Author Topic: Perfect pizza  (Read 1797 times)

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Offline nick57

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2014, 12:03:42 AM »
You could write a much more informative article than that yourself Nick.  :chef:
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Offline nick57

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2014, 10:40:02 AM »
I knew trouble was afoot when it was a same day dough, and then the rolling pin sealed the deal. Some of the comments on the article showed that most of the people knew more about pizza making than the writer of the article. Thanks for the compliment, but I know without a doubt a majority of members here could create a better pizza with their eyes closed. Most people don't know the difference between bread dough and pizza dough.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 10:46:17 AM by nick57 »

Offline chasenpse

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2014, 11:59:33 AM »
This article is amusing ;D

I knew trouble was afoot when it was a same day dough, and then the rolling pin sealed the deal. Some of the comments on the article showed that most of the people knew more about pizza making than the writer of the article. Thanks for the compliment, but I know without a doubt a majority of members here could create a better pizza with their eyes closed. Most people don't know the difference between bread dough and pizza dough.

Not to instigate but...isn't pizza just a flat bread? In any case my baguette formula is almost identical to my pizza dough formula except the hydration is at 65% and has 0.2% more salt. Pretty darn close though!
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2014, 12:41:55 PM »
Not to instigate but...isn't pizza just a flat bread?

I think one of the biggest obstacles to learning how to make great pizza is figuring out that pizza is not just a flat bread. Most people seem to see pizza as a flat bread, but it's not. Pizza and bread have more differences than similarities.

Offline chasenpse

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2014, 12:59:29 PM »
I think one of the biggest obstacles to learning how to make great pizza is figuring out that pizza is not just a flat bread. Most people seem to see pizza as a flat bread, but it's not. Pizza and bread have more differences than similarities.

Care to elaborate?
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2014, 02:54:24 PM »
Care to elaborate?

Bread and pizza are not the same thing to me. I don't think I know how to elaborate, because this may be a personal interpretation that just can't make sense to anyone else in the same way it makes sense to me. I'll try, though.

Here's the biggest way pizza and bread are similar: The four most important (or most common) ingredients of both pizza dough and bread dough are flour, water, leavening, and salt (with a few other possible ingredients in many circumstances, beginning with fat and/or sugar). After mixing these ingredients, though, they're different in so many ways that I can't even begin to make an adequate list. Mix time, hydration levels, and dough management come to mind right away. (And the dough management part is huge, because most pizza dough management is nothing like bread dough management.)

I don't know much about bread because I am not a baker. But when I eat pizza, I don't want pizza toppings on top of bread. And when I buy what I consider great pizza, it does not consist of pizza toppings on top of bread. Bread with pizza toppings is not the same thing as pizza. Bread with pizza toppings is something you eat in a school cafeteria or buy in the frozen food section of grocery stores (cheaply), then reheat (in a microwave). It might be labeled "pizza," but I think most of us would agree that it's pretty much not.

Some pizzas are bread with pizza toppings. Like Pizza Hut pan pizza. But I don't think Pizza Hut pan bread would sell very well without the toppings on it. Do you?

How's that for a start? This is all just some jerk's opinion, but I think it makes sense.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2014, 03:11:35 PM »
At least they have the decency to include the word "bread"....... ::)
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Offline nick57

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2014, 04:24:18 PM »
Luv those pics Bob! DiGiorno's has a commercial about their new pizza. If you look at the actors with the slices, the crust looks about a half inch thick. From what I have asked my friends, most seem to agree that is what they think the crust should look like on a good pizza. I guess that is product of too many franchise pizza chains, and not enough true pizza parlors. It's hard to compete against $5 and $10 instant pies.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2014, 04:28:05 PM »
Luv those pics Bob! DiGiorno's has a commercial about their new pizza. If you look at the actors with the slices, the crust looks about a half inch thick. From what I have asked my friends, most seem to agree that is what they think the crust should look like on a good pizza. I guess that is product of too many franchise pizza chains, and not enough true pizza parlors. It's hard to compete against $5 and $10 instant pies.
You got dat right Nick!
But I'll bet all of us have made a "pizza bread" or 2 during our adventure!  :chef:
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Offline nickr

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2014, 04:42:43 PM »
At least they have the decency to include the word "bread"....... ::)

That's an insult to pizza and bread.

