Author Topic: Giordanos - Cracking The Code  (Read 6964 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2014, 11:40:07 AM »
For what it's worth, I had Giordanos tonight and made notes below.  If I was going to replicate this crust this is where I would start.  There is a larger amount of sugar than normal and butter or Margarine in the dough formulation.  Flour is AP on my stuffed.

Giordanos crust estimate

Hydration 45
Sugar 6 to 9, white only, start with 6
Veggie oil 4
Butter or Margarine 7, leaning Margarine
Salt 2%, assumes unsalted butter or Margarine

Potential: low percentage of sweet whey. Start without this.



Pan 2" dark american metal craft with Margarine or crisco butter flavor shortening - a good heavy greasing bottom and sides

Cook 450 at 35 on screen on stone

Cheese 100% provolone whole milk
Heavy sprinkle parm on top of Provo, not fresh grated, but standard fine grated refrigerated bagged or refrigerated container, not heavy aged.   Use same for top on sauce.
There was no mozzarella on my stuffed pizza
No pan rise - this is not a risen crust, just pan then then cook
Yeast .25, this is a low yeast formulation
I also think this is a same day dough
Thickness just below below 1/4 inch
Tuck top layer down along edge of pan, press first and second dough together lightly do not pinch,  and roll top with rolling pin, edge bottom is thin, so needs to be tucked

The unique flavor in the crust is oil, butter and sugar with a potential for sweet whey.

PG,

Please give this a shot with the AP flour.  I have not been successful using it.  The texture is different.  I believe I'm using too much protein though.  I may need to mix in some AP to bring it down.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.


Offline PizzaGarage

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 294
  • Location: Chicago
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2014, 01:24:44 PM »
Some pics.

Offline PizzaGarage

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 294
  • Location: Chicago
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2014, 01:30:33 PM »
And a few more.  Taken with my cell phone so not the best sorry to say.

For sure there is heavy white sugar in the stuffed we had, butter or margarine as well.  Of course I am going by my "taster" and the reason I say butter or margarine is because I work with butter a lot in my doughs so I've tasted it many times.  I do not think the oil is corn, but veggie oil. 

If you notice, the crust is quite thin, the top was thinner than the bottom.  The top is tucked down along side the pan where it meets the outer crust - so there is not a great thickness at the bottom edge of the pan. 

Dough was undercooked as well

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2014, 01:37:23 PM »
PG,

So margarine and veggie oil in the dough?  They coat the pans with margarine for sure.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline PizzaGarage

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 294
  • Location: Chicago
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2014, 01:49:34 PM »
Yes, in the dough as well.  I made that observation by tasting the inside areas away from the pan edge.

The cheese was not mozz either, rather provolone with parm. 

The bottom was undercooked partially as well, essentially the upper 25% of the bottom crust was gelatinous.  I suspect due to the whole milk cheese. 

Since I have not eaten their Stuffed before I cannot say if the stores vary in their formulation.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2014, 01:51:06 PM »
The last formulation I went with though wasn't dry enough and I used 45% water and 12% oil.  Increasing the water would only make it moister right?  I want to do the exact opposite.  I made another batch of dough just now so we will see how it goes. Hope I didn't go too high on oil.  16% may have been better with 43% hydration.
Nate,

In general, and for most doughs, and else being equal, increasing the hydration of the dough should result in a more open and porous dough and crumb. But when you introduce oil to the equation, and especially a lot of it, the rules can change quite significantly. For example, if you were to combine and knead the flour and water together until the flour is properly hydrated and then add the oil and knead that in, the flour should retain its hydrated nature. However, if you were to add the oil to the flour and mix it in, and then add the water, the flour may not be fully and properly hydrated. Also, if the water is cold (which is something that Giordano's could conceivably do at its commissary) and/or the oil is cold (which I wouldn't think Giordano's would do at its commissary), then either event could further impair the hydration of the flour and its performance. Since this could undo some of the usual effects of increasing the hydration, for your purposes, this might be a good thing. Moreover, using these methods might even allow you to do a final knead to further improve the extensibility of the dough and its roll-out performance.

So, how you make the dough can affect its performance and the finished crust characteristics.

FYI, your IDY quantity as recited for your most recent dough formulation comes to about 0.57%.

Peter

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2014, 02:03:22 PM »
Yes, in the dough as well.  I made that observation by tasting the inside areas away from the pan edge.

The cheese was not mozz either, rather provolone with parm. 

The bottom was undercooked partially as well, essentially the upper 25% of the bottom crust was gelatinous.  I suspect due to the whole milk cheese. 

Since I have not eaten their Stuffed before I cannot say if the stores vary in their formulation.

