Author Topic: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)  (Read 7259 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2336
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2014, 08:22:48 PM »
Nate,

If you recall the videos of the workers at Giordano's putting dough balls through the dough rollers and tossing skins across the room to workers at the tail end of the assembly operation, the reason they can do that is because of gluten, as Dave noted. The gluten is the glue that holds the dough together and gives it its extensibility and elasticity. In wheat flour, gluten is formed by the proteins glutenin and gliadin. Those proteins are formed into gluten when water or other liquid is added to the flour and agitated by hand or by machine. Rice flour is gluten free, and is the reason why it is so often used to make gluten-free foods. But, even then, a bunch of other things have to be used with the rice flour to allow it to hold together so that it can be pressed into pans or rolled out. In the Giordano's ingredients list you posted, the water, soybean oil, yeast, sugar and salt cannot alone transform rice flour so that the dough formed therefrom can be put through dough rollers to form skins and thereafter be tossed and spun.

As you will note from the label information and Nutrition Facts for rice flour at Bob's Red Mill at http://www.bobsredmill.com/organic-white-rice-flour.html, and also the nutrition information for rice flour as given at the NutritionData.Self website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5726/2, you will see that rice flour contains protein. But it is not the right kind of protein.

I suspect that the person at Giordano's who prepared the ingredients list you posted got his or her wires crossed and quite possibly got confused and listed the wrong kind of flour. It will be interesting to see if I hear back from them.

BTW, earlier today I went back to the Giordano's nutrition information that you reproduced in Reply 14 to see if any Trans Fats were noted. No Trans Fats were noted. Back when that information was assembled, Trans Fats were not in the spotlight. Total Fats and Sat Fats, and especially the Sat Fats, were in the spotlight. As I have reported elsewhere on the forum, it is getting harder and harder to find margarine products that have Trans Fats. They exist at the professional baker's level, as Google searches will show you, but not at the retail level. Even the commercial margarine products are showing reduced Trans Fats. When I was at my local supermarket the other day, the margarine products that came closest to what Giordano's is using are inexpensive products like Fleischmann's, Blue Bonnet and Parkay. And even those products are not technically margarines because they do not have at least 80% oil, as the law requires.

Peter

They are using a Kosher margarine per the ingredients above.  I can now buy stuff at RD so I will take a look at their commercial margarine. 

In vids Giordanos is seen spinning and tossing dough around.  The dough bakes super dry though.  Should we take water out of the equation right and focus on using a lot more oil?  Giordanos crust is like a dry croissant.  I spoke to an employee and he confirmed the dough was laminated (made like puff pastry) before it arrived to the stores.

Nate
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 08:35:53 PM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22435
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2014, 10:29:52 AM »
Nate,

Based on the information you provided for the Giordano's heart shaped pizza earlier in this thread, the Giordano's dough comprises wheat flour, water, oil (soybean oil), sugar, salt and yeast. Whether the sugar, salt and yeast are in the right pecking order by weight is hard to say. I have seen too many examples of sloppiness on Giordano's part to put a great deal of stock on what they report. Since they were under no compulsion to comply with FDA rules and regulations relating to labeling and the like, that might have been the reason for their sloppiness. But if we assume that Giordano's really meant wheat flour instead of rice flour in their recent email to me, we end up with the same ingredients list as above but in a different (and clearly erroneous) pecking order.

