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Offline norma427

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My Giordano's attempt
« on: February 09, 2014, 08:25:20 AM »
For my attempt at a Giordano's pizza I mostly relied on BTB's posts and photos at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8361.msg72200#msg72200 (especially noting how their dough look irregular and not formed into dough balls). 

I also noted the photos at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8361.msg85140#msg85140  and the photos at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8361.msg85143#msg85143 BTB posted the dough skins were very stiff and dry.

I had no idea of what TF to use so I will eye ball of what I think might be a good TF when rolling the dough.  This is the formulation I used in the photo below for a 12 pan.  I am still not sure I understand how to use the Deep-Dish calculation tool but I did the best that I could. 

The dough was mixed on Friday by dumping the flour, ADY, sugar and salt into the mixer bowl and using the flat beater to mix them some.   Then the water and oil were added together and the dough was mixed for 4 minutes with the flat beater.  Next the dough hook was used to mix the dough for 3 more minutes.  I did use cold water out of the fridge and also put the vegetable oil in the freezer for hr. to see if that would help get some specks of different colors in the final dough.  That seemed to work okay. 

This is what the dough looks like since it has been cold fermenting this morning (in the second to last photo) and the other photos from yesterday and Friday.  The dough ball was not oiled.

Although the dough ball does not look like it fermented much I will be making the attempt at a Giordano's pizza later today.  The dough does smell yeasty and I don't understand how that could be since it does not look like it is fermenting much at all.  Since I added the ADY dry without being hydrated I can understand why the dough might now be fermenting much.  The high amount of vegetable oil also might be preventing the dough ball from fermenting more.

Norma
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Offline pythonic

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2014, 09:14:49 AM »
Norma,

Sorry I didn't get back to about the TF sooner.  I would definitely roll it out to under 1/4 inch though.  Mine was too thick.  I'm liking the color and texture of yours.  Seems like the 45% hydration may be spot on.  It really needs to bake for 35mins though so u may need to put screen on stone and bake in that to prevent bottom browning.  Can't wait for the pics.

Nate
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2014, 10:55:04 AM »
Norma,

Lately, I have been rereading some of the older Giordano's threads to refresh my memory. Also, I have been revisiting the nutrition information and ingredients list as originally posted at Reply 85 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5674.msg53610#msg53610. I am not done with my review but I have some observations that might be useful to you and other members.

First, I believe that your dough formulation should be a workable one. I am not sure about the thickness factor but, as Nate mentioned, you should roll out the skin to the desired thickness, and hopefully that will give you the desired results. I am also not sure of the sugar quantity. Based on my analysis of the data mentioned above, my calculated sugar quantity is much larger than the 2% value that you are testing. Since it is quite possible that the pizzas that yielded the data in Reply 85 referenced above were analyzed by a laboratory rather than just using specialized software, the Sugars may have reflected the conversion of starch to sugars over the period of the fermentation. But, if Giordano's is still using a roughly 3-4 day cold fermentation period, I think it would be wise to add some sugar to the dough at the outset to be sure that there is enough residual sugar at at the time of the bake to get good crust coloration.

Second, as to the yellow splotches that BTB showed, if you go to about 1:11 in the video shown at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yOtvj6_5GY, you will see the same splotches. As I surmised before, I think those splotches represent random drying out of parts of the skin surface, possibly during the dusting of dough balls that have a fair amount of oil in them and running them through the dough rollers. At this point, I wouldn't worry if you can't recreate those splotches. It may be entirely a random event.

Third, there has been some mention of the use of butter in the pans. No doubt, at some point someone in the Giordano's business, including franchisees, may have used butter to grease the pans. And, maybe somewhere someone is still doing that. However, at the stores in the Chicago area, I suspect that margarine is the fat used to grease the pans. In another Giordano's thread recently, I believe that it was Nate who interpreted the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WohsBbRcxd0&feature=youtube_gdata to suggest that the pans were greased with butter. The host of the video, Justin, mentions at 2:11 that Gino, the Giordano's district manager, is "buttering" the pans. However, you will note that Gino himself does not use the the term "butter". Instead, at 2:31, he mentions getting a "buttery" crust. However, that does not necessarily mean a butter crust. The term "buttery" means something that contains or tastes like butter. And, in this vein, just about every margarine product includes artificial and/or real flavors. Under FDA rules, as I understand them, artificial and/or real flavors means something that has a butter flavor. If it is another flavor that is intended, such as a garlic flavor, that flavor has to be identified.

Fourth, as to the mozzarella cheeses and tomatoes that Giordano's is currently using, I believe that Giordano's is still using Saputo mozzarella cheeses and Escalon tomatoes. I say this because Saputo and Heinz were creditors in the Giordano's bankruptcy proceedings. Companies do not abandon customer accounts because the customers went bankrupt. To them, a sale is a sale and you don't let bankrupt customers who come out of bankruptcy to go to competitors. Also, in this case, one of the major reasons that Giordano's went bankrupt was not because of the underlying fundamentals of the pizza business but rather because the former owner made ill advised, ill-fated substantial real estate investments in Florida just before the real estate market there collapsed. So, I believe that Giordano's may still be using the Stella mozzarella cheese and the Escalon tomatoes. Recently, at Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg300325;topicseen#msg300325, I provided links to the two Stella mozzarella cheeses that I believe Giordano's is using. I also provided links to the Frigo and Dragone mozzarella cheeses that have very similar Nutrition Facts as the Stella products. Both of those brands are also Saputo brands.

