had nice spring, everything was great but it didn't taste like anything.  The flavor developed over the next two days.   

i didn't try freezing the 5-fold yet.  i'm going to try different timings next week, I would like to figure out something that can go freezer to oven in 8 hours.
I didn't have this problem.  In-fact i was able to stretch the dough so thin, so easily, that i was affraid it was going to be soggy.  But it got really crispy and resulted in basically a cracker crust - paper thin and held it's horizontal shape when i picked it up!  i was quite impressed.

A couple quick questions... have you used a mixer in the past, and if you have what differences do you find in the doughs.  Also, I find these doughs brown very nicely, do you?  I also find that even at day 5, the dough has good strength, and makes as beautiful a pizza as it tastes....I'm talking color, oven spring, the whole works...yes, it's easier to open, but still is remarkably strong.

Thanks
John

Offline mbrulato

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2014, 10:28:45 PM »
John,

This formula sounds great.  I've been struggling with getting a great NY style pie using Ischia as you may have read  ;D. If I were to use your formula to make a 48 hour dough using cold fermentation, do you suggest that I use the same amount of Ischia as indicated above?  Or should I use the SD prediction table and continue to use my basement for fermentation, which has been between 61 and 63 degrees these last few weeks.
Mary Ann

Offline fazzari

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2014, 07:42:58 AM »

This formula sounds great.  I've been struggling with getting a great NY style pie using Ischia as you may have read  ;D. If I were to use your formula to make a 48 hour dough using cold fermentation, do you suggest that I use the same amount of Ischia as indicated above?  Or should I use the SD prediction table and continue to use my basement for fermentation, which has been between 61 and 63 degrees these last few weeks.
Honestly, I've only read about the SD prediction table and have never tried it.  The recipe I'm using started out simply as an emergency dough, and then has progressed to this point through experimentation.  I'm sold on the recipe and especially the stretch and fold method, as this is how I make all my doughs now.  So, after many, many experiments I can tell you, I never vary the amount of SD, and I always make 4 to 6 doughs at a time to be used daily after 2 days in the fridge.  The doughs change each day, all are good , but improve with age....   Today, I am trying a 144 hour old dough...I know it will be amazing!

John

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2014, 12:41:55 PM »
John, could you give me a bit more detail on mixing the preferment?  In your recipe, you have a preferment weighing 274.88, which is half water, half flour. How much Ischia starter would you mix in with that?  Or is that all mature Ischia starter?  Sorry if I am a bit thick on this.  I may have asked a similar question a while ago. 

Thanks!

TinRoof

Offline fazzari

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2014, 05:26:31 PM »
John, could you give me a bit more detail on mixing the preferment?  In your recipe, you have a preferment weighing 274.88, which is half water, half flour. How much Ischia starter would you mix in with that?  Or is that all mature Ischia starter?  Sorry if I am a bit thick on this.  I may have asked a similar question a while ago. 

The preferment is all Ischia.  So, I feed my Ischia to get to full strength and take out the amount I need to make a batch of dough.
John

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2014, 10:34:58 PM »
OK, I will give it a try. Sounds like it should be great! 

Offline anverc

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2014, 04:41:09 PM »
A couple quick questions... have you used a mixer in the past, and if you have what differences do you find in the doughs.  Also, I find these doughs brown very nicely, do you?  I also find that even at day 5, the dough has good strength, and makes as beautiful a pizza as it tastes....I'm talking color, oven spring, the whole works...yes, it's easier to open, but still is remarkably strong.

I've used both the stand mixer w/ hook, and just a wooden spoon. before i switched to your recipe i think i was over-working the dough.  I would slap it on the counter and fold it in half several times and let it rest 10 minutes inbetween.  I did this 3-5 times before balling and refrigerating it.  I used this technique together with my original posted recipe (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26417.msg266550.html#msg266550).

The differences are intense.  Where my recipe would be soggy in the center of the pizza, yours is crispy.  Both had nice spring on the sides, and air-browning.  I won't be using my old style/recipe anymore.

The preferment is all Ischia.  So, I feed my Ischia to get to full strength and take out the amount I need to make a batch of dough.
John

 the only downside is this wasn't as flavorful as my old crust - i'm thinking that making a longer pre-ferment might help? maybe starting with 55g starter and building the 275g pre-ferment from that?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 04:43:02 PM by anverc »
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Offline fazzari

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2014, 10:53:05 PM »
the only downside is this wasn't as flavorful as my old crust - i'm thinking that making a longer pre-ferment might help? maybe starting with 55g starter and building the 275g pre-ferment from that?
I hope it's not heresy to admit that I'm not a fan of overly strong sourdough...I'm a huge fan of the subtle flavors of a young Ischia SD, especially when topped with excellent toppings.  Thanks for the feed back
John

Offline chasenpse

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Re: A five fold sourdough!!
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2014, 09:01:47 AM »
I won't be using my old style/recipe anymore.
 the only downside is this wasn't as flavorful as my old crust - i'm thinking that making a longer pre-ferment might help? maybe starting with 55g starter and building the 275g pre-ferment from that?

Correct, less starter and a longer, cooler ferment time will give you more flavor. What hydration is your starter at?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 09:18:28 AM by chasenpse »
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