I should mention at this point that Ryan was very perceptive in noting in the "definitive" Giordano's thread, at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25774.msg274244/topicseen.html#msg274244, that the earlier information that Giordano's provided to me (as reproduced in Reply 14 in this thread) did not list sugar as an ingredient for the dough. At the time that I tried to decipher that information, the sugar component gave me a lot of trouble. The Giordano's nutrition information specified 9 x 6 = 54 grams of Sugars. If there was no sugar in the dough, where did those Sugars come from? My first thought was that all of those Sugars (natural sugars) came from the tomatoes used to make the sauce. And if no sugar was added to the sauce, and if those tomatoes were something like the Escalon 6-in-1s or the Stanislaus Tomato Magic crushed tomatoes, I calculated that it would have taken close to 4 cups of those tomatoes to equal 54 grams. That would have been for a small (10") cheese pizza-- clearly way out of line. I then examined the lactose Sugars in the cheese, and I even thought about the possibilities of some of the Sugars coming from caramelization during baking. But I still was unable to account for all 54 grams of Sugars. As it later turned out, I learned that most mozzarella cheeses contain little lactose, as I discussed recently at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29016.msg292198/topicseen.html#msg292198. So, ruling lactose out, it would be reasonable to conclude that Giordano's simply forgot to include sugar in the ingredients list for the Giordano's dough that it provided to me several years ago. Either that, or it concluded that "spices" included sugar (which, under FDA guidelines, they do not). Maybe just more sloppiness.

To answer more directly the question that you posed to me in your last post, it is hard to say how much water should be used. But, I do recall from a post by BTB on a Giordano's pizza that he had in Florida that the crust was dry. If that translates into using less water, then the difference has to be made up by the other ingredients so that the total dough weight is correct. We may have to wait for the new nutrition information that Giordano's is having prepared in order to get a better handle on the amounts of ingredients that Giordano's uses. But in the meantime I am not holding my breath. I will have to see the actual information itself to know how useful it will be to us. There are new laws on the books at the national level regarding nutrition information of restaurants of certain size, and if that information is what Giordano's has in mind it may not help us with what we are trying to do. The most useful information will be along the lines of the current Nutrition Facts.

As for what the employee at Giordano's told you about pre-laminating the dough before being distributed to their stores, I have seen nothing--including all of the Giordano's videos that I have seen-- to suggest any such lamination. Everything I have seen points to flattening round dough balls, dusting them with flour, and putting them through dough rollers. Maybe the employee has another type of pizza in mind.

Peter

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2336
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2014, 12:41:00 PM »
Nate,

Based on the information you provided for the Giordano's heart shaped pizza earlier in this thread, the Giordano's dough comprises wheat flour, water, oil (soybean oil), sugar, salt and yeast. Whether the sugar, salt and yeast are in the right pecking order by weight is hard to say. I have seen too many examples of sloppiness on Giordano's part to put a great deal of stock on what they report. Since they were under no compulsion to comply with FDA rules and regulations relating to labeling and the like, that might have been the reason for their sloppiness. But if we assume that Giordano's really meant wheat flour instead of rice flour in their recent email to me, we end up with the same ingredients list as above but in a different (and clearly erroneous) pecking order.

I should mention at this point that Ryan was very perceptive in noting in the "definitive" Giordano's thread, at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25774.msg274244/topicseen.html#msg274244, that the earlier information that Giordano's provided to me (as reproduced in Reply 14 in this thread) did not list sugar as an ingredient for the dough. At the time that I tried to decipher that information, the sugar component gave me a lot of trouble. The Giordano's nutrition information specified 9 x 6 = 54 grams of Sugars. If there was no sugar in the dough, where did those Sugars come from? My first thought was that all of those Sugars (natural sugars) came from the tomatoes used to make the sauce. And if no sugar was added to the sauce, and if those tomatoes were something like the Escalon 6-in-1s or the Stanislaus Tomato Magic crushed tomatoes, I calculated that it would have taken close to 4 cups of those tomatoes to equal 54 grams. That would have been for a small (10") cheese pizza-- clearly way out of line. I then examined the lactose Sugars in the cheese, and I even thought about the possibilities of some of the Sugars coming from caramelization during baking. But I still was unable to account for all 54 grams of Sugars. As it later turned out, I learned that most mozzarella cheeses contain little lactose, as I discussed recently at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29016.msg292198/topicseen.html#msg292198. So, ruling lactose out, it would be reasonable to conclude that Giordano's simply forgot to include sugar in the ingredients list for the Giordano's dough that it provided to me several years ago. Either that, or it concluded that "spices" included sugar (which, under FDA guidelines, they do not). Maybe just more sloppiness.

