Author Topic: Giordanos - Cracking The Code  (Read 7918 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #100 on: February 15, 2014, 08:46:51 PM »
Today's dough formula:

Flour (100%): 498.74 g  |  17.59 oz | 1.1 lbs   (305g KA Bread + 193g KAAP)
Water (43%): 214.46 g  |  7.56 oz | 0.47 lbs 
ADY (1%): 4.99 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 
Salt (1.5%): 7.48 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.2 tsp | 0.73 tbsp
Corn Oil (4%): 19.95 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.43 tsp | 1.48 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (3%): 14.96 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.16 tsp | 1.05 tbsp 
Shortening (4%): 19.95 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.99 tsp | 1.66 tbsp 
Sugar (2.5%): 12.47 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.13 tsp | 1.04 tbsp 
Total (159%): 793 g | 27.97 oz | 1.75 lbs |

As you can see, I think the food processor does great job of cutting the fats into the dough, similar to making pie dough. Added water and then after 30 sec of pulsing, you can see the dough starting to come together. I then only went another 15 seconds or so and then balled the dough by hand and put in oiled bowl. The dough seems very easy to work with. Sitting on the counter for a room temp rise.

Going with 6in1 ground, whole milk mozz and a few slices of boar's head provolone. pepperoni, onions, green peppers

Results to come tonight.

Waiting to see these results.
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Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #101 on: February 16, 2014, 08:36:37 AM »
OK. The dough was wonderful to work with. Interesting note, the 2nd pie was better than the first and was made using scraps. I was able to get the 2nd pie rolled out thinner.
First pie uncooked:



Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #102 on: February 16, 2014, 08:41:12 AM »
First pie baked (too thick of a crust) but flavor and crumb were pretty spot on. I used butter/shortening combo for the pans.

Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #103 on: February 16, 2014, 08:47:49 AM »
Best of the night by far. Made from scraps and I got it thinner and used more cheese. The dough was soft and flaky but not too tender; I really think this is the one.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #104 on: February 16, 2014, 02:12:22 PM »
Really nice Teddy, those look mighty tasty!  :chef:

Bob
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #105 on: February 16, 2014, 03:26:24 PM »
Teddy,

Nice pies.  What thickness did you roll or stretch the dough to?  What bake temp and times did you use?  Were you able to get any layers in your dough?

Nate
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Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #106 on: February 18, 2014, 08:27:58 AM »
Rolled out by eye and then hand stretched. I baked at 460 for: 25 minutes for first 9" pie. 20 minutes for the 2nd pie of 8"; it could have stayed in a few minutes longer.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2014, 11:02:22 AM »
Since Giordanos once used Ceresota AP flour to make their pies I wanted to get it a shot.   I was unsuccessful in my last AP attempt so I decided to change the formulation completely and start fresh.  I want to explore shortening more as it could be in G's pies due to all the layering.    I'm very happy with the look and feel of this dough.  I decided not to make the top crust today to cut down on the calories.  I will do a 5hr oven rise and report back. 

Formulation for 9 inch, 2 inch deep pan:

Ceresota flour - 100% - 350g
Water - 51.7% - 181g
Shortening - 5% - 17g
Soybean oil - 5% - 17g
Salt - 2% - 7g
Sugar - 2.5% - 9g
IDY - 3/4 tsp

Procedure:

Cut in shortening then the oil into dry ingredients.  Mix in the IDY.  Added water and kneaded for about 2 minutes.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 11:05:05 AM by pythonic »
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #108 on: February 20, 2014, 03:48:42 PM »
I end up having enough dough scraps left over to make a stuffed pizza.   Preheated stone to 400F and baked at 450 for 27 mins.  I had high hope for this pizza but it came out dense, too crispy, chewy and zero layers.  I knew it was off just by the outside texture of the crust.  Back to the drawing board and I'll have to run a few miles to keep this pizza from going to my butt. 

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #109 on: February 20, 2014, 05:48:10 PM »
Looks maaarvelous though.   8)

Bob
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #110 on: February 20, 2014, 06:10:45 PM »
Looks maaarvelous though.   8)

Bob

The crust was awful.  Too much water and not enough fat.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #111 on: February 24, 2014, 10:29:42 AM »
Any ideas what the black specks are in the sauce that they use?  Was thinking pepper but not sure - any clue's?


Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #112 on: February 24, 2014, 12:53:36 PM »
Any ideas what the black specks are in the sauce that they use?  Was thinking pepper but not sure - any clue's?

