Author Topic: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?  (Read 1964 times)

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Online waltertore

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2014, 04:45:47 PM »
Walter!!!

Those pics made me feel as if I was starving!

What are the major Blodgett oven options out there and the major differences? I would like to be able to do pretzels from time to time and the option for bagels occasionally as well. Is the Blodgett ideal for pretzels and/or bagels or is it just a make shift arrangement. In other words should I really be thinking of a pizza oven for my pizza and a different oven for pretzels/bagels?

And I really appreciated your story.

Thanks,

Barry



Barry:  First you should figure out what size place you want to run.  A stack of 1000's is great for my speed/needs.   The temp for the NY style is 500-570.  Bagels/pretzels like closer to 400 degrees.  Deck ovens can put out a lot of pizzas if you have the crew to man them.  Most high volume NJ/NY places have one crew making the pies, and another crew manning the oven/cutting/boxing.  My ovens can put out 8-18" pies in less than 1/2hour- figure 3 minutes to make a pie, 6 minutes to bake it.   Figure that  with 2/3 people making the pies and 1-2 people maning the ovens and you got it.  Now figure just me making the pies and maning the ovens and we are down to about 7-10 pies an hour.  It takes me about 3-4 minutes to make a pie and get it in the oven.  By the time the third one is in and the first is ready to come out if they are just cheese pies and everything is grooving.  Taking the first out takes me away from making another pie.  Then I have to grate the parmigiano cheese and cut fresh basil on it, slice it, and send it out in box or on a pan for eat in. At this point I am lucky to get 1 more partially made and the second is done and the third is real close. Plus something will often need my attention away from the oven- get more sauce/cheese/topping, etc, and there you got more time gone bye. All that confusion I just spewed basically says I can do 3 pies at a time on my own, then the oven is cleared and I go again.

 So I really don't need a second oven for pizza  if doing everything myself with a low volume operation.  This allows the bottom oven (a bit of a bend on my back for continuous pizzas) at the lower temp of 400 for bagels/pretzels or 450 for artisan breads/baguettes.  I have one student that makes pies with me and when we get busy I move between making and oven guy while she stays strickly on making pies. 

I don't crunch numbers very good  so my figuring above may be off.  But you will get the gist of it.  The newer blodgett 1048 and Bakers Pride Y series ovens are wider and can handle 6- 18" pies but the new stones will require the oven tender to be constantly rotating the pies on the deck to achieve even cooking and avoid burning the crust.  That also means more oven heat loss due to the door being open so much and slower recovery times because the new stones don't hold heat/recover like the old stones.   So many places run their ovens wide open at 650 if they want to keep their bakes under 10 minutes. Then you have to deal with your first runs of pies charring more than you might like and then you find your groove but in a lull they heat back up and there you go again.  I have seen lots of pizzerias that are high volume have erratic results with thier crust charring levels due to this.   With the 1000's I can run them at 550 and have very little heat loss on the stones when they are going full tilt pie after pie.  Conveyor ovens are the norm now for high volume pizzerias outside the NYC/CT area.  You can run massive numbers through them and I hear the good ones can make a good NY pizza.  I haven't witnessed that but to me the art is gone and I have no interest in such an oven.  Walter

PS:  When I make my bagels/pretzels in the 1000's it is for individual customer special orders only-always a native NY/NJ person.   Commercial accounts make up almost all our bagel sales and we make about 300 bagels a day that are sold in the schools/university cafeterias.  There is no way I could do that in the blodgetts and make pizzas.  So we cook the bagels, after boiling, in a stack of convection ovens.  Each oven will cook 120 bagels in 15 minutes.  We use full size sheet pans that are drilled out like you see on the french bread pans you can now buy.   That is the only way we can get the bagels done and allow enough time for them to cool, be sliced, bagged, within our workday.   The old bagel shops I grew up around used the process in the video below.  Those ferris wheel like ovens are the way to do bagels if you go high volume and want to do them on stones.   bagels, pretzels, breads are a lot more work than pizzas if done by hand and you have to make a lot to make any money. 

this a video I suggest anyone serious about bagel making watch many times.  There was a bagel shop around the corner from where I grew up and I spent many afternoons watching them make bagels and they used the exact same set up.  It was cool.  No one ever said leave and they usually gave me a couple of bagels for free which I loved!

<a href="http://youtu.be/cPCOJAm5L2U" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/cPCOJAm5L2U</a>
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 07:47:58 PM by waltertore »


Offline Dr. Barry

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2014, 08:42:37 PM »
Walter,

That Bagel video was amazing. It took me back home after watching it for the first 5 seconds.

Thank you. There is a pizza joint near my house that has that ferris wheel type oven that they use for pizza. It is a monster. It's massive. The guy at the shop told me that it has been in the same spot for over 50 years and that they built the store around the oven.