PG,

Their ingredient list off one of their frozen pizzas says mozzarella.  I do think their is pecorino in the sauce too.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.0
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2014, 02:13:00 PM »
Nate,

In general, and for most doughs, and else being equal, increasing the hydration of the dough should result in a more open and porous dough and crumb. But when you introduce oil to the equation, and especially a lot of it, the rules can change quite significantly. For example, if you were to combine and knead the flour and water together until the flour is properly hydrated and then add the oil and knead that in, the flour should retain its hydrated nature. However, if you were to add the oil to the flour and mix it in, and then add the water, the flour may not be fully and properly hydrated. Also, if the water is cold (which is something that Giordano's could conceivably do at its commissary) and/or the oil is cold (which I wouldn't think Giordano's would do at its commissary), then either event could further impair the hydration of the flour and its performance. Since this could undo some of the usual effects of increasing the hydration, for your purposes, this might be a good thing. Moreover, using these methods might even allow you to do a final knead to further improve the extensibility of the dough and its roll-out performance.

So, how you make the dough can affect its performance and the finished crust characteristics.

FYI, your IDY quantity as recited for your most recent dough formulation comes to about 0.57%.

Peter

I mix in oil first but I use warm water.  What effects will that give me vs cold water?  Will cold rise effect product too?
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2014, 03:34:00 PM »
So margarine and veggie oil in the dough?  They coat the pans with margarine for sure.
Nate,

If margarine is being used in the Giordano's dough and if Giordano's is using provolone cheese instead of mozzarella cheese(s) for its stuffed pizzas, that would mean that Giordano's is either lying or is reckless, or there is a renegade franchisee, or maybe they are even misleading their own customer service reps. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to change a product that was not the source or cause of Giordano's bankruptcy filing. It was ill-advised real estate investments in Florida at the peak of the market by the former owner of Giordano's, and other misdeeds, that led to the filing. So, there would have been no reason to change the fundamentals of the Giordano's stuffed pizza dough. That would only confuse regular customers and possibly drive many of them away, especially those who liked the Giordano's pizzas as they were. I discussed the above matters in greater detail in Reply 120 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25774.msg276491#msg276491. Note, in particular the quoted comments of Giordano's new executive chef Russell Bry.

As for the use of provolone cheese, all I can say is that, like mozzarella cheese, provolone cheese is a pasta filata cheese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta_filata) and, as such, will have stretch characteristics like melted mozzarella cheese. If Giordano's is now using provolone cheese, that might fool some people but I don't think they can fool everyone. And not everyone likes provolone cheese and disappointed customers might be heard to complain or they may choose to vent their spleens at Yelp and other review sites.

Another thing to keep in mind is that butter contains a lot of saturated fats (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/133/2). And while saturated fats aren't villainized as much as they once were, they are still persona non gratis in most places.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 04:22:41 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2014, 03:42:38 PM »
Their ingredient list off one of their frozen pizzas says mozzarella.  I do think their is pecorino in the sauce too.
Nate,

The way the Parmesan and Romano Cheese Blend is set forth in the ingredients list at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg297991#msg297991, it is as a standalone product. That is, the cheese blend is not listed in the Sauce part of the ingredients list. No doubt, the cheese blend will end up in the sauce but it is not mixed into the sauce at the outset. It is added later.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2014, 03:54:00 PM »
I mix in oil first but I use warm water.  What effects will that give me vs cold water?  Will cold rise effect product too?
Nate,

Using all warm water will increase the finished dough temperature, and unless steps are taken to cool down the dough fast, the higher finished dough temperature will cause the dough to ferment faster, even while in the refrigerator. And if, at the same time, a lot of yeast is used, you will see even faster fermentation.

Over the years, I have made many experimental doughs where I used cold water, and even ice cubes. And what I found is that cold water impedes the hydration of the flour. Often what happens is that it takes a considerably longer knead in order to achieve the desired hydration of the flour. As a result, by the time the knead is done, the frictional heat has raised the finished dough temperature by more than what might have been desired. To see some of the effects I have experienced using cold water and ice cubes, see Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1931.msg17097#msg17097.

Peter

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2014, 04:27:08 PM »
Nate,

The way the Parmesan and Romano Cheese Blend is set forth in the ingredients list at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg297991#msg297991, it is as a standalone product. That is, the cheese blend is not listed in the Sauce part of the ingredients list. No doubt, the cheese blend will end up in the sauce but it is not mixed into the sauce at the outset. It is added later.

Peter

Peter,

Isn't the Romano listed twice?  Blend and by itself?
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2014, 04:29:57 PM »
Next attempt looks very promising :).  Out of the oven in 10mins.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2014, 04:45:11 PM »
Did we strike it rich?  We will see in about 15 mins.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2014, 04:47:51 PM »
Baked.  Will cut in 15mins.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2014, 05:05:12 PM »
Ok here we go.