As for the tomatoes that Giordano's may currently be using, I would say that they are using a mix of 6-in-1 ground tomatoes and Bella Rossa whole pear tomatoes. The Nutrition Facts for the 6-in-1s can be seen by clicking on the 6-in-1 nutrition link at http://www.heinzfoodservice.com/escalon-pouch. As for the Bella Rossa tomatoes, the best Nutrition Facts that I could find for that product is at http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-bella-rossa-tomatoes-i260563.

To the foregoing, I should also note that the above Saputo and Escalon products appear to satisfy the descriptions of the tomato products that Nate brought to our attention in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.0.

Finally, I am not convinced that Giordano's is using what we, as knowledgeable people about flours, know as high gluten flour. However, I am not able to prove that Giordano's is not using what we consider to be a high gluten flour. I am keeping this door open because Giordano's told Norma that they were using high gluten flour but told me that they were using all-purpose flour. All-purpose flours can have a wide range of protein/gluten values and I can see how someone who is not well versed in flours might deem an all-purpose flour that is on the high side protein/gluten wise to be a "high gluten flour". In this vein, Ceresota/Heckers has long noted that their all-purpose flour is higher in protein than competitive brands. I could well be wrong on my analysis and that is why I am keeping that door open for now.

Peter


Offline pythonic

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2014, 12:12:38 PM »
Peter,

The flour question is still up in the air since G's told Norma they use a "higher" gluten flour.  To me that could range anywhere from bread to hi gluten.

Have you ever tried fresh cake yeast before? Does it give the dough a much different flavor then ADY or IDY?

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline norma427

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2014, 12:14:20 PM »
Norma,

Sorry I didn't get back to about the TF sooner.  I would definitely roll it out to under 1/4 inch though.  Mine was too thick.  I'm liking the color and texture of yours.  Seems like the 45% hydration may be spot on.  It really needs to bake for 35mins though so u may need to put screen on stone and bake in that to prevent bottom browning.  Can't wait for the pics.

Nate

Nate,

That is okay you didn't get back to me on the TF.  Thanks for telling me how thin to roll it.  Thanks also for telling me how long to bake and I might need to put a screen on the stone to prevent bottom crust browning.  What rack position did you use?  Did you use real butter in your pan in your last attempt?  I probably won't be trying out my dough until after dinner because I am going to see my mother this afternoon.

Norma
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Offline pythonic

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2014, 12:26:09 PM »
Nate,

That is okay you didn't get back to me on the TF.  Thanks for telling me how thin to roll it.  Thanks also for telling me how long to bake and I might need to put a screen on the stone to prevent bottom crust browning.  What rack position did you use?  Did you use real butter in your pan in your last attempt?  I probably won't be trying out my dough until after dinner because I am going to see my mother this afternoon.

Norma

I used the center rack and I greased pan with imperial margarine. 
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Offline norma427

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2014, 12:37:06 PM »
Norma,

Lately, I have been rereading some of the older Giordano's threads to refresh my memory. Also, I have been revisiting the nutrition information and ingredients list as originally posted at Reply 85 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5674.msg53610#msg53610. I am not done with my review but I have some observations that might be useful to you and other members.

First, I believe that your dough formulation should be a workable one. I am not sure about the thickness factor but, as Nate mentioned, you should roll out the skin to the desired thickness, and hopefully that will give you the desired results. I am also not sure of the sugar quantity. Based on my analysis of the data mentioned above, my calculated sugar quantity is much larger than the 2% value that you are testing. Since it is quite possible that the pizzas that yielded the data in Reply 85 referenced above were analyzed by a laboratory rather than just using specialized software, the Sugars may have reflected the conversion of starch to sugars over the period of the fermentation. But, if Giordano's is still using a roughly 3-4 day cold fermentation period, I think it would be wise to add some sugar to the dough at the outset to be sure that there is enough residual sugar at at the time of the bake to get good crust coloration.

Second, as to the yellow splotches that BTB showed, if you go to about 1:11 in the video shown at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yOtvj6_5GY, you will see the same splotches. As I surmised before, I think those splotches represent random drying out of parts of the skin surface, possibly during the dusting of dough balls that have a fair amount of oil in them and running them through the dough rollers. At this point, I wouldn't worry if you can't recreate those splotches. It may be entirely a random event.

Third, there has been some mention of the use of butter in the pans. No doubt, at some point someone in the Giordano's business, including franchisees, may have used butter to grease the pans. And, maybe somewhere someone is still doing that. However, at the stores in the Chicago area, I suspect that margarine is the fat used to grease the pans. In another Giordano's thread recently, I believe that it was Nate who interpreted the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WohsBbRcxd0&feature=youtube_gdata to suggest that the pans were greased with butter. The host of the video, Justin, mentions at 2:11 that Gino, the Giordano's district manager, is "buttering" the pans. However, you will note that Gino himself does not use the the term "butter". Instead, at 2:31, he mentions getting a "buttery" crust. However, that does not necessarily mean a butter crust. The term "buttery" means something that contains or tastes like butter. And, in this vein, just about every margarine product includes artificial and/or real flavors. Under FDA rules, as I understand them, artificial and/or real flavors means something that has a butter flavor. If it is another flavor that is intended, such as a garlic flavor, that flavor has to be identified.

