Author Topic: Giordanos - Cracking The Code  (Read 4580 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2014, 05:05:12 PM »
Ok here we go.

Thoughts: Too much oil and not enough ferment time.  The magical dough flavor I had yesterday was taken over by the increase of oil.  However the thinness of this dough helped out the texture much better.  I dropped the bake time to 31 mins but this one cooked faster than the previous and bottom was a little overdone.  I will have to lower it again for my next attempt.

Next batch will be 43/15 and a longer rise.


This formulation was:
Trumps - 100% -500g
Water - 42%
Soybean oil - 18%
Salt - 1.5%
Sugar - 2.0% (I lowered mine to prevent too much browning from long bake)
IDY - 3/4 tsp (Not sure how much)
Final dough ball:  813g
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 06:36:21 PM by pythonic »
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Offline Tampa

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2014, 05:25:05 PM »
Ok here we go.
Dang!  Two questions: Do you have any leftovers?  What is the drive time from me to you?
Dave

Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2014, 06:08:31 PM »
Dang!  Two questions: Do you have any leftovers?  What is the drive time from me to you?
Dave

Thanks Dave.  You in Tampa?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2014, 06:39:44 PM »
Nate,

Very nice job, Mr. Natural. I hope that doesn't mean that we will have to refer you to this thread  :-D: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29933.0 .

As for the Parmesan & Romano Blend, I viewed the ingredients list for that blend as follows:

Parmesan & Romano Blend: Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized Part-Skim Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes), Pecorino Romano Cheese (Pasteurized Sheep's Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes).

So, I see only one recitation of the Parmesan & Romano Blend, not two. Part of the confusion may be attributed to the usual sloppiness that Giordano's visits upon us.

Peter


Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2014, 06:43:25 PM »
Nate,

Very nice job, Mr. Natural. I hope that doesn't mean that we will have to refer you to this thread  :-D: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29933.0 .

As for the Parmesan & Romano Blend, I viewed the ingredients list for that blend as follows:

Parmesan & Romano Blend: Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized Part-Skim Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes), Pecorino Romano Cheese (Pasteurized Sheep's Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes).

So, I see only one recitation of the Parmesan & Romano Blend, not two. Part of the confusion may be attributed to the usual sloppiness that Giordano's visits upon us.

Peter

You are right.  I misread.  I also gained about 10lbs in last 2 weeks from all this Chicago pizza!
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Offline norma427

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2014, 08:43:04 PM »
I also gained about 10lbs in last 2 weeks from all this Chicago pizza!

Nate,

I agree you did a very nice job on your last pie!   ;D  Lol, about gaining 10 lbs. in the last two weeks from all of the Chicago style pizzas you are making. 

Norma
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2014, 10:02:46 PM »
Nate,

I agree you did a very nice job on your last pie!   ;D  Lol, about gaining 10 lbs. in the last two weeks from all of the Chicago style pizzas you are making. 

Norma

Thanks Norma.  Been trying really hard to get this pie right.

Nate
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2014, 11:20:17 AM »
Trying another formulation today.  I went back to look at my pizza before my previous one because that one tasted like the real deal.  The things I changed were the sugar, oil, hydration and yeast%.  I also added more margarine to the deep dish pan on my last attempt which most likely attributed to the overly crisp bottom crust.

PizzaGarage thinks there is some margarine in this dough so I decided to add some too see what happens.

Here is today's 9 inch formulation:

500g HG Flour
210g water - 42%
7.5g salt - 1.5%
12.5g sugar - 2.5%
(60g soybean, 10g liquid margarine) - 14%
1 tsp IDY



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Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2014, 12:06:37 PM »
Personally, I think we might be placing too much emphasis on the ingredients listing for their frozen pizza?

The Stuffed pizza is what put them on the map and what made them famous, if it were me I would not produce a frozen pizza (when I knew I had to list my ingredients by law) on a label for everyone to see.  I would develop a formulation that I was satisfied with, but not provide my trade secrets.  I might also have to change my formulation to work better with frozen products and compete with the lower cost frozen pizza market.  It would not make sense to have everyone see what makes my products special.  Basically, enabling others to compete with me.   That would be reckless.

In the listing below (posted in another thread), they made a mistake on the rice flour for sure, and they twisted the wording in bold below.  They are specifically singling out the Stuffed and mentioning Margarine. The "Margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans"" is rather interesting what do they mean?

Margarine in sausage, in pepperoni? Used to saute onions or green peppers? Margarine in the Mushrooms?