Now, is there a youtube video for making NY pretzels?

Barry

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2014, 08:48:35 PM »
Walter,

That Bagel video was amazing. It took me back home after watching it for the first 5 seconds.

Thank you. There is a pizza joint near my house that has that ferris wheel type oven that they use for pizza. It is a monster. It's massive. The guy at the shop told me that it has been in the same spot for over 50 years and that they built the store around the oven.

Now, is there a youtube video for making NY pretzels?

Barry

Barry:  Those ovens are not so good for pizza like you are wanting. The pretzels are easy.  We use the same dough as the bagels- malt syrup for sweetner, roll em out put them together, let them rise overnight in the fridge, boil, salt, bake, done.  Yes that video is killer.  You will need the big kettle and water cooled slide if you are going to do big numbers the old school way.  They have machines that make bagels but to me that takes the art out of it like conveyor ovens do to pizza.  Where are you from?  I am from the Newark NJ area.  Walter

Offline Dr. Barry

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2014, 08:58:46 PM »
Barry:  Those ovens are not so good for pizza like you are wanting. The pretzels are easy.  We use the same dough as the bagels- malt syrup for sweetner, roll em out put them together, let them rise overnight in the fridge, boil, salt, bake, done.  Yes that video is killer.  You will need the big kettle and water cooled slide if you are going to do big numbers the old school way.  They have machines that make bagels but to me that takes the art out of it like conveyor ovens do to pizza.  Where are you from?  I am from the Newark NJ area.  Walter

The place close to me with the ferris wheel makes about the worst pizza ever, no argument there.

I grew up in Queens. That's my pizza/bagel/pretzel heritage. I like a good egg cream too. I also love a Sabretts hot dog (boiled of course) on a steamed bun with mustard and sauerkraut. Can't find much of that stuff around me here in Chicago.

I was back in NYC recently and it was food heaven. All of the above. Lots of it.

Barry

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2014, 09:17:04 PM »
The place close to me with the ferris wheel makes about the worst pizza ever, no argument there.

I grew up in Queens. That's my pizza/bagel/pretzel heritage. I like a good egg cream too. I also love a Sabretts hot dog (boiled of course) on a steamed bun with mustard and sauerkraut. Can't find much of that stuff around me here in Chicago.

I was back in NYC recently and it was food heaven. All of the above. Lots of it.

Barry


yeah an egg cream!  I love sabretts with that crunch and garlic flavor.  I eat about 10 when I go back home.  I often think of doing a Jimmy Buff Italian Hot Dog (a real NJ thing like taylor ham) but working with boiling oil is too messy for me.  I made about 30 Jimmy Buffs out here in OH last  year-used pizza dough for the rolls and  the staff at our school bought them up as fast as I could make them but it made such a mess.  They still keep asking when am I going to do them again. I think if someone did those on a food truck they would make a killing!  Walter

<a href="http://youtu.be/XfO6Rem5cao" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/XfO6Rem5cao</a>

Offline Dr. Barry

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2014, 09:29:29 PM »
yeah an egg cream!  I love sabretts with that crunch and garlic flavor.  I eat about 10 when I go back home.  I often think of doing a Jimmy Buff Italian Hot Dog (a real NJ thing like taylor ham) but working with boiling oil is too messy for me.  I made about 30 Jimmy Buffs out here in OH last  year-used pizza dough for the rolls and  the staff at our school bought them up as fast as I could make them but it made such a mess.  They still keep asking when am I going to do them again. I think if someone did those on a food truck they would make a killing!  Walter

http://youtu.be/XfO6Rem5cao


Oh my god.

Does anyone else do that Jimmy Buff deal or is that just Jimmy's thing?

And you had to mention the Taylor Ham too?

Now I'm really missing home...

Barry

PS-love that food truck idea!

