Author Topic: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)  (Read 6174 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« on: January 20, 2014, 02:47:11 PM »
Finally found it. Let the dissecting begin.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2014, 03:22:49 PM »
Nate,

Do you have the related Nutrition Facts?

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2014, 03:54:16 PM »
Here is the nutritional data for 7oz slice.  The heart shaped pizza is 42oz.

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Offline vcb

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2014, 04:58:57 PM »
I photomerged the giordano's label so we can read it a a little easier.
(click on the image to see the slightly larger one)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2014, 06:02:29 PM »
Nate,

I'm afraid that there isn't enough there to be able to reverse engineer the Giordano's heart shaped pepperoni pizza, for several reasons.

First, the ingredients list has wheat flour as the first ingredient for the crust. Standing alone, under FDA labeling rules that would mean the the wheat flour is unbleached, nonbromated, unenriched and unmalted. Flours that meet those requirements are often organic flours, such as the Sperry flour from General Mills (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/sperry-organic-bread-flour-untreated-50-lb/57901000), although there are a few flours from General Mills that are regular flours that also meet the above requirements, such as the Pollyanna (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/pollyanna-flour-untreated-50-lb/56441000?mct=Flour&ct=winter-patent&typ=Type) and Neapolitan (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/gold-medal-neapolitan-flour-50-lb/50237000) flours. At the retail level, a flour that meets the above requirements is the Hodgson Mill unbleached white flour at http://www.hodgsonmillstore.com/en/flours-and-meals/all-natural-flour/white-flour-unbleached-71518-05009-001_group. Whether Giordano's is using a flour as basic as the one described above is hard to say. It is very uncommon.

Second, if the margarine product in the ingredients list is truly a margarine product, with at least 80% oil, then that product is very similar to what you will find in the supermarket, and it will be a cheap, or at least inexpensive, margarine. You might not find the exact margarine product that Giordano's is using, but you should find something quite close. Some may even have less than 80% oil. Also, some, but not all such products, will include a milk based ingredient, such as dry milk powder, cream, buttermilk or, like the Giordano's margarine product, whey solids. Also, the acidulant in the margarine products will vary, such as lactic acid, phosphoric acid, or, like the Giordano's margarine product, citric acid. An example of a true margarine product that is readily found in supermarkets is the Land O Lakes product such as described at http://www.landolakes.com/product/14000/margarine---sticks. That is generally a quality product but there are many others that are less costly and with similar compositions of ingredients.

Third, I tend to be very suspicious of nutrition websites such as the one you referenced (sparkpeople.com). Having looked at websites like that for many years as part of my research, I have found them to be incomplete in too many cases to place reliance on them. For example, the sparkpeople Nutrition Facts you referenced do not say how many servings there are, and it also shows no Sat Fat for the slice analyzed there. If the Sat Fat per slice is truly zero, that means that under FDA rules the actual amount of Sat Fat is less than 0.5g. Let us assume there are six servings and that the actual Sat Fat per serving was actually 0.4g. That would be 2.4g of Sat Fat for the entire pizza. That would be equivalent to a little over one tablespoon of soybean oil (see http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/507/2). With soybean oil as the third most predominant ingredient in the Giordano's ingredients list (right after flour and water) and is also used in the Giordano's margarine product, a total of 2.4g Sat Fat can't be right. Apart from all this is the the fact that the sparkpeople information is not for a heart-shaped Giordano's pizza. The information is for another Giordano's pizza.

I will also point out that the sparkpeople data shows no enrichments of the product, such as the B Vitamins, which are the part of just about every flour enrichment package used by millers in the United States, and also in many foreign countries. On the surface, the sparkpeople data might suggest that the Giordano's flour is actually unenriched but it can also mean that the sparkpeople data is incomplete. Based on my experience, I would guess the latter.