To answer more directly the question that you posed to me in your last post, it is hard to say how much water should be used. But, I do recall from a post by BTB on a Giordano's pizza that he had in Florida that the crust was dry. If that translates into using less water, then the difference has to be made up by the other ingredients so that the total dough weight is correct. We may have to wait for the new nutrition information that Giordano's is having prepared in order to get a better handle on the amounts of ingredients that Giordano's uses. But in the meantime I am not holding my breath. I will have to see the actual information itself to know how useful it will be to us. There are new laws on the books at the national level regarding nutrition information of restaurants of certain size, and if that information is what Giordano's has in mind it may not help us with what we are trying to do. The most useful information will be along the lines of the current Nutrition Facts.

As for what the employee at Giordano's told you about pre-laminating the dough before being distributed to their stores, I have seen nothing--including all of the Giordano's videos that I have seen-- to suggest any such lamination. Everything I have seen points to flattening round dough balls, dusting them with flour, and putting them through dough rollers. Maybe the employee has another type of pizza in mind.

Peter

Peter,

Perhaps lamination was the wrong word.  Croissant dough is what I meant (like puff pastry but they coat with vegetable oil instead of butter so it's less rich and dryer).  Then it is balled up and shipped to Giordanos.   Then it is sheeted and all of those layers are still there.  You know how puff pastry is made right?
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22435
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2014, 05:54:10 PM »
Peter,

Perhaps lamination was the wrong word.  Croissant dough is what I meant (like puff pastry but they coat with vegetable oil instead of butter so it's less rich and dryer).  Then it is balled up and shipped to Giordanos.   Then it is sheeted and all of those layers are still there.  You know how puff pastry is made right?
Nate,

I hear you but I find it hard to believe that at the Giordano's Chicago-area commissary (Americana Foods Inc) they form the dough into layers with soybean oil separating them, and then form the dough into dough balls for their satellite stores. Also, what about the Giordano's franchisees in places like Florida that, as best I know, have no commissaries? Will they become their own mini-commissaries to be able to make their dough with the same quality and consistency and reliability as the Chicago-area stores?

I would think that the most direct approach would be to add the soybean oil slowly to the dry dough ingredients and then add the water and knead for the briefist period possible and then divide and scale into individual dough balls. In this vein, member BTB previously reported at Reply 120 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg72216.html#msg72216 that he observed yellow specks in the skins formed at a Florida Giordano's location. As you will see from the posts that followed, there was some speculation about how the yellow specks or blobs were formed in the skins (and also the dough balls), but we never did quite get an explanation as to the actual cause.

On a somewhat related matter, one of the things that struck me as curious was the reference to the margarine used to make the Giordano's heart shaped pizza with pepperoni as a "Kosher" margarine. As I understand it, for a margarine product to be Kosher (or Kosher pareve or Kosher parve) it cannot contain milk or meat products or their derivatives. Also, as I understand it, the production of Kosher margarine has to be under the supervision of rabbis to be sure that no milk products touch the equipment used to make the margarine. If you go back to the ingredients list that you posted earlier in this thread, or to Ed's version, you will see that one of the ingredients for the margarine is whey solids. Whey solids are a milk derivative. Is this another Giordano's faux pas or mistake? Or did they decide to call the margarine Kosher because it includes Kosher salt? I would say the former was intended since the material I quoted from the Muslim website (see Reply 16) mentioned that the margarine was certified Koshered. But even if we assume that the Giordano's margarine product is Kosher certified, the fact that the heart shaped Giordano's pizza has meat (pepperoni) makes tbe pizza non-Kosher: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071102202644AAgdakg.

