Author Topic: Giordanos - Cracking The Code  (Read 4114 times)

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Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2014, 10:30:24 PM »
For what it's worth, I had Giordanos tonight and made notes below.  If I was going to replicate this crust this is where I would start.  There is a larger amount of sugar than normal and butter or Margarine in the dough formulation.  Flour is AP on my stuffed.

Giordanos crust estimate

Hydration 45
Sugar 6 to 9, white only, start with 6
Veggie oil 4
Butter or Margarine 7, leaning Margarine
Salt 2%, assumes unsalted butter or Margarine

Potential: low percentage of sweet whey. Start without this.



Pan 2" dark american metal craft with Margarine or crisco butter flavor shortening - a good heavy greasing bottom and sides

Cook 450 at 35 on screen on stone

Cheese 100% provolone whole milk
Heavy sprinkle parm on top of Provo, not fresh grated, but standard fine grated refrigerated bagged or refrigerated container, not heavy aged.   Use same for top on sauce.
There was no mozzarella on my stuffed pizza
No pan rise - this is not a risen crust, just pan then then cook
Yeast .25, this is a low yeast formulation
I also think this is a same day dough
Thickness just below below 1/4 inch
Tuck top layer down along edge of pan, press first and second dough together lightly do not pinch,  and roll top with rolling pin, edge bottom is thin, so needs to be tucked

The unique flavor in the crust is oil, butter and sugar with a potential for sweet whey.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 10:33:11 PM by PizzaGarage »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2014, 09:42:22 AM »
Pizza Garage,

As best we know, these are the ingredients that go into a typical Giordano's stuffed pizza: Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg297991#msg297991. And, recently, as noted in Reply 43 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg300331;topicseen#msg300331, Giordano's told me that these were the ingredients for their dough were "all-purpose flour, yeast, soy vegetable oil, water, sugar and salt". What was interesting in the latter revelation is the inclusion of sugar in the dough. If we go back to around 2008, the ingredients that went into the Giordano's pizzas were as given in Reply 85 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5674.msg53610#msg53610. You will note the omission of the sugar. At the time, that omission drove me batty because the Sugars numbers were too high to be accounted for by only the Sugars in the tomatoes used to make the sauce, and there was no sugar added to that sauce. I now think that the sugar in the dough was possibly an unintended omission. Interestingly, one of our members, JJ, tried to tell me that the Giordano's dough included sugar, as he so noted in Reply 109 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5674.msg67409#msg67409. As can see from Reply 110 that followed, I tried to brush off that suggestion on the basis that Giordano's may have used sugar in the dough back in the 1970s but may have omitted the sugar by 2008.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2014, 09:51:31 AM »
Peter,

I want my next doughball to be easier to roll out.  For that I need more oil right?  I want to drop hydration to 42% and increase oil to 18%.  I also want to decrease yeast by 50%.  Will this forumlation give me an easier piece of dough to work with?

Nate
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2014, 10:48:27 AM »
Peter,

I want my next doughball to be easier to roll out.  For that I need more oil right?  I want to drop hydration to 42% and increase oil to 18%.  I also want to decrease yeast by 50%.  Will this forumlation give me an easier piece of dough to work with?

Nate
Nate,

When I did my original calculations back in 2008, and after reviewing those calculations again recently, I premised my Total Fats and Sat Fat calculations on estimates of the amounts and types of mozzarella cheeses Giordano's used at that time (I assumed a 50/50 blend of low-moisture whole milk mozzarella cheese and low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, both from Stella), and also the amounts of those fats in the flour (small), the Parmesan cheese (small), the sauce (trivial), and in the fat (I assumed butter) used to grease the pan (for a 10" pizza). I calculated the amount of cheeses based on the Cholesterol numbers that Giordano's gave me. My calculations suggested that the amount of oil (soybean oil) used in the Giordano's dough was perhaps around 13-14%. Moreover, if I assumed some other blend of the above two cheeses, the numbers would not have changed enough to suggest a materially larger or smaller amount of oil. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to calculate the amount of water in the dough since there are multiple sources of water loss during baking (primarily from the mozzarella cheeses, which have a nominal water content of around 47%, the sauce, which has a typical water content of close to 90%, and the dough). But I would rather increase the hydration than lowering it and increasing the amount of oil along the lines you mentioned. I think I would try 47% hydration and around 13% soybean oil.

As for the yeast, I think that if you use around 1% IDY, and use cold fermentation, just as Giordano's does, you might see roughly a doubling in the volume of the dough after about two days, although this will depend on the temperatures that prevail at your place during the preparation and management of the dough (mainly the finished dough temperature, the temperatures of your refrigerator, and the prevailing temperatures at the time that the dough is tempered before using). If you want to go to three days, as has been mentioned in the literature and that makes sense for a three-times-a-week commissary delivery cycle, you might try using 0.75% IDY. I wish I could tell you how much sugar to use but the Sugars calculations are tricky since there are Sugars in the sauce, a small amount in the flour, and possibly Sugars from the conversion of starch in the flour to Sugars, which can vary depending on the duration of fermentation. But, were I to guess, I would agree with Pizza Garage that the sugar may be on the high side, since he presumably was able to detect sweetness in the crust from his latest tasting of a Giordano's stuffed pizza.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2014, 11:07:21 AM »
Peter,

The last formulation I went with though wasn't dry enough and I used 45% water and 12% oil.  Increasing the water would only make it moister right?  I want to do the exact opposite.  I made another batch of dough just now so we will see how it goes. Hope I didn't go too high on oil.  16% may have been better with 43% hydration.