Would have to be pepper right?  I know there is basil and crushed red pepper for sure.  Garlic, sugar and salt most likely.  Don't know about oregano though.
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Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #113 on: February 24, 2014, 02:01:13 PM »
I don't think it's pepper, from all the pics I looked at on-line it appears to be an herb.  I did not pay attention to the one I was eating one last week. Sizes (shape and thickness) are not right when compared to a fresh cracked peppercorn or restaurant course ground pepper.  It is in the sauce for sure, it's the color that's unusual.  If it's an herb I don't know of any which are black, so maybe this mean's its a cooked sauce and those are dried (or fresh) herbs (parsley maybe) that have gone dark due to cooking....I think this is an important aspect to the look of the pizza overall. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2014, 03:01:10 PM »
If the list of ingredients for the Giordano's pizza sauce as given at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg297991#msg297991 is correctly recited and to be believed, then, as I see it, the Giordano's Sauce comprises the following:

Whole Peeled Tomatoes, Ground Peeled Tomatoes, Salt (presumably the salt that is added to canned tomatoes by virtually all producers of canned tomatoes, including Escalon/Heinz and Stanislaus), Soybean Oil, Sauce Seasoning comprising Salt, Spices and Garlic Powder, and Basil.

If I were to guess, the standalone "Basil" is perhaps the fresh basil that is often added to canned whole tomatoes. That is true at Stanislaus but I could not find anything to tell me if Escalon adds fresh basil to the Bella Rossa whole peeled tomatoes (they are pear tomatoes). However, when I looked at the label for the Classico peeled whole tomatoes (also pear tomatoes), which is a product that was recently discontinued by Heinz, fresh basil is shown as an ingredient. Usually it is just a sprig or leaf (Stanislaus calls it "fresh basil leaf"). Like the Bella Rossa whole peeled tomatoes, the Classico peeled tomatoes are also packed in juice. I see no evidence that sugar is added to the Giordano's sauce. If it were, under FDA rules and regulations, it would have to be stated. I have not seen any tomato product from Stanslaus or Escalon that has sugar added to it.

As for what a spice is, see examples as given in the FDA CFR document at http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=101.22. The list of spices given there is fairly complete but not exhaustive. For those spices that are generally regarded as safe for human consumption, see the list as given in this FDA CFR document: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=182.10.

Peter

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2014, 04:46:10 PM »
Great reference, thank you.

In your opinion, does the sauce looked cooked to you?

In looking at more pictures there appears to be small seeds (celery, anise or something else) in addition to a leafy herb.  Too many pictures have the same small arched object, looks like a seed of some kind.  Maybe they are toasting seeds and adding to the sauce... I might have to go get another pizza to take a deeper look.  I can't see how any of the herbs/spices would go black w/o any prior cooking or potential baking prior to adding to their sauce....if there was that much black pepper you would taste it.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #116 on: February 24, 2014, 06:23:32 PM »
Great reference, thank you.

In your opinion, does the sauce looked cooked to you?

In looking at more pictures there appears to be small seeds (celery, anise or something else) in addition to a leafy herb.  Too many pictures have the same small arched object, looks like a seed of some kind.  Maybe they are toasting seeds and adding to the sauce... I might have to go get another pizza to take a deeper look.  I can't see how any of the herbs/spices would go black w/o any prior cooking or potential baking prior to adding to their sauce....if there was that much black pepper you would taste it.

It is the basil you are seeing maybe?
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #117 on: February 24, 2014, 07:55:47 PM »
It's jus pepper man...get over it.
Don't make the simple complex....PLEASE!!!  8)

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #118 on: February 24, 2014, 08:27:31 PM »
In your opinion, does the sauce looked cooked to you?
PizzaGarage,

In answer to your question, I would say no. And, in that vein, all I can do is tell you the logic and analysis I applied to arrive at that answer.