Adding to the above, unless the Giordano's "Kosher" margarine includes at least 80% oil, it is not technically "margarine". For your additional information, Fleischmann's makes an unsalted margarine spread that contains no dairy products and is Kosher pareve (see bottom right at http://www.fleischmanns.com/our-spreads.jsp). However, you are unlikely to find it in most supermarkets. As for the "buttery" crust flavor that I heard about in one of the Giordano's videos, that could be the natural and artificial flavors used in the Giordano's margarine product.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 09:43:57 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2336
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2014, 08:51:48 PM »
Nate,

I hear you but I find it hard to believe that at the Giordano's Chicago-area commissary (Americana Foods Inc) they form the dough into layers with soybean oil separating them, and then form the dough into dough balls for their satellite stores. Also, what about the Giordano's franchisees in places like Florida that, as best I know, have no commissaries? Will they become their own mini-commissaries to be able to make their dough with the same quality and consistency and reliability as the Chicago-area stores?

I would think that the most direct approach would be to add the soybean oil slowly to the dry dough ingredients and then add the water and knead for the briefist period possible and then divide and scale into individual dough balls. In this vein, member BTB previously reported at Reply 120 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg72216.html#msg72216 that he observed yellow specks in the skins formed at a Florida Giordano's location. As you will see from the posts that followed, there was some speculation about how the yellow specks or blobs were formed in the skins (and also the dough balls), but we never did quite get an explanation as to the actual cause.

On a somewhat related matter, one of the things that struck me as curious was the reference to the margarine used to make the Giordano's heart shaped pizza with pepperoni as a "Kosher" margarine. As I understand it, for a margarine product to be Kosher (or Kosher pareve or Kosher parve) it cannot contain milk or meat products or their derivatives. Also, as I understand it, the production of Kosher margarine has to be under the supervision of rabbis to be sure that no milk products touch the equipment used to make the margarine. If you go back to the ingredients list that you posted earlier in this thread, or to Ed's version, you will see that one of the ingredients for the margarine is whey solids. Whey solids are a milk derivative. Is this another Giordano's faux pas or mistake? Or did they decide to call the margarine Kosher because it includes Kosher salt? I would say the former was intended since the material I quoted from the Muslim website (see Reply 16) mentioned that the margarine was certified Kosherized. But even if we assume that the Giordano's margarine product is Kosher certified, the fact that the heart shaped Giordano's pizza has meat (pepperoni) makes tbe pizza non-Kosher: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071102202644AAgdakg.

Adding to the abovel, unless the Giordano's "Kosher" margarine includes at least 80% oil, it is not technically "margarine". For your additional information, Fleischmann's makes an unsalted margarine spread that contains no dairy products and is Kosher pareve (see bottom right at http://www.fleischmanns.com/our-spreads.jsp). However, you are unlikely to find it in most supermarkets. As for the "buttery" crust flavor that I heard about in one of the Giordano's videos, that could be the natural and artificial flavors used in the Giordano's margarine product.

Peter


Peter,

They could possibly be using something called hard fats.  Tom Lehman said this will cause the same layering effect.  Would the hard fats show up under soybean oil though?  All I know is the crust has many dry layers and I have not been able to produce it using straight oil.  That is why I really think there is some folding going on when it's made. Who said FL was making their own dough? 

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Garvey

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
  • I wish could have pizza every day.
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2014, 12:10:05 AM »
Maybe they mean "kosher" like when used in dill pickles, i.e., contains garlic.

 :-D

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22629
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2014, 09:30:24 AM »
I am also curious about Giordano's crust.  Didn't Edwardo's start out as Edward Jacobson's split from the Broglio brothers (then the owners of Giordano's and went out on his own in 1978)?  If so, then I guess this might be Edwardo's ingredient list for the crust.  http://featuredfoods.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/a-store/EDW-01.shtml?L+scstore+rcnr0335edwardoffc291c2+1227616016  I wonder if that ingredient list is anything like Giordano's ingredient list.  I really don't understand the whole relationship between Giordano's, Nancy's and Edwardo's.