It says "IN" all ingredients - not to saute or to roast ingredients...

Flour is an ingredient, and the line could mean the Margarine IN the ingredient Flour.  That would put Margarine in the dough formulation.


September 24,2013 Giordano’s Famous Stuffed Cheese Pizza features the following three (3) cheeses: Mozzarella, Parmesan and Romano. Please Note: Giordano’s uses Mozzarella cheese that is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes), which originate in microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources; whereas, the Parmesan and Romano cheeses may contain rennets (enzymes) that originate in animal sources. Giordano’s Thin Crust Cheese Pizza features only Mozzarella Cheese, which is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes) originating in either microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources. Giordano’s pizza dough contains rice flour, yeast, soy vegetable oil, water, sugar and salt. The crust (dough) of Giordano’s Stuffed Pizza is made with 100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil. The margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans is also a certified koshered margarine. Giordano’s Pizza Sauce for both the stuffed pizza and the thin crust, along with our Marinara Sauce (pasta), is not by made from any animal by-products. I hope I was able to answer your question. Thank you for contacting Giordano’s! Customer Service www.giordanos.com

The same website also stated:  MCG is the Muslim Consumer Group

"MCG tried very hard to get the technical information from Giordano Pizza Company without any success because there is no technical person works for this pizza company and they always refer to store manager who have no knowledge. He only says the their ingredients are natural and will not allow inside to look at ingredients cases.
So MCG advises Chicago area Muslims not to consume Giordano Cheese Pizza"

If the ingredients are listed on the Frozen pizza label, why then wouldn't Giordanos just let the MCG know those are in fact what's in the pizza.  MCG is asking for ingredients, its states they tired very hard - so what is Giordanos withholding?

I think their "Secret" is Margarine in the dough and they don't want anyone to know.

Just my 2 cents.....
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 12:10:30 PM by PizzaGarage »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2014, 01:24:17 PM »
Personally, I think we might be placing too much emphasis on the ingredients listing for their frozen pizza?

The Stuffed pizza is what put them on the map and what made them famous, if it were me I would not produce a frozen pizza (when I knew I had to list my ingredients by law) on a label for everyone to see.  I would develop a formulation that I was satisfied with, but not provide my trade secrets.  I might also have to change my formulation to work better with frozen products and compete with the lower cost frozen pizza market.  It would not make sense to have everyone see what makes my products special.  Basically, enabling others to compete with me.   That would be reckless.

In the listing below (posted in another thread), they made a mistake on the rice flour for sure, and they twisted the wording in bold below.  They are specifically singling out the Stuffed and mentioning Margarine. The "Margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans"" is rather interesting what do they mean?

Margarine in sausage, in pepperoni? Used to saute onions or green peppers? Margarine in the Mushrooms?

It says "IN" all ingredients - not to saute or to roast ingredients...

Flour is an ingredient, and the line could mean the Margarine IN the ingredient Flour.  That would put Margarine in the dough formulation.


September 24,2013 Giordano’s Famous Stuffed Cheese Pizza features the following three (3) cheeses: Mozzarella, Parmesan and Romano. Please Note: Giordano’s uses Mozzarella cheese that is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes), which originate in microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources; whereas, the Parmesan and Romano cheeses may contain rennets (enzymes) that originate in animal sources. Giordano’s Thin Crust Cheese Pizza features only Mozzarella Cheese, which is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes) originating in either microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources. Giordano’s pizza dough contains rice flour, yeast, soy vegetable oil, water, sugar and salt. The crust (dough) of Giordano’s Stuffed Pizza is made with 100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil. The margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans is also a certified koshered margarine. Giordano’s Pizza Sauce for both the stuffed pizza and the thin crust, along with our Marinara Sauce (pasta), is not by made from any animal by-products. I hope I was able to answer your question. Thank you for contacting Giordano’s! Customer Service www.giordanos.com

The same website also stated:  MCG is the Muslim Consumer Group

"MCG tried very hard to get the technical information from Giordano Pizza Company without any success because there is no technical person works for this pizza company and they always refer to store manager who have no knowledge. He only says the their ingredients are natural and will not allow inside to look at ingredients cases.
So MCG advises Chicago area Muslims not to consume Giordano Cheese Pizza"

If the ingredients are listed on the Frozen pizza label, why then wouldn't Giordanos just let the MCG know those are in fact what's in the pizza.  MCG is asking for ingredients, its states they tired very hard - so what is Giordanos withholding?

I think their "Secret" is Margarine in the dough and they don't want anyone to know.