Fourth, it would be extremely difficult sitting in front of a computer with only the Giordano's ingredients list to reverse engineer the pizza. There is too much overlap of the nutrients. For example, in addition to salt that is added to the dough, there are also sources of Sodium in the flour, in the sauce (including the tomatoes), in the Giordano's margarine product, in the cheese, in the pepperoni, and in the seasonings. There is no easy way to apportion the total Sodium content among all of these sources. There will be similar dilemmas with the Total Fat and Sat Fat (which are in the soybean oil, the margarine product, the pepperoni, and the flour), Protein (which is in the flour, the cheese, the sauce, the cheese, and the pepperoni), and Dietary Fiber (which is in the flour and the sauce). You would need to know the quantities of all of the major components of the pizza to have a chance at reverse engineering it.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 06:18:32 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2014, 06:28:07 PM »
Peter,

What about the soy lecithin?  Is that most likely egg yolk used for emulsion?

Are you saying the flour being used is very uncommon then?  Any idea what type of flour it is?

I knew the Giordanos crust was extremely unique so it makes sense it would be difficult.  LOL
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 06:31:44 PM by pythonic »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2014, 07:37:57 PM »
Nate,

Generic lecithin can be extracted from various foods, including eggs, but soy lecithin is extracted from soybeans. There is absolutely nothing unique about lecithin in margarine, or a margarine-like product.

These days, hard margarine products with at least 80% oil are harder and harder to find, because they are being replaced with products that are low in Trans Fat. What you are likely to find in the supermarkets that are true hard margarine products are likely to be the cheapest margarine products sold in the supermarkets. The stuff that is under a buck a pound, or pretty close to that. Ed's helpful merging of the pieces of the Giordano's ingredients list makes it easier to search. For example, if you look at the hard margarine products and some of the margarine-like products in the article at http://courses.bio.indiana.edu/L104-Bonner/F11/imagesF11/L14/Butter.Margarine.html, you will see that just about all of the ingredients in the Giordano's margarine are used in one brand or another, as is more evident if you look at the ingredients lists at the bottom of the article.

I don't have any idea as to what flour Giordano's may be using since I don't know if Giordano's properly complied with the listing and identification of the flour ingredients as required by FDA rules and regulations. In my experience, it would be highly unusual to use an unenriched and unmalted flour. But anything is possible I suppose. One might conclude that it should be possible to pay less for a flour that has no enrichment, no malting, no bleaching and no bromating but if such a product is a low-demand product it might not be the cheapest option. I think we can safely rule out that Giordano's is using organic flour. I should also add that of all the flours that GM mills, and there are dozens, they mill only four unmalted, nonbromated, unbleached and unenriched flours. Of those, the one that is closest to an all-purpose flour is the Pollyanna flour, with a protein content of 10.5% +/-1.1%. The others are in the bread flour category or higher. Even Hodgson Mill says this about their all-purpose flour: Our All-Purpose Unbleached White Flour is both unbleached,  unenriched and unbromated - a difficult combination to find in most all-purpose white flours.

The biggest takeaway for me when I saw the ingredients list you posted is that soybean oil, which is perhaps the cheapest oil that can be used in a pizza dough, is used, not corn oil or a blend with olive oil. And if the margarine product is truly a hard margarine, and not misnamed in the ingredients list, that product is also an inexpensive product. And if we were to find that Giordano's is also using a cheap flour to boot, what does that say about the quality of a Giordano's pizza? :-D. Maybe the sauce and cheese and fillings save the pizza.

The other takeaway is that more soybean oil is used by weight than the margarine product. That makes the pizza even cheaper to make. None of this surprises me anymore. I looks at ingredients lists and Nutrition Facts all the time and I shudder when I read a lot of what goes into various food products. And it is not only in the supermarkets. Look at the ingredients lists of fast food products and you will see what I mean.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 08:50:03 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2014, 09:34:13 AM »
Before I say anything that might be of substance, I want to ask a question: Hasn't it been pretty well established that the packaged pizzas with "Giordano's" branding are noticeably different than the pizzas they serve at their restaurants? (I'm just thinking I've read that in one of the older Giordano's threads.)