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2014, 09:47:00 PM »
I don't believe I've ever seen a "flat top griddle" quite like Jimmy's. Interesting..... 8)
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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2014, 07:18:02 AM »
Jimmy Buffs is the king of hot dogs IMO and if you know where to go in NJ you can find food as good as most NYC places.   Jersey got slammed everytime I ventured into NYC and said where I was from.  It was like I was some kind of inferior being from a culturarl wasteland and I should get on my knees and worship NYC.  I got tired of it to tell you the truth and haven't been back to NYC since the late 80's with my band.  I hated playing NYC.  You  had the tolls, traffic, parking, problems, and on top of that it never paid enough to break even.  Conversely, I was playing NJ clubs that were packed and wild and making a grand a week in my pocket as a teen.  Taylor ham and Jimmy Buffs are Jersey originals.  We use to walk to the original store and get one for a buck.  Watching them being made was as much fun as eating them.  It was a good 15 minute walk so we would park ourselves there for good while before heading out.  Home made Italian lemon ice was the dessert stop at an Italian Bakery.  Both Jimmy's and the bakery are long gone.  I see they have franchised out and found this video.  It has a different fryer system with ingredients being cooked seperately.  The first video is the original set up.  I know a food truck serving these would kill out here on the summer/fall festival circuit as well as parked in a good location in Columbus.  A third generation NYC pizzeria owner I know that lives in Columbus has tried to get me to run a pizzeria for him.  He is a big supporter of our program and was trying to buy a small shop here in my area but nothing turned up.  He was even willing to buy a van and bus us all into Columbus everyday (40 miles each way). I would handpick a special needs staff but declined because my current gig is still going good.  He and his wife come to get out pizza regularly as well as volunteer when we get big orders.  I turned him on to Jimmy Buffs and he loved them.  He had never heard of them.   He was debating the food truck idea as well as another guy I know out here who I gave one to.  The midwest likes large, greasy, potatoes, hot dogs, bread.  It could be a goldmine and the equipment needed on the truck is minimual.  We could make the pizza bread for them.  Anyway, NJ got it all over NYC for me :)  Walter

<a href="http://youtu.be/_SQzhf1L2hc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/_SQzhf1L2hc</a>
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 07:28:14 AM by waltertore »

Offline Dr. Barry

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2014, 10:07:47 AM »
Jimmy Buffs is the king of hot dogs IMO and if you know where to go in NJ you can find food as good as most NYC places.   Jersey got slammed everytime I ventured into NYC and said where I was from.  It was like I was some kind of inferior being from a culturarl wasteland and I should get on my knees and worship NYC.  I got tired of it to tell you the truth and haven't been back to NYC since the late 80's with my band.  I hated playing NYC.  You  had the tolls, traffic, parking, problems, and on top of that it never paid enough to break even.  Conversely, I was playing NJ clubs that were packed and wild and making a grand a week in my pocket as a teen.  Taylor ham and Jimmy Buffs are Jersey originals.  We use to walk to the original store and get one for a buck.  Watching them being made was as much fun as eating them.  It was a good 15 minute walk so we would park ourselves there for good while before heading out.  Home made Italian lemon ice was the dessert stop at an Italian Bakery.  Both Jimmy's and the bakery are long gone.  I see they have franchised out and found this video.  It has a different fryer system with ingredients being cooked seperately.  The first video is the original set up.  I know a food truck serving these would kill out here on the summer/fall festival circuit as well as parked in a good location in Columbus.  A third generation NYC pizzeria owner I know that lives in Columbus has tried to get me to run a pizzeria for him.  He is a big supporter of our program and was trying to buy a small shop here in my area but nothing turned up.  He was even willing to buy a van and bus us all into Columbus everyday (40 miles each way). I would handpick a special needs staff but declined because my current gig is still going good.  He and his wife come to get out pizza regularly as well as volunteer when we get big orders.  I turned him on to Jimmy Buffs and he loved them.  He had never heard of them.   He was debating the food truck idea as well as another guy I know out here who I gave one to.  The midwest likes large, greasy, potatoes, hot dogs, bread.  It could be a goldmine and the equipment needed on the truck is minimual.  We could make the pizza bread for them.  Anyway, NJ got it all over NYC for me :)  Walter

http://youtu.be/_SQzhf1L2hc


Another great video. It seems that they only have 2 locations and are keeping it in the family???

That NYC vs. NJ thing is just silly bravado crapola that has been around forever. Like a crosstown rivalry. Anyone who can't see that NJ has its serious food scene is just nuts. You proved it alone just by mentioning Taylor Ham and Jimmy Buffs.

What's involved in making that pizza bread for the Jimmy Buff Hot Dog?

I haven't had a Taylor Ham in about forever. I don't think there is anyplace around here that has even heard of such a thing. I remember my Dad taking me to the Boardwalk in NJ and geting one for he and I. He put ketchup on it. Heaven.

Barry

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2014, 11:53:55 AM »
We use the same dough as the bagels- malt syrup...

Walter, I've been meaning to tell you something (because I was already pretty sure you use malt syrup or powder for bagels): I desperately need malt syrup!!! I've never used malt syrup and I have no idea where to get it, and I'm sure if I go to a place that carries it I'd have to buy a large quantity. So I'm hoping either: 1) I can buy some from you; or 2) You can let me know where I can get some.

Someone with some inside information posted a while back that malt syrup or powder is kind of the magic ingredient for Tommy's dough, and his explanation added up. So I've been dying to get my hands on some of this stuff.