Thoughts: Too much oil and not enough ferment time.  The magical dough flavor I had yesterday was taken over by the increase of oil.  However the thinness of this dough helped out the texture much better.  I dropped the bake time to 31 mins but this one cooked faster than the previous and bottom was a little overdone.  I will have to lower it again for my next attempt.

Next batch will be 43/15 and a longer rise.


This formulation was:
Trumps - 100% -500g
Water - 42%
Soybean oil - 18%
Salt - 1.5%
Sugar - 2.0% (I lowered mine to prevent too much browning from long bake)
IDY - 3/4 tsp (Not sure how much)
Final dough ball:  813g
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 06:36:21 PM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Tampa

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1618
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2014, 05:25:05 PM »
Ok here we go.
Dang!  Two questions: Do you have any leftovers?  What is the drive time from me to you?
Dave


Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2014, 06:08:31 PM »
Dang!  Two questions: Do you have any leftovers?  What is the drive time from me to you?
Dave

Thanks Dave.  You in Tampa?
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2014, 06:39:44 PM »
Nate,

Very nice job, Mr. Natural. I hope that doesn't mean that we will have to refer you to this thread  :-D: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29933.0 .

As for the Parmesan & Romano Blend, I viewed the ingredients list for that blend as follows:

Parmesan & Romano Blend: Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized Part-Skim Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes), Pecorino Romano Cheese (Pasteurized Sheep's Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes).

So, I see only one recitation of the Parmesan & Romano Blend, not two. Part of the confusion may be attributed to the usual sloppiness that Giordano's visits upon us.

Peter


Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2014, 06:43:25 PM »
Nate,

Very nice job, Mr. Natural. I hope that doesn't mean that we will have to refer you to this thread  :-D: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29933.0 .

As for the Parmesan & Romano Blend, I viewed the ingredients list for that blend as follows:

Parmesan & Romano Blend: Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized Part-Skim Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes), Pecorino Romano Cheese (Pasteurized Sheep's Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes).

So, I see only one recitation of the Parmesan & Romano Blend, not two. Part of the confusion may be attributed to the usual sloppiness that Giordano's visits upon us.

Peter

You are right.  I misread.  I also gained about 10lbs in last 2 weeks from all this Chicago pizza!
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2014, 08:43:04 PM »
I also gained about 10lbs in last 2 weeks from all this Chicago pizza!

Nate,

I agree you did a very nice job on your last pie!   ;D  Lol, about gaining 10 lbs. in the last two weeks from all of the Chicago style pizzas you are making. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2014, 10:02:46 PM »
Nate,

I agree you did a very nice job on your last pie!   ;D  Lol, about gaining 10 lbs. in the last two weeks from all of the Chicago style pizzas you are making. 

Norma

Thanks Norma.  Been trying really hard to get this pie right.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2014, 11:20:17 AM »
Trying another formulation today.  I went back to look at my pizza before my previous one because that one tasted like the real deal.  The things I changed were the sugar, oil, hydration and yeast%.  I also added more margarine to the deep dish pan on my last attempt which most likely attributed to the overly crisp bottom crust.

PizzaGarage thinks there is some margarine in this dough so I decided to add some too see what happens.

Here is today's 9 inch formulation:

500g HG Flour
210g water - 42%
7.5g salt - 1.5%
12.5g sugar - 2.5%
(60g soybean, 10g liquid margarine) - 14%
1 tsp IDY



If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline PizzaGarage

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 294
  • Location: Chicago
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2014, 12:06:37 PM »
Personally, I think we might be placing too much emphasis on the ingredients listing for their frozen pizza?

The Stuffed pizza is what put them on the map and what made them famous, if it were me I would not produce a frozen pizza (when I knew I had to list my ingredients by law) on a label for everyone to see.  I would develop a formulation that I was satisfied with, but not provide my trade secrets.  I might also have to change my formulation to work better with frozen products and compete with the lower cost frozen pizza market.  It would not make sense to have everyone see what makes my products special.  Basically, enabling others to compete with me.   That would be reckless.

In the listing below (posted in another thread), they made a mistake on the rice flour for sure, and they twisted the wording in bold below.  They are specifically singling out the Stuffed and mentioning Margarine. The "Margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans"" is rather interesting what do they mean?

Margarine in sausage, in pepperoni? Used to saute onions or green peppers? Margarine in the Mushrooms?

It says "IN" all ingredients - not to saute or to roast ingredients...

Flour is an ingredient, and the line could mean the Margarine IN the ingredient Flour.  That would put Margarine in the dough formulation.