Offline nick57

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2014, 05:17:01 PM »
Now this is a real pizza! I think after she takes one bite, he may not be so lucky later.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2014, 05:21:43 PM »
chasenpse (the other Nick ;D),

You might take a look at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29636.msg296906/topicseen.html#msg296906 and Reply 37 referenced therein.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2014, 05:51:11 PM »
Now this is a real pizza! I think after she takes one bite, he may not be so lucky later.
Anchovies are an afrodisiac.  8)

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline nick57

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2014, 05:54:25 PM »
No wonder I don't git lucky on pizza night :-D Anchovies next pie

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2014, 05:56:16 PM »
No wonder I don't git lucky on pizza night :-D Anchovies next pie
Just be careful son...them things are mighty powerful.  >:D

Bob
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Offline nick57

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2014, 07:18:45 PM »
Thanks dad! A little dab will do me.

Offline chasenpse

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2014, 09:38:58 AM »
Bread and pizza are not the same thing to me. I don't think I know how to elaborate, because this may be a personal interpretation that just can't make sense to anyone else in the same way it makes sense to me. I'll try, though.

Here's the biggest way pizza and bread are similar: The four most important (or most common) ingredients of both pizza dough and bread dough are flour, water, leavening, and salt (with a few other possible ingredients in many circumstances, beginning with fat and/or sugar). After mixing these ingredients, though, they're different in so many ways that I can't even begin to make an adequate list. Mix time, hydration levels, and dough management come to mind right away. (And the dough management part is huge, because most pizza dough management is nothing like bread dough management.)

I don't know much about bread because I am not a baker. But when I eat pizza, I don't want pizza toppings on top of bread. And when I buy what I consider great pizza, it does not consist of pizza toppings on top of bread. Bread with pizza toppings is not the same thing as pizza. Bread with pizza toppings is something you eat in a school cafeteria or buy in the frozen food section of grocery stores (cheaply), then reheat (in a microwave). It might be labeled "pizza," but I think most of us would agree that it's pretty much not.

Some pizzas are bread with pizza toppings. Like Pizza Hut pan pizza. But I don't think Pizza Hut pan bread would sell very well without the toppings on it. Do you?

How's that for a start? This is all just some jerk's opinion, but I think it makes sense.
Mix time and hydration can vary just as much in pizza as it does with breads but I do agree with dough management which is definitely important in determining the final product. I think the biggest variance is with shaping and fermentation - usually a pizza dough only ferments once and can be shaped immediately for baking, where bread usually has to bulk ferment, divide, shape, and a second ferment (proof) before baking. Another thing worth pointing out is cold ferments, I haven't seen a bread recipe call for this but it is widely used in pizza making.

To me pizza is a bread that has been simplified and modified to fit it's description - a vessel for all those delicious toppings to bake and meld on top of to create something unique. I think they both start of very similar but after the first ferment they tip their hats to each other and then go off on their separate ways.

chasenpse (the other Nick ;D),

You might take a look at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29636.msg296906/topicseen.html#msg296906 and Reply 37 referenced therein.

Peter
Interesting input, Peter. You spoke about Lehmann's practices vs. Reinhart's and I have to admit I'm more on the Reinhart side. I found that a short 15 minute autolyse after mixing followed by a series of slap and folds/5 minute rests improved my dough's texture and elasticity significantly - stretching my skins became easier and I got more oven spring and a better crumb. Before I started doing this I under mixed and fermented for longer, but always felt my dough was never developed enough, I always felt it didn't stand up to other pictures posted here of these beautiful, smooth, elastic dough balls.
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Offline jkb

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2014, 10:29:08 AM »
This article is amusing ;D

Not to instigate but...isn't pizza just a flat bread? In any case my baguette formula is almost identical to my pizza dough formula except the hydration is at 65% and has 0.2% more salt. Pretty darn close though!

A splash of oil and a pinch of sugar are all that differentiates my pizza dough from my baguette dough.

Offline nickr

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Re: Perfect pizza
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2014, 11:08:17 AM »
 ^^^ with chasenpse. It is merely a bread dough that has been optimized for it's purpose of carrying toppings in it's preferred form factor and available cooking method.

Robertson in Tartine even mentions pinching off some dough from his country bread and making fabulous pizza with it. The pictures back up his claim though I haven't tried it myself.

I also don't feel that it minimizes pizza in any way. If anything, it accentuates the art of making dough.


 

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