I am also curious about the margarine type that is used in dough (if any is) or the type used in the pans Giordano's uses.  I was reading about the Blitz method of baking since Tom Lehmann posted about that on Zoe's thread.  I would not think home pizza makers would have access to that type of margarine that could make flaky layers, but do think many bakeries and other businesses do have access to those fat flakes or margarine that could produce a layered flaky crust.  I would think there are many types of baking margarine something like these for commercial businesses.  https://www.bungenorthamerica.com/products/categories/57-margarines-and-buttery-spreads and https://www.bungenorthamerica.com/products/categories/41-specialty-shortenings  I have been trying to purchase some of those flakes flakes or commercial margarine with no luck yet.

Years ago when Giordano's started I would not think people would have been that concerned about hydrogenated fats, but there are alternate products now.  Some are at Caravan foods and other places.
 
This are some photos of dough using the Blitz method with fat flakes.

I did email Giordano's with some questions.  I will wait and see if they reply.

Norma
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 09:32:20 AM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22435
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2014, 11:10:49 AM »
They could possibly be using something called hard fats.  Tom Lehman said this will cause the same layering effect.  Would the hard fats show up under soybean oil though?  All I know is the crust has many dry layers and I have not been able to produce it using straight oil.  That is why I really think there is some folding going on when it's made. Who said FL was making their own dough? 

Nate
Nate,

I believe that you are referring to Tom Lehmann's post on the use of hard fat flakes (sometimes called flake oil) in the preparation of pizza doughs at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29524.msg298324.html#msg298324.

I will begin my response by saying that I have looked at the labels of hundreds of margarine and margarine-like products and recipes and formulations using such products, and I am very confident based on the ingredients list that you provided earlier in this thread that Giordano's is using either margarine or a margarine-like product. Moreover, in the material I quoted from the earlier mentioned Muslim website, Giordano's said the following: The margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans is also a certified koshered margarine. To add to this, elsewhere on the forum, and also in Giordano's videos, what was put in the pans was clearly a soft margarine or margarine-like product (and maybe even butter in some Giordano's stores). See, for example, the first photo in Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8361.msg85140.html#msg85140. That photo happened to have been taken at the Giordano's store in Tampa, Florida which, according to the most recent Giordano's store locator at http://giordanos.com/our-locations/, apparently no longer exists or is no longer a Giordano's franchisee.

However, to be on the safe side with my conclusion as I believe is supported by the above facts, I decided to do some online research on fat flakes. I found a handful of suppliers of such products. I also found references to the use of fat flakes for pizza dough production. Examples include the fat flakes produced by Bunge (https://www.bungenorthamerica.com/products/categories/53-flaked-shortenings) that Norma mentioned in her last post, but also fat flakes produced by Cargill (http://www.cargillfoods.com/na/en/products/oils-shortenings/Products/flakes/index.jsp). There were also a few much smaller sources of fat flakes but none of the sites I visited provided information on the composition of their fat flake products. However, by expanding my search, I was able to find an isolated spec for a Cargill partially hydrogenated soybean fat flake product at http://www.sfm.state.or.us/CR2K_SubDB/MSDS/PHSBO_SOYBEAN_OIL_FLAKES.PDF. That product, which appears in the product listing in the Cargill link referenced above, contains only partially hydrogenated soybean oil, which is one of the ingredients of the Giordano's margarine product, and citric acid. There is no listing of liquid soybean oil, emulsifiers (such as the diglycerides), water, salt, lecithin, flavors or color agents. What this tells me is that if Giordano's is using a fat flake product, their ingredients list would reflect that.

As for the Giordano's Florida locations and whether they make their own dough, I do not have personal knowledge of where they get their dough. However, as noted in the Giordano's locator list referenced above, there are currently only three Giordano's stores in Florida. In my opinion, that is too small a number of stores to justify a commissary. The rest of the Giordano's stores--41 in number--are all in the Chicago area. With that number of stores, a commissary business model makes great sense. The question of where the Giordano's Florida stores get their dough is not a new one. In a post that I entered elsewhere in one of the other Giordano's threads, I touched upon this matter by suggesting that the Florida stores might have been making their own dough or it was being sources by an external, local source. This is quite common for stores of chains that are too far out from their commissary location. For example, Papa Gino's in the northeast has its remote stores make the dough in the stores. All the others get their dough from the PG commissary.

