Author Topic: Giordanos - Cracking The Code  (Read 4578 times)

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Online pythonic

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Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« on: February 06, 2014, 02:34:59 PM »
After my 1st attempt using AP flour was a miserable fail I decided to try High Gluten Flour since the word on the street is it's what they use.  I still have a long ways to go but the goods certainly outweighed the bads.  I still need to work on my dough thickness and knife skills on top so please bear with me.

Formulation for top and bottom skins

All Trumps - 100% - 800g
Water - 50% - 400g
Soybean Oil - 12% - 96g
Salt - 1.5% - 12g
Sugar - 3.5% - 28g
IDY - 1.5tsp (not sure how much this is)
Total doughball weight - 1350g

Procedure:

Mix all dry in KA with paddle attachment, cut in oil slowly.  Add water and kneaded for 2mins.  Let rise in KA mixer for 3hrs.  Divide into two balls (the top skin was 1/3 of total dough weight). 

Roll out skins and dress pie.  I baked for 25 mins at 465F.  I wanted to go for 35mins but the top was ready (more on this later).

The Good:

The hi gluten performed much better than the AP. 
While cutting the raw dough on top I noticed "layers". 
It was actually edible unlike my 1st attempt.

The Bad:

The dough wasn't dry enough.  But do I need to bake longer or remove some water?
The layers I saw in the raw dough didn't show as good in the cooked dough.  I did see them near the edge of the crust though.  Is the dryness a key factor here maybe?
The bottom and side dough was a bit too thick.
Dough needs to be cold fermented.  All Trumps doesn't have the greatest short ferment flavor.

After thoughts:

Not sure if water amount or bake time played bigger role in dough dryness.  Will need to keep testing.  Oil amount seemed to be perfect.

Nate



« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 09:31:22 PM by pythonic »
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Online pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2014, 02:39:36 PM »
This is how the top layer should look by the way.  It shouldn't even be noticeable.
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Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2014, 08:41:34 PM »
Nice work! I'd eat that! 

BTW, it might be helpful for future reference to combine all of these Giordanos threads into a single thread.  I know that when I'm working on a new style, I find the long threads really, really useful (i.e. those that document the entire process leading up to the current formulations).   :chef:

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2014, 09:09:24 PM »
Nice work! I'd eat that! 

BTW, it might be helpful for future reference to combine all of these Giordanos threads into a single thread.  I know that when I'm working on a new style, I find the long threads really, really useful (i.e. those that document the entire process leading up to the current formulations).   :chef:
I know what you're saying CDN......but I like this way too. Especially since Nate is starting out with an excellent prospect. He's gonna cut to the chase and there won't be no wading through to get to the good.
At least that's what I think is gonna happen.  ;D

Nice work Nate!   8)

Bob
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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2014, 09:29:23 PM »
Thanks you two.  I've been saving this clone for last for many reasons.  First of all there is 3x the flour in this vs Malnatis and then you have the flavor complex and texture.  I just decided to dive in head first and make changes as needed.  The type of flour was the first key, next is hydration and oil content.

Nate
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2014, 09:52:21 PM »
CDN,

It is possible to merge multiple threads into a single thread (by a Moderator) but the posts will be reordered chronologically, with posts from one thread being intermixed with posts from the other threads. Plus it is difficult to merge them such that all of the posts after merging have the same topic headings. The only time that I can recall doing what you suggest was the Mellow Mushroom thread. The dates of the threads were such that I was able to combine them end to end, with no intermixing of posts.

We also have members who like to start new threads and develop them over time rather than add to an existing thread. Those standalone threads tend to be easier for others to follow and digest. Some members simply won't read a thread that they deem to be too long. I see this all the time with new members who are excited to discover that their favorite pizzas have been recreated only to then discover that the threads have thousands of posts. That is usually when they leave the forum and never return.

Peter

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2014, 10:19:21 PM »
 1.5 tsp is approx 5g.  So, .62 yeast.

To dry it up, I would reduce water to 45% to start, and eliminate any veggies until the crust was where I wanted it.  I would also take heat to 450 and cook longer.  Not sure what you did for tomato but potentially drain a little more, it looks wet to me.  Cheese try low moisture part skim since the idea is to work on crust before flavor.

If at 450 it still gets too brown for your liking you can start taking sugar down 1% at a time, if you like sugar where it's at currently it's not un-heard of to bake these at 425.

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2014, 11:10:48 PM »
1.5 tsp is approx 5g.  So, .62 yeast.

To dry it up, I would reduce water to 45% to start, and eliminate any veggies until the crust was where I wanted it.  I would also take heat to 450 and cook longer.  Not sure what you did for tomato but potentially drain a little more, it looks wet to me.  Cheese try low moisture part skim since the idea is to work on crust before flavor.

If at 450 it still gets too brown for your liking you can start taking sugar down 1% at a time, if you like sugar where it's at currently it's not un-heard of to bake these at 425.