Just my 2 cents.....

PG,

By "in all ingredients" I think they were talking about just the section of their ingredient list as a whole.  I agree there is margarine too because the ingredients list liquid and partially hydrogenated kosher margarine in there.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2014, 02:18:06 PM »
This dough is looking nice :)
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2014, 03:34:50 PM »
We are in the oven.  This dough was much easier to assemble.  Getting better with knife at top too.
Crossing fingers.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2014, 03:52:56 PM »
Had to pull it at 28mins.  Looks good.  Even grated the parm myself with a knife.  Hopefully we made some progress with the dough hydration and crumb.  Oh I was about 3oz short on the Mozz since these experiments have been running me dry.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2014, 04:09:42 PM »
Well....too much margarine I think.  Should went with like 2-3%.  I also used a lower protein flour as well (13%).  The crumb is more flaky and shows signs of layers but the light and airiness just not there.  We are so close though flavor wise.  The layers are clear in the last pic. 

For next batch I will go with 43-44% hydration with 13-13.5% protein, 13% oil.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 04:21:25 PM by pythonic »
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2014, 04:29:52 PM »
Here is a good crumb shot of how close we are.  What do u say folks?  Less oil and roll out a tad thicker?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2014, 06:52:04 PM »
Personally, I think we might be placing too much emphasis on the ingredients listing for their frozen pizza?

The Stuffed pizza is what put them on the map and what made them famous, if it were me I would not produce a frozen pizza (when I knew I had to list my ingredients by law) on a label for everyone to see.  I would develop a formulation that I was satisfied with, but not provide my trade secrets.  I might also have to change my formulation to work better with frozen products and compete with the lower cost frozen pizza market.  It would not make sense to have everyone see what makes my products special.  Basically, enabling others to compete with me.   That would be reckless.

In the listing below (posted in another thread), they made a mistake on the rice flour for sure, and they twisted the wording in bold below.  They are specifically singling out the Stuffed and mentioning Margarine. The "Margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans"" is rather interesting what do they mean?

Margarine in sausage, in pepperoni? Used to saute onions or green peppers? Margarine in the Mushrooms?

It says "IN" all ingredients - not to saute or to roast ingredients...

Flour is an ingredient, and the line could mean the Margarine IN the ingredient Flour.  That would put Margarine in the dough formulation.


September 24,2013 Giordano’s Famous Stuffed Cheese Pizza features the following three (3) cheeses: Mozzarella, Parmesan and Romano. Please Note: Giordano’s uses Mozzarella cheese that is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes), which originate in microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources; whereas, the Parmesan and Romano cheeses may contain rennets (enzymes) that originate in animal sources. Giordano’s Thin Crust Cheese Pizza features only Mozzarella Cheese, which is made with non-animal rennets (enzymes) originating in either microbial (synthetic) or vegetable sources. Giordano’s pizza dough contains rice flour, yeast, soy vegetable oil, water, sugar and salt. The crust (dough) of Giordano’s Stuffed Pizza is made with 100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil. The margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans is also a certified koshered margarine. Giordano’s Pizza Sauce for both the stuffed pizza and the thin crust, along with our Marinara Sauce (pasta), is not by made from any animal by-products. I hope I was able to answer your question. Thank you for contacting Giordano’s! Customer Service www.giordanos.com

The same website also stated:  MCG is the Muslim Consumer Group

"MCG tried very hard to get the technical information from Giordano Pizza Company without any success because there is no technical person works for this pizza company and they always refer to store manager who have no knowledge. He only says the their ingredients are natural and will not allow inside to look at ingredients cases.
So MCG advises Chicago area Muslims not to consume Giordano Cheese Pizza"

If the ingredients are listed on the Frozen pizza label, why then wouldn't Giordanos just let the MCG know those are in fact what's in the pizza.  MCG is asking for ingredients, its states they tired very hard - so what is Giordanos withholding?

I think their "Secret" is Margarine in the dough and they don't want anyone to know.

Just my 2 cents.....

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2014, 07:00:00 PM »
Here is a good crumb shot of how close we are.  What do u say folks?  Less oil and roll out a tad thicker?
I agree with your assessment Nate.
Keep up the great work!!  :chef:

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2014, 07:52:41 PM »
PizzaGarage,

Today, at Reply 93 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg301657#msg301657, I asked Nate where he got the information on the heart shaped Giordano's pizza that gave birth to that thread. The reason I asked was because I wanted to know if the pizza was a frozen mail order pizza. Nate's answer was that it was a frozen mail order pizza. On that score, all I can tell you is what Giordano's told me, as I reported on the matter of how the frozen pizzas are made, including the ingredients, at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg299582#msg299582, to wit:

Please Note:    All of Giordano’s Pizzas (including our “Ship a Pizza”) are made using the same ingredients.