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2014, 10:05:00 AM »
In an effort to simplify the list of meaningful dough ingredients from the pictures above, here's my take:

Flour
Water
Soybean oil
Margarine
Salt
Beta carotene, for color (which I found interesting enough to include in this list, though I normally wouldn't)
Yeast

That is listed, of course, with the most prevalent ingredients at the top of the list (or however I'm supposed to say that). This is very in line with what my "research" has revealed since I joined the game, which includes being contacted privately by two people who claim to have inside information (one from about 1975 and one from the 80s). Still, I find the "Dough Additive" ingredient somewhat confusing. Seems like the dough may acquire salt from a few different sources.

I want to add that even though my most recent Giordano's clone dough formula calls for 6% shortening and no other fat, I think I may be leaning toward 6% oil + 2% margarine whenever I make this kind of pizza again.

And the big question is, of course: Even if we figure this out, is this dough the same as the dough they use in the pizzerias?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 10:21:01 AM »
Before I say anything that might be of substance, I want to ask a question: Hasn't it been pretty well established that the packaged pizzas with "Giordano's" branding are noticeably different than the pizzas they serve at their restaurants? (I'm just thinking I've read that in one of the older Giordano's threads.)

Ryan,

That's a fair question. Even when a company says that their frozen pizzas are like their in-store pizzas, there is a big jump in going from the in-store pizzas to frozen pizzas. We saw that with the Home Run Inn pizzas. However, my understanding with Giordano's is that their frozen pizzas are hand crafted to order as is explained at their website at http://giordanos.com/shop/. Several years ago, I got in touch with Giordano's on how they prepared their frozen pizzas and reported on my findings at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg51855/topicseen.html#msg51855. Yesterday was the first time that I can recall where I saw the ingredients list for one of the frozen Giordano's pizzas. I have no idea as to whether Giordano's is using different doughs for its frozen and in-store pizzas. For efficiency and many other reasons I would tend to think that the two doughs would be the same. Whether that would be different today under new management, I have no idea.

Peter


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 11:56:52 AM »
For efficiency and many other reasons I would tend to think that the two doughs would be the same. Whether that would be different today under new management, I have no idea.

I would think so, too. Except for the yeast percentage with the frozen stuff. (Unless it's it parbaked, then frozen.) But I was thinking maybe you had revealed somewhere that their packaged stuff is not the same as their fresh stuff.

Y'know, this made me think of something. I live right across the street from Kroger. Kroger sells packaged Donatos pizzas. I don't know if they're frozen or refrigerated or take-n-bake or what. Maybe I'll get one soon (like today?) and see how it compares to Donatos from a Donatos unit.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 11:58:51 AM by Aimless Ryan »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2014, 04:12:29 PM »
I just ate most of a Donatos Take & Bake pepperoni pizza (refrigerated). It was 12" and cost $8.99 at Kroger.

Verdict: Not bad but not spectacular, either. It does resemble actual Donatos pizza for the most part, but there is something missing. My biggest complaint is that it tasted like next day reheated pizza, in that the sauce had soaked into the dough (and made the sauce barely noticeable). There's really no reason to buy this pizza when you can get the real thing for a buck or two more.

I took some pictures, including both the front and back of the packaging, and I'll probably start a thread about it on the appropriate board.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2014, 11:12:02 PM »
Peter,

If I can get you the proper nutritional info will that help?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2014, 01:30:15 PM »
If I can get you the proper nutritional info will that help?
Nate,

It is hard to say. However, the best nutrition information is the nutrition information for the simplest pizza which, for a stuffed pizza, is likely to be a basic cheese and tomato pizza. I would assume that the same ingredients are used for a round pizza as for a heart-shaped pizza but the geometry of a round pizza is much easier to deal with than for a heart-shaped pizza. Also, the more complicated the pizza, for example, one with a lot of different fillings, including meats, the more problematic the reverse engineering project becomes. That is because many of the nutrients, and especially Sodium, are found in several different places and there is no easy way, even with Nutrition Facts, to be able to allocate the Sodium among all the places where it is found.