Thanks PG.  I went with 465F because that is what my local Giordanos has theirs set for.  Obviously they have way better oven but I needed a starting point.  I will reduce hydration to 45% for my next run and try to drain the tomatoes more.  It was probably from the water I added for my NY sauce.

You're becoming a pretty respected poster around here so I love the feedback.  Please keep on cranking out those beautiful Chicago thins as well.

Nate
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2014, 11:27:57 PM »
Hey Nate
Have you seen how the Americas Test Kitchen crew handles the layering issue on their Chicago pizza?  I'm sure you have...but if not, it's worth checking out.
John

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2014, 11:31:17 PM »
Hey Nate
Have you seen how the Americas Test Kitchen crew handles the layering issue on their Chicago pizza?  I'm sure you have...but if not, it's worth checking out.
John

Yes I even tried it once but it's more like puff pastry.  Giordanos dough isn't greasy and is on the drier side.
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Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2014, 10:38:14 AM »
In regards to the temps, based on the videos it looks like they are using rotators for their ovens.  Honestly, I have never been able to maintain consistent temps in those ovens with swings as much as 20-25 degrees.  There are anywhere between 5-7 metal shelves rotating in the oven. The issue I have with these is the size of the door opening and the fact that you need to leave the door open to see the shelves.  When baking in these you can pack in 30 pizzaís at once (depending on pizza diameter even more).  So, the operators need to leave the door open to see pizzaís as they rotate past the opening.  At times you can see 2 shelves sometimes 3.  Some doors have tempered glass so you can see inside; overtime the glass carbons up making them unusable (some places donít attempt to clean for some reason).  So, the door is open more than one would expect which causes the temperature fluctuations Ė itís a big opening with a lot of heat lose.  Lazy operators will leave the door open all the time. 

During rush hours, you would crank up the heat to maintain adequate temps, still not exactly where it should be. So, if they have it set at 465, and itís a rotator, temps inside the oven during busy times could be lower than the set temperature. It is possible they turn up the heat to compensate.  So, the 465 at home could be higher than the typical rush hour pizza at G. 

The other thing with the rotators is the metal shelf, which is most common in my experience.  The metal does not retain the same heat levels as a stone does for example, stone is far more concentrated and pumps heat at the bottom of the pan faster and longer than metal does Ė so there is another variable.  Some manufactures offer stone shelves, so maybe a good idea to see what they use.

Your ľ or Ĺ inch preheated stone in a home oven will apply more heat to the bottom of the pan than a metal shelf rotator, in my experience.  The Ĺ inch will keep heat longer than the ľ.  So, itís difficult to emulate the rotator in a home oven setting.  Some options are to eliminate the stone and use a ľ inch steel sheet (not aluminum) or use the preheated stone and cook the pan on a screen with the idea that the bottom of the pan in a rotator receives less heat over the duration compared to stone, so to compensate in the home oven the aluminum screen will reduce bottom heat as the pan is not sitting directly on the stone.

If you use a screen, your bottom can cook longer w/o early browning (formulation being equal screen vs stone).  The screen has no impact on crust sides (inward facing crust not pan side) above the sauce line, here itís a question of heat.  If you want a longer bake, you can lower temps and cook on the screen.  This might give you the longer bake time you are seeking and an attempt to emulate a steel rotator oven.

Lots of variables to get at a longer bake time, including reducing sugar levels and even using different types of flours and hydration levels.  What I try to do anyway is if I am working on a dough formulation I concentrate on the crust results only Ė reducing moisture in cheese and sauce until I feel Iíve got the right texture and browning, using only cheese and sauce as toppings. Then, I move to the flavor profile of the crust only, after that Iíll go after the topping flavors with various cheese and sauce quantities, types and moisture levels until I think I have what Iím looking for.  I find anyway that there are far too many variables with everything in the mix, so I do one piece at a time.

Also, based on the videos again, G uses a yellow product to lightly grease the pan - it appears to look like Crisco butter flavor shortening which is what I used on my pans too and I really like it.

Just my 2 centsÖ.

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2014, 11:07:51 AM »
Pizza Garage,

According to the ingredients list shown in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,29776.msg297991.html#msg297991 (you can expand it by clicking on the photo), Giordano's is using a Koshered margarine to grease its pans, at least for the heart shaped pizzas and most likely its other pan pizzas. In the past, I have read reports that the greasing agent is butter, which some Giordano's stores may, in fact, have used at times, but more often the reports (as well as diners) talk about a "buttery" taste. Most margarines, and margarine-like products, contain real and/or artificial flavors. As I understand FDA regulations (see http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=166.110), that means something that conveys a semblane of butter flavor. If it is anything else, like a garlic flavor, the ingredients list is suppose to say that (for an example, see Reply 492 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260041/topicseen.html#msg260041). (The applicable FDA section on flavorings reads as follows: Flavoring substances. If the flavoring ingredients impart to the food a flavor other than in semblance of butter, the characterizing flavor shall be declared as part of the name of the food in accordance with 101.22 of this chapter.).