First, since Heinz was one of the major creditors in the Giordano's bankruptcy proceedings, and since the Giordano's pizzas or their quality were not the reason for the bankruptcy filing, I believe that Giordano's is still using Heinz tomato products. And since it has long been reported that Giordano's was using 6-in-1 ground tomatoes, which is an Escalon product, I believe that Giordano's continues to use Escalon products. I would rule out Stanislaus as a supplier, or at least a main supplier, and not because Stanislaus was not a creditor in the Giordano's bankruptcy proceedings, but rather because Stanislaus specifies that its tomato products contain "naturally derived citric acid". See, for example, the ingredients list for the Stanislaus Alta Cucina Whole Peeled Plum Tomatoes at http://www.stanislaus.com/_pdfs/Alta-Cucina-Plum-Tomatoes.pdf. By contradistinction, Escalon clearly emphasizes that it never adds citric acid to its tomatoes. See, for example, the discussion of citric acid at Escalon at http://www.escalon.net/escalon-difference.aspx. The foregoing does not mean that the Escalon tomatoes do not have naturally occurring citric acid. They do but the lack of mention of citric acid in the ingredients list in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg297991#msg297991 leads me to believe that Giordano's is using the Heinz/Escalon tomato products. In my experience, when pizza operators use Stanislaus tomatoes, they usually quote from the Stanislaus ingredients lists and mention the citric acid.

Second, after having read hundreds of posts on pizza sauces over the years at the PMQ Think Tank where the sauces were based on using the Stanislaus and Escalon tomato products, I am hard pressed to recall that sauces based on those products were ever cooked. It is important to keep in mind that, as fresh pack tomatoes that are processed within about six hours of harvest, the fresh pack tomatoes are more expensive than most other canned tomatoes, to the point of adding several cents per typical pizza (e.g., a 16" pizza). And because the tomatoes have a fresher and more natural taste, there is little reason to cook them since that will destroy some of that natural tomato taste. In practice, most pizza operators who use fresh pack tomatoes might use one or two fresh pack tomato products and simply add a few spices or spice pack to those products and perhaps a bit of oil and maybe grated Parmesan and/or Romano cheeses. They might also add water, which Stanislaus frowns upon (but Escalon does not), but there is no cooking.

Third, to buttress the foregoing analysis, if you look at the pizza sauce recipes at Stanislaus, at http://www.stanislaus.com/family-recipes/recipe-search-result?page=1, and also the pizza sauce recipes at Escalon, at http://www.escalon.net/recipes/Pizza_Sauces, you will not find a single sauce recipe where the tomatoes are cooked. You will find that other ingredients might be cooked, but not the tomatoes themselves. You might also find this PMQ Think Tank post of interest in relation to the foregoing: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7199&p=48295&hilit=stanislaus#p48295.

Is it possible that I am wrong? Yes, it is. As long as a pizza operator has a stove and tomatoes, the thought might occur at some point to cook the sauce, even when using fresh pack tomatoes. But, as a major pizza operator with access to professional help from its suppliers of products for its pizzas, I am disinclined to believe that Giordano's is cooking its pizza sauces. I also believe that Giordano's tries to keep things as simple and uncomplicated as possible, and this becomes even more important as it tries to grow its store count from the mid-forties to around 100 stores in the next few years as it has reported in press releases. My guess is that they are using a fairly basic spice pack. It might be a customized spice pack from someone like spicetec (a unit of ConAgra, at http://www.spicetec.com/) or it might be an off-the-shelf spice pack. I mention spicetec only because its spices are sold by Greco & Sons who were also creditors in the Giordano's bankruptcy proceeding (see http://net3.necs.com/grecoandsons/search?offset=0&limit=60&col=item_no&dir=ASC&terms=spices&queryCol=). You might also note the simplicity of the spices in the Chicago Deep-Dish and Chicago Stuffed Pizza sauce recipes at the Escalon and Stanislaus websites as referenced above.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #119 on: February 24, 2014, 08:34:55 PM »
They are too busy making money to sit around cooking their sauce...IMHO.
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Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #120 on: February 25, 2014, 09:08:53 AM »
Pete - thanks for the response and analysis.  Makes sense....

Offline Steve

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #121 on: March 09, 2014, 07:55:11 PM »
I'm doing a pizza party for friends and family this weekend. I was planning to make a standard Chicago deep dish, a couple of my cracker crust pizzas, and 4 or 6 New York style. Now I'm thinking I should include one of these.  :)

Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #122 on: March 09, 2014, 08:17:46 PM »
I'm doing a pizza party for friends and family this weekend. I was planning to make a standard Chicago deep dish, a couple of my cracker crust pizzas, and 4 or 6 New York style. Now I'm thinking I should include one of these.  :)

Steve,

Here is the recipe you want to use.  It's the best and closest on this site.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30449.0
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Offline Steve

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #123 on: March 09, 2014, 08:29:55 PM »
Here is the recipe you want to use.  It's the best and closest on this site.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30449.0

Thanks!


 

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