Peter

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2014, 06:50:45 PM »
Peter,

I pulled the nutritional value from one of your other posts.  This is what Giordanos sent you.

SMALL CHEESE STUFFED PIZZA ANALYSIS
Moisture 44.2%
Protein (N X 6.25) 12.6%
Fat 12.4%
Ash 1.97%
Saturated Fat 7.2%
Carbohydrates 28.8%
Total Calories 277/100g
Calories from Fat 112/100g
Cholesterol 22mg/100g
Dietary Fiber 2.2%
Sugar 4.7%
Sodium 480mg/100g
Calcium 274mg/100g
Iron 0.68mg/100g
Vitamin A 320 IU/100g
Vitamin B 1.9mg/ 100g

SMALL CHEESE STUFFED PIZZA NUTRITIONAL FACTS
Serving Size: 7 oz. (198g)
Servings Per Contained: 6
AMOUNT PER SERVING
CALORIES 550
CALORIES FROM FAT 220
__________________________________________________________________
% DAILY VALUES*
TOTAL FAT 25g 38%
SATURATED FAT 14g 70%
CHOLESTEROL 44mg 15%
SODIUM 950mg 40%
TOTAL CARBOHYDRATES 57g 19%
DIETARY FIBER 4g 16%
SUGAR 9g
PROTEIN 25g
_________________________________________________________________
VITAMIN A: 12%
VITAMIN C: 6%
CALCIUM: 54%
IRON: 7%

SMALL SPINACH STUFFED PIZZA ANALYSIS
Moisture 48.3%
Protein (N X 6.25) 11.9%
Fat 10.7%
Ash 1.91%
Saturated Fat 6.0%
Carbohydrates 27.2%
Total Calories 253/100g
Calories from Fat 96/100g
Cholesterol 21mg/100g
Dietary Fiber 2.9%
Sugar 3.9%
Sodium 460mg/100g
Calcium 240mg/100g
Iron 0.96mg/100g
Vitamin A 450 IU/100g
Vitamin B 3.1mg/ 100g

SMALL SPINACH STUFED PIZZA NUTRITIONAL FACTS
Serving Size: 7 oz. (198g)
Servings Per Contained: 6
AMOUNT PER SERVING
CALORIES 500
CALORIES FROM FAT 190
__________________________________________________________________
% DAILY VALUES*
TOTAL FAT 21g 32%
SATURATED FAT 12g 60%
CHOLESTEROL 42mg 14%
SODIUM 910mg 38%
TOTAL CARBOHYDRATES 54g 18%
DIETARY FIBER 6g 24%
SUGAR 8g
PROTEIN 24g
_________________________________________________________________
VITAMIN A: 17%
VITAMIN C: 10%
CALCIUM: 47%
IRON: 10%

SMALL VEGETERIAN STUFFED PIZZA ANALYSIS
Moisture 50.7%
Protein (N X 6.25) 10.4%
Fat 9.4%
Ash 1.55%
Saturated Fat 5.2%
Carbohydrates 27.9%
Total Calories 238/100g
Calories from Fat 85/100g
Cholesterol 20mg/100g
Dietary Fiber 2.8%
Sugar 4.2%
Sodium 390mg/100g
Calcium 186mg/100g
Iron 0.79mg/100g
Vitamin A 380 IU/100g
Vitamin B 2.6mg/ 100g