Shortenings, when used, can also include buttery flavors, although they usually lack many of the other ingredients that go into margarine. These days, with the exception of some brands of shortening that include lard or other meat-derived fats, the trend is toward using formulations that are low, or essentially free, of trans fats (usually below 0.5 grams per serving).

Of course, in a home setting, there are all kinds of retail-level products that one might use to grease their deep-dish pans. Some of them are quite close to what Giordano's uses.

Peter

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2014, 12:22:44 PM »
That's a pretty extensive thread on the Margarine!  I've never been successful using it on pans, so that's just me.  I get an off flavor which I don't care for even at lower heat levels, that being said, I cook on 2" deck ovens so maybe too much heat for the Margarine. The Crisco holds up well and am now working with Crisco butter flavor Saute' and Fry which I prefer over all others (creates an oily butter flavor on the bottom of the crust) which is just crazy good.....in my opinion.

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2014, 09:00:55 AM »
Nate,

Your attempt at a Giordano's stuffed crust pizza looks good to me.  What TF did you use?

I made a stab at mixing an attempt at a Giordano's dough yesterday.  I don't know if you want me to post on your thread or not what happens with that dough.  I used soybean oil for the attempt.  I am not sure if I used a right TF or not and don't quite understand the Deep- Dish Dough Calculator.  I am going to try the dough tomorrow.  I took a couple of photos so far.  I put the soybean oil in the freezer and used cold water.  The dough does have some spots of something in it this morning.  I used different percentages of ingredients than you did.

Norma
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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2014, 08:20:01 PM »
Wow moment for my 3rd attempt.  We are almost there.  The dough is still too thick and a little too moist.  I also have big problems rolling it out (it's way too airy).  I also need to dial down the protein and up the oil a tad.

For the sauce I almost nailed it.  Didn't use the 6 in 1 tomatoes so maybe that was it.

I swear I was eating Giordanos though (maybe on a bad chef day).  It was that close.  I am also convinced the flavor in the dough that is different than other pizza joints is from the margarine in the pan (I used imperial).

9 inch formulation:
Trumps - 100% - 600g
Water - 45%
Oil - 12%
Salt - 1.5%
Sugar - 2.5%
IDY - 1.5tsp

8hr room temp rise (had to punch it down about 5 times)
Baked at 465F with screen on stone for 35 mins.  It was a tad to long.  With go with about 31 mins next time.

Sauce:  (will document measurements next time)

7/11 crushed tomatoes
Salt
Sugar
Garlic powder
Basil
Oregano
Crushed red pepper
Good brand of EVOO

« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 08:35:12 PM by pythonic »
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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2014, 08:39:10 PM »
Nate,

Can you tell us how much cheese you used by weight, its type and brand, and how much sauce you used, by weight or by volume? And can you tell us which specific Imperial margarine you used?

FYI, your 1 1/2 teaspoons of IDY translates to around 0.95%. That is high for an 8-hour room temperature fermented dough, even one with as much oil (12%) as you used.

When I did my calculations, which were based on about 13 ounces of the mozzarella blend and about 1 1/2 cups of sauce, the amount of flour that I arrived at was around 400 grams. Any changes to the amounts of cheese blend and sauce would change the amount of flour.

Sometime you might weigh the unbaked pizza and the baked pizza to see what losses were sustained during baking. I once did that and the weight loss was 5%.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 08:41:51 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2014, 08:59:33 PM »
Nate,

Can you tell us how much cheese you used by weight, its type and brand, and how much sauce you used, by weight or by volume? And can you tell us which specific Imperial margarine you used?

FYI, your 1 1/2 teaspoons of IDY translates to around 0.95%. That is high for an 8-hour room temperature fermented dough, even one with as much oil (12%) as you used.

When I did my calculations, which were based on about 13 ounces of the mozzarella blend and about 1 1/2 cups of sauce, the amount of flour that I arrived at was around 400 grams. Any changes to the amounts of cheese blend and sauce would change the amount of flour.

Sometime you might weigh the unbaked pizza and the baked pizza to see what losses were sustained during baking. I once did that and the weight loss was 5%.

Peter

Peter,

I have no weights, sorry.  If I had to guess I would say 10-12oz mozzarella (Supremo Italiano).
Sauce was around 3/4 cup.  There was so much air in the dough it expanded and squished the sauce together.   I used the imperial sticks (the gold box).
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 09:01:21 PM by pythonic »
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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2014, 09:04:14 PM »
I used the imperial sticks (the gold box).
Nate,

Can you list the ingredients for the particular Imperial product you used and also check the box to see if the percent of oil is stated? Thanks.

Peter

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2014, 09:06:36 PM »
More Thoughts:

I still did not get the top cracking I was after.  It needs to be slightly drier.   I need to use even less water and up the oil perhaps? 

The end crust needs to be lighter.  Dense is what it's supposed to look like but it's not dense and chewy at all.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 09:09:16 PM by pythonic »
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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2014, 09:07:44 PM »
Nate,

Can you list the ingredients for the particular Imperial product you used and also check the box to see if the percent of oil is stated? Thanks.

Peter

Tossed the box last week.  Sorry.
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