I did find a photo of dough balls in the Tampa Giordano's store at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8361.msg85143.html#msg85143 (second photo down). I have no idea as to how those dough balls got there. All I can tell you, is that in Reply 123 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg72241/topicseen.html#msg72241 member BTB speculated that there was an area of the kitchen at the Tampa location where the dough was possibly made. I would think that a simple telephone call to one of the current Florida locations would answer the question as to where the dough is made.

As an aside, and maybe a helpful one, when I was researching the above sourcing issue in relation to the Florida Giordano's stores, I came across an article that listed some of the creditors of Giordano's that were filing claims in the Giordano's bankruptcy suit. That article contained the following:

According to the filing, major unsecured creditors include Saputo Cheese USA, with a claim of $426,678; Bartlett-based Greco & Sons Inc., with a claim of $213,694; Giordano's Advertising Fund, with a claim of $150,777; Heinz North America, with a claim of $131,801; and Tardella Foods Inc., with a claim of $29,963. (Source: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-02-18/business/ct-biz-0218-giordanos-bankruptcy-20110218_1_bankruptcy-filing-pizza-uno-chicago-grill).

What is noteworthy in the above quote is that Saputo is a major supplier of mozzarella cheeses and that Heinz is the parent company of Escalon--the source of 6-in-1 and like tomato products. Tardella Foods (http://tardellafoods.com/Home_Page.html) is a foodservice company, some of whose "partners" are flour millers (http://tardellafoods.com/Our_Partners.html). Greco and Sons (http://www.grecoandsons.com/) is a foodservice supplier of cheeses and meats (including sausage), among other items. I do not know whether Giordano's is still using these suppliers coming out of the bankruptcy proceedings. However, is common for companies coming out of bankruptcy to go stay with their existing suppliers. Otherwise, their products will be different and be noticed by customers.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:20:30 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22435
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2014, 12:01:40 PM »
Norma,

I believe that I addressed some of your questions in my last post.

As to the Edwardo's ingredients list, there are similarities to the Giordano's current ingredients list. However, I believe that Edwardo's is using the margarine or margarine-like product directly in the dough, and maybe also to grease the pans. Originally I thought that Giordano's was using both soybean oil and their margarine or margarine-like product in their dough, but the reply that I recently got from Giordano's (quoted in Reply 16 in this thread) led me to believe that soybean oil was used in the dough and that the margarine or margarine-like product was used only in the pans. However, since the reply mentioned rice flour instead of wheat flour, it is not entirely clear what Giordano's is actually doing. In the ingredients list that Giordano's provided to me several years ago, and reproduced by Nate in Reply 14 in this thread, the ingredients list was as follows: Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, yeast, salt, spices). However, that list included spices and either intentionally or unintentionally omitted sugar. So, there is still a fair amount of ambiguity.

Maybe you already saw this, but there is an old post on the forum directed to an Edwardo's stuffed sausage pizza at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=294.0. There is also an ingredients list and Nutrition Facts for the Edwardo's stuffed 9" cheese pizza at http://featuredfoods.com/a-store/EDW-08.shtml.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22629
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2014, 12:07:38 PM »
Norma,

I believe that I addressed some of your questions in my last post.

As to the Edwardo's ingredients list, there are similarities to the Giordano's current ingredients list. However, I believe that Edwardo's is using the margarine or margarine-like product directly in the dough, and maybe also to grease the pans. Originally I thought that Giordano's was using both soybean oil and their margarine or margarine-like product in their dough, but the reply that I recently got from Giordano's (quoted in Reply 16 in this thread) led me to believe that soybean oil was used in the dough and that the margarine or margarine-like product was used only in the pans. However, since the reply mentioned rice flour instead of wheat flour, it is not entirely clear what Giordano's is actually doing. In the ingredients list that Giordano's provided to me several years ago, and reproduced by Nate in Reply 14 in this thread, the ingredients list was as follows: Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, yeast, salt, spices). However, that list included spices and either intentionally or unintentionally omitted sugar. So, there is still a fair amount of ambiguity.