SMALL VEGETARIAN STUFED PIZZA NUTRITIONAL FACTS
Serving Size: 7 oz. (198g)
Servings Per Contained: 6
AMOUNT PER SERVING
CALORIES 470
CALORIES FROM FAT 170
__________________________________________________________________
% DAILY VALUES*
TOTAL FAT 19g 29%
SATURATED FAT 10g 50%
CHOLESTEROL 40mg 13%
SODIUM 770mg 32%
TOTAL CARBOHYDRATES 55g 18%
DIETARY FIBER 6g 24%
SUGAR 8g
PROTEIN 21g
_________________________________________________________________
VITAMIN A: 15%
VITAMIN C: 8%
CALCIUM: 37%
IRON: 9%

To keep all of the Giordano's pizza information in one place, I have copied and pasted the information from one of the earlier replies (Reply 23) in this thread:

Cheese Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes), Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose)
 
Spinach Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, olive, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes), Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose), Spinach.
 
Veggie Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes),  Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose), Onions, Green Pepper, Mushrooms.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2014, 06:23:02 PM »
Nate,

I recall that information very well, and when I went back today to revisit that information, I saw that my copy was all marked up with calculations. So, I obviously spent a lot of time analyzing the information. I would have to go back and reread the thread to re-familiarize myself with what I did and what I knew at the time, but I suspect that I couldn't finish the analysis because of insufficient information. In part, I think that part of the problem was that the Giordano's nutritional information was internal information and not in the form as recommended for "Nutrition Facts" by the FDA. However. the information itself looks to be quite good. But since the new information you provided at the start of this thread seems to be different than what was given to me back in 2009, it might not make sense to try to reverse engineer the old recipes in light of the changes. Having current Nutrition Facts, which may or may not exist at Giordano's, would be what I would like to see. As an example, one of the changes I noted in the new information is the use of margarine. At first, I thought that the margarine might be incorporated in the flour in the course of making the dough. However, it now occurs to me that the margarine might be what is used to grease the pans. In the new nutritional information you provided, the margarine is in the right place in the pecking order even if it is used to grease the pans. It is hard to know for sure because the ingredients information you provided is awkwardly written.

Peter

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2014, 10:22:39 AM »
I think that Ryan and Nate, and maybe other members who have been following the Giordano reverse engineering and cloning effort, might find the following of interest.

About a week ago, I decided to send an email to Giordano's. The first thing I wanted to know was whether the frozen Giordano's stuffed pizzas were made using the same ingredients as used by Giordano's in their stores. I knew that the frozen pizzas were partially baked but, in my opinion, that didn't mean that the same ingredients couldn't be used to make the frozen partially baked pizzas. In my email, I also tried to elicit more information about the flour used to make the stuffed pizzas. So, I asked whether the flour was bleached or bromated or whether it was just a regular flour with enrichment, malting, etc. What I was specifically trying to find out was whether Giordano's was using an unbleached, nonbromated, unenriched, unmalted flour, which was a reasonable reading of the ingredients list that Nate originally posted.  About two days later, I received the following reply:

Giordano’s is in the process of having our menu items analyzed for their nutritional values!  Once we have them, so will you!  They’ll be listed on Giordano’s website and as hand-out(s) in our restaurant locations! In the meantime, I’ve enclosed some information regarding Allergy Alerts & Dietary Restrictions for your review (See Attached).
 
Please Note:    All of Giordano’s Pizzas (including our “Ship a Pizza”) are made using the same ingredients.  And as requested, I’ve also  provided the following information:
 
DOUGH/CRUST
Giordano’s stuffed & thin-crust pizza dough contains rice flour, yeast, soy vegetable oil, water, sugar and salt.
 
MADE-WITHOUT-GLUTEN DOUGH/CRUST

Giordano’s Gluten-Free pizza dough contains rice flour, egg whites, xanthan gum, alginate guar gum, water and salt.

I hope I was able to answer your question.
Thank you for contacting Giordano’s!