Trumps - 100% -500g
Water - 42%
Soybean oil - 18%
Salt - 1.5%
Sugar - 2.0% (I lowered mine to prevent too much browning from long bake)
IDY - 3/4 tsp (Not sure how much)
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2014, 11:40:07 AM »
For what it's worth, I had Giordanos tonight and made notes below.  If I was going to replicate this crust this is where I would start.  There is a larger amount of sugar than normal and butter or Margarine in the dough formulation.  Flour is AP on my stuffed.

Giordanos crust estimate

Hydration 45
Sugar 6 to 9, white only, start with 6
Veggie oil 4
Butter or Margarine 7, leaning Margarine
Salt 2%, assumes unsalted butter or Margarine

Potential: low percentage of sweet whey. Start without this.



Pan 2" dark american metal craft with Margarine or crisco butter flavor shortening - a good heavy greasing bottom and sides

Cook 450 at 35 on screen on stone

Cheese 100% provolone whole milk
Heavy sprinkle parm on top of Provo, not fresh grated, but standard fine grated refrigerated bagged or refrigerated container, not heavy aged.   Use same for top on sauce.
There was no mozzarella on my stuffed pizza
No pan rise - this is not a risen crust, just pan then then cook
Yeast .25, this is a low yeast formulation
I also think this is a same day dough
Thickness just below below 1/4 inch
Tuck top layer down along edge of pan, press first and second dough together lightly do not pinch,  and roll top with rolling pin, edge bottom is thin, so needs to be tucked

The unique flavor in the crust is oil, butter and sugar with a potential for sweet whey.

PG,

Please give this a shot with the AP flour.  I have not been successful using it.  The texture is different.  I believe I'm using too much protein though.  I may need to mix in some AP to bring it down.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2014, 01:24:44 PM »
Some pics.

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2014, 01:30:33 PM »
And a few more.  Taken with my cell phone so not the best sorry to say.

For sure there is heavy white sugar in the stuffed we had, butter or margarine as well.  Of course I am going by my "taster" and the reason I say butter or margarine is because I work with butter a lot in my doughs so I've tasted it many times.  I do not think the oil is corn, but veggie oil. 

If you notice, the crust is quite thin, the top was thinner than the bottom.  The top is tucked down along side the pan where it meets the outer crust - so there is not a great thickness at the bottom edge of the pan. 

Dough was undercooked as well

Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2014, 01:37:23 PM »
PG,

So margarine and veggie oil in the dough?  They coat the pans with margarine for sure.

Nate
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Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2014, 01:49:34 PM »
Yes, in the dough as well.  I made that observation by tasting the inside areas away from the pan edge.

The cheese was not mozz either, rather provolone with parm. 

The bottom was undercooked partially as well, essentially the upper 25% of the bottom crust was gelatinous.  I suspect due to the whole milk cheese. 

Since I have not eaten their Stuffed before I cannot say if the stores vary in their formulation.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2014, 01:51:06 PM »
The last formulation I went with though wasn't dry enough and I used 45% water and 12% oil.  Increasing the water would only make it moister right?  I want to do the exact opposite.  I made another batch of dough just now so we will see how it goes. Hope I didn't go too high on oil.  16% may have been better with 43% hydration.
Nate,

In general, and for most doughs, and else being equal, increasing the hydration of the dough should result in a more open and porous dough and crumb. But when you introduce oil to the equation, and especially a lot of it, the rules can change quite significantly. For example, if you were to combine and knead the flour and water together until the flour is properly hydrated and then add the oil and knead that in, the flour should retain its hydrated nature. However, if you were to add the oil to the flour and mix it in, and then add the water, the flour may not be fully and properly hydrated. Also, if the water is cold (which is something that Giordano's could conceivably do at its commissary) and/or the oil is cold (which I wouldn't think Giordano's would do at its commissary), then either event could further impair the hydration of the flour and its performance. Since this could undo some of the usual effects of increasing the hydration, for your purposes, this might be a good thing. Moreover, using these methods might even allow you to do a final knead to further improve the extensibility of the dough and its roll-out performance.

So, how you make the dough can affect its performance and the finished crust characteristics.

FYI, your IDY quantity as recited for your most recent dough formulation comes to about 0.57%.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2014, 02:03:22 PM »
Yes, in the dough as well.  I made that observation by tasting the inside areas away from the pan edge.

The cheese was not mozz either, rather provolone with parm. 