Maybe you already saw this, but there is an old post on the forum directed to an Edwardo's stuffed sausage pizza at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=294.0. There is also an ingredients list and Nutrition Facts for the Edwardo's stuffed 9" cheese pizza at http://featuredfoods.com/a-store/EDW-08.shtml.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, you did address some of my questions in your post to Nate.  I did not see Steve's post before.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2336
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2014, 02:01:02 PM »
Norma,

That's intesting stuff with those margarine chunks for Edwardos pizza.  The question though is does the dough have to be sheeted and baked cold like normal pastry dough to get the layers.  Most likely yes.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22435
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2014, 03:09:00 PM »
Nate,

Norma can correct me on this but I do not believe that she said that Edwardo's uses fat flakes.

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22629
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2014, 03:12:59 PM »
Norma,

That's intesting stuff with those margarine chunks for Edwardos pizza.  The question though is does the dough have to be sheeted and baked cold like normal pastry dough to get the layers.  Most likely yes.

Nate

Nate,

I really don't know.  Tom said hard fats flakes are added to the dough in much the same manner as raisins are added to raisin bread dough.  The result is a mixture of fat flakes and dough which imparts the appearance of laminated dough..  You can read Tom Lehmann post at Reply 39 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29524.msg298462.html#msg298462 to see what you think.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22629
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2014, 03:29:51 PM »
Nate,

This is another article from Tom Lehmann.  This is partly what is said.  “There are some types of shortening and margarine (and yes, even butter) that are specially treated (hydrogenated) to give it a very solid characteristic. These are known as “fat flakes”. Fat flakes are designed to retain their integrity (size/shape) when mixed into a dough so when the dough is heated during the baking process the fat flakes melt and the fat is absorbed into the surrounding dough. This helps to create a more open, porous internal cell structure desirable in some instances, such as when dough is processed using high-speed automated equipment in a wholesale or commissary environment. Fat flakes are interesting with a multi functional purpose. They are designed to retain their integrity within the dough and melt during baking as means of creating holes and voids in the baked crust. Some of the new generation of fat flakes are referred to as hydrated fat flakes because they will contain 12 to 15 percent water. This water content is important to the functionality of the flakes. As the fat melts and is absorbed into the surrounding dough, the water is vaporized and creates a much more pronounced and desirable void in the still forming dough structure. To achieve these characteristics fat flakes are used at levels of 10 to 15% of the total dough weight. If you have ever seen a microwave-able pizza or calzone and noticed the open, porous structure of the crust, it is a good bet that fat flakes played an integral role in achieving that structure.   http://www.pizzatoday.com/industry-news/oils-affect-dough/   

This is a patent for a pizza crust with fat flakes. 

http://www.google.nl/patents/US4645673 

I am not saying that Giordano's uses fat flakes though.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 903
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2014, 07:36:43 PM »
Nate,

I really don't know.  Tom said hard fats flakes are added to the dough in much the same manner as raisins are added to raisin bread dough.  The result is a mixture of fat flakes and dough which imparts the appearance of laminated dough..  You can read Tom Lehmann post at Reply 39 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29524.msg298462.html#msg298462 to see what you think.

Hey would you mind a little imput?  To be honest, I've never had a Giordanos, but from looking at the pictures and quickly reading descriptions, the first thing that came to mind was brioche.  But after I thought about it for a day, I thought biscuits.  Anyway, I picked up my "Artisan Breads Everyday" book by Reinhart and turned to the section on best biscuits ever.  I'm not going to copy the ingredients, but I want to relay the process.  First of all, the liquid is kept cold.  For the butter he uses in the recipe he puts in the freezer for 30 minutes to harden.  He then uses a cheese grater to grate the chilled butter into the dry ingredients, tossing them to keep them separated.  He then adds his liquid and mixes with a large spoon until all the flour is hydrated and the dough forms a coarse ball.  Transfer dough to floured work surface and press into a rectangle.  Using a pastry scraper to help lift the dough, fold it over on itself in three section as if folding a letter.  Roll dough out into a rectangle and again fold into thirds.  Repeat the process two more times for a total of 4 roll-outs inall.  From the book:"The folding technique described in the recipe is similar to the lamination method known as blitz.  It creates many thin layers of dough and fat, causing the biscuits to puff up and open like an accordian, creating maximum flakiness".  So, if one makes a biscuit type dough, and adds yeast instead of baking powder and baking soda, I wonder if this method will get you close to what you're looking for.  I think it sounds like fun!!