Apart from the fact that I did not specifically ask about the ingredients for Giordano's stuffed pizza crust, or anything about their gluten-free crust, and that the Allergy Alerts & Dietary Restrictions attachment was not directed to their pizzas, but rather to other foods sold by Giordano's, what I found most curious was the recitation of rice flour as the flour used in their stuffed and thin crust pizza dough. I knew that couldn't be right. The main reason is that rice flour is a gluten-free flour. So, there can be very little, if any, strength imparted to the dough without adding other ingredients, as is commonly done when rice flour is used to make gluten-free foods. Those other ingredients typically include xanthan gum, guar gum and/or carrageenan, tapioca, etc.

Shortly after receiving the above reply, I sent back a response in which I said that rice flour couldn't be right, and that they must have meant wheat flour. Although Giordano's says that they respond to emails within 72 hours, I have not yet received another reply, and more than 72 hours have passed since my followup email. I suspect that I may have caused them to revisit what they apparently have been telling people about their pizzas.

Today, as an afterthought, I decided to do some research to see if, in fact, Giordano's has been telling others that they use rice flour in their stuffed and thin crust pizza dough. And, indeed, they have been doing that. In my search, I found a Muslim website, at http://www.muslimconsumergroup.com/question_answer.php?cat=4&panna=5, that is directed to matters concerning Halal foods. At the risk of oversimplification, Halal foods are foods that must comply with Islamic dietary laws before they can be eaten. While not relevant to what we are trying to do here, those who wish to know more about Halal foods can read about them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halal.

What was most noteworthy about what I found at the abovementioned Halal website was a response that had been sent to a member of that website by Giordano's this past September 24 (2013):

september 24,2013 Giordano’s Famous Stuffed Cheese Pizza features the following three (3) cheeses: Mozzarella, Parmesan and Romano. Please Note: Giordano’s uses Mozzarella cheese that is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes), which originate in microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources; whereas, the Parmesan and Romano cheeses may contain rennets (enzymes) that originate in animal sources. Giordano’s Thin Crust Cheese Pizza features only Mozzarella Cheese, which is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes) originating in either microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources. Giordano’s pizza dough contains rice flour, yeast, soy vegetable oil, water, sugar and salt. The crust (dough) of Giordano’s Stuffed Pizza is made with 100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil. The margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans is also a certified koshered margarine. Giordano’s Pizza Sauce for both the stuffed pizza and the thin crust, along with our Marinara Sauce (pasta), is not by made from any animal by-products. I hope I was able to answer your question. Thank you for contacting Giordano’s! Customer Service www.giordanos.com

Aside from the fact that the above quoted material again mentions rice flour, what is perhaps more significant at the moment is that there is a discussion of the use of margarine in the Giordano's pizza pans. I am now fairly confident that the margarine is only used in the pans, and that the fat used in the dough itself is soybean oil. The failure to list margarine in the dough ingredients list referenced above confirms this. Secondly, there is more soybean oil by weight than margarine. Of course, some of the margarine will migrate into the crust during baking, but until we see the Giordano's nutrition information, which will be a big step forward in my opinion, we won't be able to do an analysis to see if there is a way of determining how much margarine is used. As I mentioned before, I believe that Giordano's is using a basic margarine product. So, what I will be interested in seeing is if there are any reported Trans Fat numbers that would be a way of determining how much margarine is used. Of course, the amount of margarine doesn't answer all of our questions but knowing the amount of margarine might help us determine from the Giordano's nutrition information how much soybean oil is used in the Giordano's dough (since both soybean oil and margarine have Total Fats and Sat Fats, with only the margarine having Trans Fats).

Peter



Offline pythonic

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2014, 04:01:57 PM »
I think that Ryan and Nate, and maybe other members who have been following the Giordano reverse engineering and cloning effort, might find the following of interest.