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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2014, 02:29:22 PM »
Walter, I've been meaning to tell you something (because I was already pretty sure you use malt syrup or powder for bagels): I desperately need malt syrup!!! I've never used malt syrup and I have no idea where to get it, and I'm sure if I go to a place that carries it I'd have to buy a large quantity. So I'm hoping either: 1) I can buy some from you; or 2) You can let me know where I can get some.

Someone with some inside information posted a while back that malt syrup or powder is kind of the magic ingredient for Tommy's dough, and his explanation added up. So I've been dying to get my hands on some of this stuff.


here is what I use. 
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/maillard-malts-gold-malt-extract-syrup.html

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2014, 02:47:19 PM »
Is that where you buy it?

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2014, 02:57:32 PM »
Ryan:  Yes I buy it by the case in  the large bottles. I have been buying from them for years.  Great service.  Walter

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2014, 03:31:03 PM »
Another great video. It seems that they only have 2 locations and are keeping it in the family???

That NYC vs. NJ thing is just silly bravado crapola that has been around forever. Like a crosstown rivalry. Anyone who can't see that NJ has its serious food scene is just nuts. You proved it alone just by mentioning Taylor Ham and Jimmy Buffs.

What's involved in making that pizza bread for the Jimmy Buff Hot Dog?

I haven't had a Taylor Ham in about forever. I don't think there is anyplace around here that has even heard of such a thing. I remember my Dad taking me to the Boardwalk in NJ and geting one for he and I. He put ketchup on it. Heaven.

Barry

Barry: The pizza bread is easy. I make a fairly wet dough, high yeast dough,  let it cold ferment for overnight, take it out, place on parchment lined sheet pans, let it rise quite a bit About doubled, brush it with oil, bake it till done. 

Our local grocery store in our little village of 3,000 people carries taylor ham.  I was shocked and buy a few a month just so they keep carrying it.  I have put it on pizza as a topping and people love it.  A teacher down the hall from me whose wife was the personal chef for Gov. Taft for the 8 years he was in as governer,  calls it spam on steroids.  When I built tennis courts out of Carlstadt NJ we would get our daily breakfast sandwich off a truck- roll with taylor ham, cheese, eggs, with ketchup and wrapped in paper- $1.00.  I spent every summer at Ortley beach- next to seaside heights.  My grandfather lived in a small 2bdrm bungaloo year round and we spent our summers there.  In exchange my mother cooked, cleaned, and we pulled weeds, painted, picked dandelions for his dandelion wine.  I love the Jersey shore.  Walter

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2014, 12:50:02 PM »
Ryan:  Yes I buy it by the case in  the large bottles. I have been buying from them for years.  Great service.  Walter

Cool. Thanks. Good to know.

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2014, 09:03:30 AM »
Ryan,

You can find barley malt syrup in small bottles. Here are a few examples:

http://www.edenfoods.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=104050

http://www.barryfarm.com/sugars.htm

http://search.kingarthurflour.com/baking/Barley-Malt-Syrup

Of course, shipping will add to the cost but a bottle will last you a long time based on the amounts you would use for your experiments.

Peter

Offline dmckean44

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2014, 03:05:23 PM »
The stuff from the homebrew supply stores will be fresher for sure.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2014, 04:46:53 PM »
I finally decided to order some of this stuff, from Walter's link. I also looked at each of Peter's links, but since Walter said he's happy with his supplier, I thought that was a good enough reason to order from the same place. (The shipping costs almost as much as the purchase.)

Offline Davydd

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2014, 05:18:53 PM »
It's not as ridiculous as you might think. The square cut is also known as the "tavern cut", "party cut" and "family cut". Family pizza night is a long tradition in the mid-west. The square cut makes it more like a fried chicken dinner where every family member has their favorite pieces and order in which they'll eat them. Pizza eaters that don't eat crust (often kids) love the center pieces most. It's also like Bob says, the pizza gets enjoyed over the course of several hours with lots of great conversation. You eat until you're full and hang out and often times you decide you have room for a couple more squares or even to decide as a group to order another pizza.

As for the style itself, compared to NY pizza it's very topping forward. The crust is a conduit for the fresh cheese, house made sausage and the individual restaurant's secret sauce. NY style pizza is more about balance and how all the textures and flavors come together in your mouth.

Well described. I also think of the square cuts as an "appetizer" pizza.
Davydd

Offline JConk007

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Re: Best oven choices for NY style pizza?
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2014, 06:01:03 PM »
I LOVE the ferris wheel ovens and the make a great NY style. Here are at least 10 of them locally fish, cutler, middleby marshal... The idea with these monsters is production they do a 24" pie at one place !!!
Capacity is tremendous and little to no spinning some of my favorite slices come from these joints. Happy to post. I also like the Marsal oven brick lined and just awesome for a NY style
John
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