The bottom was undercooked partially as well, essentially the upper 25% of the bottom crust was gelatinous.  I suspect due to the whole milk cheese. 

Since I have not eaten their Stuffed before I cannot say if the stores vary in their formulation.


PG,

Their ingredient list off one of their frozen pizzas says mozzarella.  I do think their is pecorino in the sauce too.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.0
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2014, 02:13:00 PM »
Nate,

In general, and for most doughs, and else being equal, increasing the hydration of the dough should result in a more open and porous dough and crumb. But when you introduce oil to the equation, and especially a lot of it, the rules can change quite significantly. For example, if you were to combine and knead the flour and water together until the flour is properly hydrated and then add the oil and knead that in, the flour should retain its hydrated nature. However, if you were to add the oil to the flour and mix it in, and then add the water, the flour may not be fully and properly hydrated. Also, if the water is cold (which is something that Giordano's could conceivably do at its commissary) and/or the oil is cold (which I wouldn't think Giordano's would do at its commissary), then either event could further impair the hydration of the flour and its performance. Since this could undo some of the usual effects of increasing the hydration, for your purposes, this might be a good thing. Moreover, using these methods might even allow you to do a final knead to further improve the extensibility of the dough and its roll-out performance.

So, how you make the dough can affect its performance and the finished crust characteristics.

FYI, your IDY quantity as recited for your most recent dough formulation comes to about 0.57%.

Peter

I mix in oil first but I use warm water.  What effects will that give me vs cold water?  Will cold rise effect product too?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2014, 03:34:00 PM »
So margarine and veggie oil in the dough?  They coat the pans with margarine for sure.

Nate,

If margarine is being used in the Giordano's dough and if Giordano's is using provolone cheese instead of mozzarella cheese(s) for its stuffed pizzas, that would mean that Giordano's is either lying or is reckless, or there is a renegade franchisee, or maybe they are even misleading their own customer service reps. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to change a product that was not the source or cause of Giordano's bankruptcy filing. It was ill-advised real estate investments in Florida at the peak of the market by the former owner of Giordano's, and other misdeeds, that led to the filing. So, there would have been no reason to change the fundamentals of the Giordano's stuffed pizza dough. That would only confuse regular customers and possibly drive many of them away, especially those who liked the Giordano's pizzas as they were. I discussed the above matters in greater detail in Reply 120 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25774.msg276491#msg276491. Note, in particular the quoted comments of Giordano's new executive chef Russell Bry.

As for the use of provolone cheese, all I can say is that, like mozzarella cheese, provolone cheese is a pasta filata cheese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta_filata) and, as such, will have stretch characteristics like melted mozzarella cheese. If Giordano's is now using provolone cheese, that might fool some people but I don't think they can fool everyone. And not everyone likes provolone cheese and disappointed customers might be heard to complain or they may choose to vent their spleens at Yelp and other review sites.

Another thing to keep in mind is that butter contains a lot of saturated fats (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/133/2). And while saturated fats aren't villainized as much as they once were, they are still persona non gratis in most places.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 04:22:41 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2014, 03:42:38 PM »
Their ingredient list off one of their frozen pizzas says mozzarella.  I do think their is pecorino in the sauce too.

Nate,

The way the Parmesan and Romano Cheese Blend is set forth in the ingredients list at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg297991#msg297991, it is as a standalone product. That is, the cheese blend is not listed in the Sauce part of the ingredients list. No doubt, the cheese blend will end up in the sauce but it is not mixed into the sauce at the outset. It is added later.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2014, 03:54:00 PM »
I mix in oil first but I use warm water.  What effects will that give me vs cold water?  Will cold rise effect product too?

Nate,

Using all warm water will increase the finished dough temperature, and unless steps are taken to cool down the dough fast, the higher finished dough temperature will cause the dough to ferment faster, even while in the refrigerator. And if, at the same time, a lot of yeast is used, you will see even faster fermentation.

Over the years, I have made many experimental doughs where I used cold water, and even ice cubes. And what I found is that cold water impedes the hydration of the flour. Often what happens is that it takes a considerably longer knead in order to achieve the desired hydration of the flour. As a result, by the time the knead is done, the frictional heat has raised the finished dough temperature by more than what might have been desired. To see some of the effects I have experienced using cold water and ice cubes, see Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1931.msg17097#msg17097.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2014, 04:27:08 PM »
Nate,

The way the Parmesan and Romano Cheese Blend is set forth in the ingredients list at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg297991#msg297991, it is as a standalone product. That is, the cheese blend is not listed in the Sauce part of the ingredients list. No doubt, the cheese blend will end up in the sauce but it is not mixed into the sauce at the outset. It is added later.

Peter


Peter,

Isn't the Romano listed twice?  Blend and by itself?
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2014, 04:29:57 PM »
Next attempt looks very promising :).  Out of the oven in 10mins.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2014, 04:45:11 PM »
Did we strike it rich?  We will see in about 15 mins.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2014, 04:47:51 PM »
Baked.  Will cut in 15mins.
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