About a week ago, I decided to send an email to Giordano's. The first thing I wanted to know was whether the frozen Giordano's stuffed pizzas were made using the same ingredients as used by Giordano's in their stores. I knew that the frozen pizzas were partially baked but, in my opinion, that didn't mean that the same ingredients couldn't be used to make the frozen partially baked pizzas. In my email, I also tried to elicit more information about the flour used to make the stuffed pizzas. So, I asked whether the flour was bleached or bromated or whether it was just a regular flour with enrichment, malting, etc. What I was specifically trying to find out was whether Giordano's was using an unbleached, nonbromated, unenriched, unmalted flour, which was a reasonable reading of the ingredients list that Nate originally posted.  About two days later, I received the following reply:

Giordano’s is in the process of having our menu items analyzed for their nutritional values!  Once we have them, so will you!  They’ll be listed on Giordano’s website and as hand-out(s) in our restaurant locations! In the meantime, I’ve enclosed some information regarding Allergy Alerts & Dietary Restrictions for your review (See Attached).
 
Please Note:    All of Giordano’s Pizzas (including our “Ship a Pizza”) are made using the same ingredients.  And as requested, I’ve also  provided the following information:
 
DOUGH/CRUST
Giordano’s stuffed & thin-crust pizza dough contains rice flour, yeast, soy vegetable oil, water, sugar and salt.
 
MADE-WITHOUT-GLUTEN DOUGH/CRUST

Giordano’s Gluten-Free pizza dough contains rice flour, egg whites, xanthan gum, alginate guar gum, water and salt.

I hope I was able to answer your question.
Thank you for contacting Giordano’s!


Apart from the fact that I did not specifically ask about the ingredients for Giordano's stuffed pizza crust, or anything about their gluten-free crust, and that the Allergy Alerts & Dietary Restrictions attachment was not directed to their pizzas, but rather to other foods sold by Giordano's, what I found most curious was the recitation of rice flour as the flour used in their stuffed and thin crust pizza dough. I knew that couldn't be right. The main reason is that rice flour is a gluten-free flour. So, there can be very little, if any, strength imparted to the dough without adding other ingredients, as is commonly done when rice flour is used to make gluten-free foods. Those other ingredients typically include xanthan gum, guar gum and/or carrageenan, tapioca, etc.

Shortly after receiving the above reply, I sent back a response in which I said that rice flour couldn't be right, and that they must have meant wheat flour. Although Giordano's says that they respond to emails within 72 hours, I have not yet received another reply, and more than 72 hours have passed since my followup email. I suspect that I may have caused them to revisit what they apparently have been telling people about their pizzas.

Today, as an afterthought, I decided to do some research to see if, in fact, Giordano's has been telling others that they use rice flour in their stuffed and thin crust pizza dough. And, indeed, they have been doing that. In my search, I found a Muslim website, at http://www.muslimconsumergroup.com/question_answer.php?cat=4&panna=5, that is directed to matters concerning Halal foods. At the risk of oversimplification, Halal foods are foods that must comply with Islamic dietary laws before they can be eaten. While not relevant to what we are trying to do here, those who wish to know more about Halal foods can read about them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halal.

What was most noteworthy about what I found at the abovementioned Halal website was a response that had been sent to a member of that website by Giordano's this past September 24 (2013):

september 24,2013 Giordano’s Famous Stuffed Cheese Pizza features the following three (3) cheeses: Mozzarella, Parmesan and Romano. Please Note: Giordano’s uses Mozzarella cheese that is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes), which originate in microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources; whereas, the Parmesan and Romano cheeses may contain rennets (enzymes) that originate in animal sources. Giordano’s Thin Crust Cheese Pizza features only Mozzarella Cheese, which is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes) originating in either microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources. Giordano’s pizza dough contains rice flour, yeast, soy vegetable oil, water, sugar and salt. The crust (dough) of Giordano’s Stuffed Pizza is made with 100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil. The margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans is also a certified koshered margarine. Giordano’s Pizza Sauce for both the stuffed pizza and the thin crust, along with our Marinara Sauce (pasta), is not by made from any animal by-products. I hope I was able to answer your question. Thank you for contacting Giordano’s! Customer Service www.giordanos.com