September 24,2013 Giordano’s Famous Stuffed Cheese Pizza features the following three (3) cheeses: Mozzarella, Parmesan and Romano. Please Note: Giordano’s uses Mozzarella cheese that is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes), which originate in microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources; whereas, the Parmesan and Romano cheeses may contain rennets (enzymes) that originate in animal sources. Giordano’s Thin Crust Cheese Pizza features only Mozzarella Cheese, which is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes) originating in either microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources. Giordano’s pizza dough contains rice flour, yeast, soy vegetable oil, water, sugar and salt. The crust (dough) of Giordano’s Stuffed Pizza is made with 100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil. The margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans is also a certified koshered margarine. Giordano’s Pizza Sauce for both the stuffed pizza and the thin crust, along with our Marinara Sauce (pasta), is not by made from any animal by-products. I hope I was able to answer your question. Thank you for contacting Giordano’s! Customer Service www.giordanos.com

The same website also stated:  MCG is the Muslim Consumer Group

"MCG tried very hard to get the technical information from Giordano Pizza Company without any success because there is no technical person works for this pizza company and they always refer to store manager who have no knowledge. He only says the their ingredients are natural and will not allow inside to look at ingredients cases.
So MCG advises Chicago area Muslims not to consume Giordano Cheese Pizza"

If the ingredients are listed on the Frozen pizza label, why then wouldn't Giordanos just let the MCG know those are in fact what's in the pizza.  MCG is asking for ingredients, its states they tired very hard - so what is Giordanos withholding?

I think their "Secret" is Margarine in the dough and they don't want anyone to know.

Just my 2 cents.....
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 12:10:30 PM by PizzaGarage »

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2606
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2014, 01:24:17 PM »
Personally, I think we might be placing too much emphasis on the ingredients listing for their frozen pizza?

The Stuffed pizza is what put them on the map and what made them famous, if it were me I would not produce a frozen pizza (when I knew I had to list my ingredients by law) on a label for everyone to see.  I would develop a formulation that I was satisfied with, but not provide my trade secrets.  I might also have to change my formulation to work better with frozen products and compete with the lower cost frozen pizza market.  It would not make sense to have everyone see what makes my products special.  Basically, enabling others to compete with me.   That would be reckless.

In the listing below (posted in another thread), they made a mistake on the rice flour for sure, and they twisted the wording in bold below.  They are specifically singling out the Stuffed and mentioning Margarine. The "Margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans"" is rather interesting what do they mean?

Margarine in sausage, in pepperoni? Used to saute onions or green peppers? Margarine in the Mushrooms?

It says "IN" all ingredients - not to saute or to roast ingredients...

Flour is an ingredient, and the line could mean the Margarine IN the ingredient Flour.  That would put Margarine in the dough formulation.


September 24,2013 Giordano’s Famous Stuffed Cheese Pizza features the following three (3) cheeses: Mozzarella, Parmesan and Romano. Please Note: Giordano’s uses Mozzarella cheese that is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes), which originate in microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources; whereas, the Parmesan and Romano cheeses may contain rennets (enzymes) that originate in animal sources. Giordano’s Thin Crust Cheese Pizza features only Mozzarella Cheese, which is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes) originating in either microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources. Giordano’s pizza dough contains rice flour, yeast, soy vegetable oil, water, sugar and salt. The crust (dough) of Giordano’s Stuffed Pizza is made with 100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil. The margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans is also a certified koshered margarine. Giordano’s Pizza Sauce for both the stuffed pizza and the thin crust, along with our Marinara Sauce (pasta), is not by made from any animal by-products. I hope I was able to answer your question. Thank you for contacting Giordano’s! Customer Service www.giordanos.com

The same website also stated:  MCG is the Muslim Consumer Group

"MCG tried very hard to get the technical information from Giordano Pizza Company without any success because there is no technical person works for this pizza company and they always refer to store manager who have no knowledge. He only says the their ingredients are natural and will not allow inside to look at ingredients cases.
So MCG advises Chicago area Muslims not to consume Giordano Cheese Pizza"

If the ingredients are listed on the Frozen pizza label, why then wouldn't Giordanos just let the MCG know those are in fact what's in the pizza.  MCG is asking for ingredients, its states they tired very hard - so what is Giordanos withholding?

I think their "Secret" is Margarine in the dough and they don't want anyone to know.

Just my 2 cents.....

PG,

By "in all ingredients" I think they were talking about just the section of their ingredient list as a whole.  I agree there is margarine too because the ingredients list liquid and partially hydrogenated kosher margarine in there.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.


 

pizzapan