The above comment was in response to a question that I had posed to Giordano's on whether the mail order stuffed pizzas were made in the same way and used the same ingredients as the stuffed pizzas made in Giordano's stores.

As for the way that ingredients are usually listed in ingredients lists, there are two ways that seem to be the most common. The first is to list all ingredients in order by weight, going from the heaviest ingredients to the lightest. In this method, all major components, like dough, sauce and cheese, can be intermixed on the basis of their weights. The second method is to keep the major component separate, without regard for weight, but list the subsidiary ingredients for each major component. In looking at the ingredients list at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg297991#msg297991, I concluded that Giordano's used the second approach. The reason I say this is because the Dough Additive appears in the ingredients list ahead of the Sauce. I think it is safe to say that the Sugar, Salt and Yeast do not collectively weigh more than the sauce. But if the margarine is used only to grease the pans, its weight would be more than the weight of the Dough Additive. It's crazy, I know.

With respect to the trade secret issue, I do not see much of a risk in listing the ingredients in the packaging materials for the Giordano's mail order pizzas. I would agree with you that the risks would be greater if Nutrition Facts were also provided. In this vein, I have more than once asked our members to share with me any nutrition information that accompanied their frozen Giordano's stuffed pizzas. I got nothing. I finally came to the conclusion that maybe Giordano's was exempted under FDA rules and regulations from providing such nutrition information. Such exemptions are listed toward the end of the document at http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=563f0b6235da3f4c7912a64cbceec305&rgn=div8&view=text&node=21:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.6&idno=21. So, if Giordano's sales of mail order pizzas are below the stated threshold in the foregoing CFR, or if the Giordano's unit that handles such sales is small potatoes from an employee standpoint, then they do not have to provide Nutrition Facts. Further to this matter, I personally will not attempt to reverse engineer and clone a given pizza on an ingredients list alone. It is simply not enough information. And even with nutrition information, reverse engineering and cloning a given pizza is problematic, often because there are ways for people to game the FDA rules and regulations, and the people who do so know that the FDA does not have the resources to go after them.

Keep in mind also that many pizza doughs comprise flour, water, soybean oil, yeast, salt and sugar. For example, Papa John's dough has those same ingredients yet their final product is unlike a Giordano's stuffed pizza crust.

As for what the language "The margarine used in all ingredients as well as to coat our pizza pans" means, when I first saw that language, I, too, wondered what it meant. So, I decided to look at the Giordano's menu to see if there were other places besides greasing the pans for the stuffed pizzas where the margarine might be used. I looked at the menu at the Giordano's website at http://giordanos.com/the-menu/. It wasn't until I reached the sandwiches part of the menu where I saw several references to "toasted garlic ciabatta bread" and "toasted garlic Italian roll". I am no expert on garlic bread, so I did a Google search for recipes for garlic bread. For all the recipes I found, the garlic spread involved using butter or margarine. That led me to re-read the menu. This time, I looked for the word "butter", or something equivalent to it. I found neither. So, if a garlic spread is used at Giordano's and a fat is used, it most likely is margarine. And it may as well be a Koshered margarine.

Peter

 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 11:15:15 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2014, 08:23:43 PM »
Well....too much margarine I think.  Should went with like 2-3%.  I also used a lower protein flour as well (13%).  The crumb is more flaky and shows signs of layers but the light and airiness just not there.  We are so close though flavor wise.  The layers are clear in the last pic. 

For next batch I will go with 43-44% hydration with 13-13.5% protein, 13% oil.
What flour was used on this one and what oil % on the last one? Thanks.

Bob
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Offline norma427

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Re: Giordanos - Cracking The Code
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2014, 08:31:02 PM »
Nate,

Your attempt today looks great to me.  8) I wish I knew more how a real Giordano's pizza tasted in the texture of the crust. 

I still wonder about butter being the lubicating agent for a pan by the post of a former employee of Giordano's at reddit food.  NorthAve. said more butter was needed in the second post in this link.  http://www.reddit.com/r/food/comments/17t3zi/after_multiple_tries_i_finally_replicated/  I also read elsewhere and from NorthAve that the edges of the dough need curled. 

Do you curl your edges at all? 

Norma
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