John

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2336
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2014, 08:15:32 PM »
Nate,

Norma can correct me on this but I do not believe that she said that Edwardo's uses fat flakes.

Peter

Yes I know.  I assumed it was just shaved chunks of frozen margarine.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2336
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2014, 08:49:44 PM »
Hey would you mind a little imput?  To be honest, I've never had a Giordanos, but from looking at the pictures and quickly reading descriptions, the first thing that came to mind was brioche.  But after I thought about it for a day, I thought biscuits.  Anyway, I picked up my "Artisan Breads Everyday" book by Reinhart and turned to the section on best biscuits ever.  I'm not going to copy the ingredients, but I want to relay the process.  First of all, the liquid is kept cold.  For the butter he uses in the recipe he puts in the freezer for 30 minutes to harden.  He then uses a cheese grater to grate the chilled butter into the dry ingredients, tossing them to keep them separated.  He then adds his liquid and mixes with a large spoon until all the flour is hydrated and the dough forms a coarse ball.  Transfer dough to floured work surface and press into a rectangle.  Using a pastry scraper to help lift the dough, fold it over on itself in three section as if folding a letter.  Roll dough out into a rectangle and again fold into thirds.  Repeat the process two more times for a total of 4 roll-outs inall.  From the book:"The folding technique described in the recipe is similar to the lamination method known as blitz.  It creates many thin layers of dough and fat, causing the biscuits to puff up and open like an accordian, creating maximum flakiness".  So, if one makes a biscuit type dough, and adds yeast instead of baking powder and baking soda, I wonder if this method will get you close to what you're looking for.  I think it sounds like fun!!

John

Thanks for your input John.  I've read up on the blitz method as well and want to give it a try.  Giordanos crust is dry and isn't greasy at all so as long as this doesn't produce puff pastry we should be good.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22629
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2014, 10:02:30 PM »
Could Giordano's be using a vegetable margarine like Ventura's Foods Solid Margarine, or something similar?  http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/baking/oils-and-shortenings/shortenings/248049/ventura-foods-solid-margarine-30-1lb

If Giordano's is not using something like margarine in their dough why would BTB report that he observed yellow specks in the skins formed in the Florida Giordano's location.

Norma
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 10:04:16 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2336
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2014, 10:36:33 PM »
Could Giordano's be using a vegetable margarine like Ventura's Foods Solid Margarine, or something similar?  http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/baking/oils-and-shortenings/shortenings/248049/ventura-foods-solid-margarine-30-1lb

If Giordano's is not using something like margarine in their dough why would BTB report that he observed yellow specks in the skins formed in the Florida Giordano's location.

Norma

It very well could be margarine but in order to create layers in the crust the margarine would need to be cold and I've seen their dough boxes sitting out so I don't get it.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22629
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Found Giordanos ingredient list (Peter can you look at this?)
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2014, 10:44:50 PM »
It very well could be margarine but in order to create layers in the crust the margarine would need to be cold and I've seen their dough boxes sitting out so I don't get it.

Nate,

Since I never really had a Giordano's pizza or saw Giordano's making them I sure am not a good one to even post on this thread.  Did you ever see the yellow specks in their dough like BTB previously reported?  I am curious how yellow specks were in the dough skin.  Some margarines do not get really soft at room temperature.  I don't really get it either, but just think about what could be.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!