Aside from the fact that the above quoted material again mentions rice flour, what is perhaps more significant at the moment is that there is a discussion of the use of margarine in the Giordano's pizza pans. I am now fairly confident that the margarine is only used in the pans, and that the fat used in the dough itself is soybean oil. The failure to list margarine in the dough ingredients list referenced above confirms this. Secondly, there is more soybean oil by weight than margarine. Of course, some of the margarine will migrate into the crust during baking, but until we see the Giordano's nutrition information, which will be a big step forward in my opinion, we won't be able to do an analysis to see if there is a way of determining how much margarine is used. As I mentioned before, I believe that Giordano's is using a basic margarine product. So, what I will be interested in seeing is if there are any reported Trans Fat numbers that would be a way of determining how much margarine is used. Of course, the amount of margarine doesn't answer all of our questions but knowing the amount of margarine might help us determine from the Giordano's nutrition information how much soybean oil is used in the Giordano's dough (since both soybean oil and margarine have Total Fats and Sat Fats, with only the margarine having Trans Fats).

Peter


Peter,

Thank you for continuing to research this pizza.  You are a huge resource to this website.  Rice flour huh?  Hmmmm.  What would happen if I made a pizza using 100% rice flour?  What would the texture be?  Why must it be wheat?  Giordano's crust has a one of a kind texture and taste to it.  Could it actually be rice flour?


Nate
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 04:05:52 PM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline dmckean44

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2014, 05:29:55 PM »
There would be no gluten so the dough wouldn't stretch. They make a few different types of rice flour and it would be important to know which kind because they behave differently.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2014, 06:01:58 PM »
Rice flour huh?  Hmmmm.  What would happen if I made a pizza using 100% rice flour?  What would the texture be?  Why must it be wheat?  Giordano's crust has a one of a kind texture and taste to it.  Could it actually be rice flour?

Nate,

If you recall the videos of the workers at Giordano's putting dough balls through the dough rollers and tossing skins across the room to workers at the tail end of the assembly operation, the reason they can do that is because of gluten, as Dave noted. The gluten is the glue that holds the dough together and gives it its extensibility and elasticity. In wheat flour, gluten is formed by the proteins glutenin and gliadin. Those proteins are formed into gluten when water or other liquid is added to the flour and agitated by hand or by machine. Rice flour is gluten free, and is the reason why it is so often used to make gluten-free foods. But, even then, a bunch of other things have to be used with the rice flour to allow it to hold together so that it can be pressed into pans or rolled out. In the Giordano's ingredients list you posted, the water, soybean oil, yeast, sugar and salt cannot alone transform rice flour so that the dough formed therefrom can be put through dough rollers to form skins and thereafter be tossed and spun.

As you will note from the label information and Nutrition Facts for rice flour at Bob's Red Mill at http://www.bobsredmill.com/organic-white-rice-flour.html, and also the nutrition information for rice flour as given at the NutritionData.Self website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5726/2, you will see that rice flour contains protein. But it is not the right kind of protein.

I suspect that the person at Giordano's who prepared the ingredients list you posted got his or her wires crossed and quite possibly got confused and listed the wrong kind of flour. It will be interesting to see if I hear back from them.

BTW, earlier today I went back to the Giordano's nutrition information that you reproduced in Reply 14 to see if any Trans Fats were noted. No Trans Fats were noted. Back when that information was assembled, Trans Fats were not in the spotlight. Total Fats and Sat Fats, and especially the Sat Fats, were in the spotlight. As I have reported elsewhere on the forum, it is getting harder and harder to find margarine products that have Trans Fats. They exist at the professional baker's level, as Google searches will show you, but not at the retail level. Even the commercial margarine products are showing reduced Trans Fats. When I was at my local supermarket the other day, the margarine products that came closest to what Giordano's is using are inexpensive products like Fleischmann's, Blue Bonnet and Parkay. And even those products are not technically margarines because they do not have at least 80% oil, as the law requires.

Peter







 

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