Fourth, as to the mozzarella cheeses and tomatoes that Giordano's is currently using, I believe that Giordano's is still using Saputo mozzarella cheeses and Escalon tomatoes. I say this because Saputo and Heinz were creditors in the Giordano's bankruptcy proceedings. Companies do not abandon customer accounts because the customers went bankrupt. To them, a sale is a sale and you don't let bankrupt customers who come out of bankruptcy to go to competitors. Also, in this case, one of the major reasons that Giordano's went bankrupt was not because of the underlying fundamentals of the pizza business but rather because the former owner made ill advised, ill-fated substantial real estate investments in Florida just before the real estate market there collapsed. So, I believe that Giordano's may still be using the Stella mozzarella cheese and the Escalon tomatoes. Recently, at Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg300325;topicseen#msg300325, I provided links to the two Stella mozzarella cheeses that I believe Giordano's is using. I also provided links to the Frigo and Dragone mozzarella cheeses that have very similar Nutrition Facts as the Stella products. Both of those brands are also Saputo brands.

As for the tomatoes that Giordano's may currently be using, I would say that they are using a mix of 6-in-1 ground tomatoes and Bella Rossa whole pear tomatoes. The Nutrition Facts for the 6-in-1s can be seen by clicking on the 6-in-1 nutrition link at http://www.heinzfoodservice.com/escalon-pouch. As for the Bella Rossa tomatoes, the best Nutrition Facts that I could find for that product is at http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-bella-rossa-tomatoes-i260563.

To the foregoing, I should also note that the above Saputo and Escalon products appear to satisfy the descriptions of the tomato products that Nate brought to our attention in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.0.

Finally, I am not convinced that Giordano's is using what we, as knowledgeable people about flours, know as high gluten flour. However, I am not able to prove that Giordano's is not using what we consider to be a high gluten flour. I am keeping this door open because Giordano's told Norma that they were using high gluten flour but told me that they were using all-purpose flour. All-purpose flours can have a wide range of protein/gluten values and I can see how someone who is not well versed in flours might deem an all-purpose flour that is on the high side protein/gluten wise to be a "high gluten flour". In this vein, Ceresota/Heckers has long noted that their all-purpose flour is higher in protein than competitive brands. I could well be wrong on my analysis and that is why I am keeping that door open for now.

Peter


Peter,

I also read some of the older Giordano's threads.  Interesting you have been revisiting the nutrition information ingredients list as originally posted by you.  I kind of used that post of yours in deciding what flour to use.  I used the the Pillsbury Patent 4X flour, even though it is bleached and bromated.  I did not understand those number but saw the protein was 12.6%. 

Thanks for you thoughts that you believe my dough formulation should be a workable one.  I will follow Nate's and your advice on the rolling.  I would think my dough would soften up considerably when warming it up.  When it came right out of the mixer it looked something like what BTB posted.     

I will see if I can get some of those yellow splotches. 

I noted Gino did not use the term butter in the video Nate mentioned.  Would you try real butter or the Great Value margarine I have at home? 

Thanks for giving a detailed reply about the mozzarella cheese and tomatoes you think Giordano's is currently using. 

Thanks for your thoughts about the flour that Giordano's might be using too.  I did send another email to Giordano's after my last email asking about Nutrition Facts and a few other questions before I decided if I wanted to order two Giordano's pizza but never get a reply.  I said I would be willing to try a Giordano's pizza even if they were using high gluten flour.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2014, 02:59:04 PM »

The flour question is still up in the air since G's told Norma they use a "higher" gluten flour.  To me that could range anywhere from bread to hi gluten.

Have you ever tried fresh cake yeast before? Does it give the dough a much different flavor then ADY or IDY?

Nate

Nate,

I have been burned so many times by customer service reps that I have learned not to take what they say as the gospel truth. I adopt a trust but verify point of view. If you go to the Mellow Mushroom thread and count how many times Norma and I were given incorrect information by employees of MM and how much incorrect information was handed out by their licensees, you will see why I have learned not to trust anyone that is not in a technical capacity. The same thing happened but to a lesser degree at Buddy's and Home Run Inn.

As for your yeast question, it is almost impossible to get fresh yeast where I live. But, several years ago, Tom Lehmann said that they made doughs with fresh yeast, ADY and IDY at the AIB with the same dough formulation and the same general dough preparation methods (most likely accounting for the different prehydration method for ADY), and using the same dough management, and they could not tell which finished pizza crust had which yeast. In Giordano's case, when they started business in 1974, IDY had been around for about a couple years. ADY was introduced after World War II, and was especially formulated for home use. Fresh yeast is the granddaddy of all commercial yeasts. There are members who swear by fresh yeast, and I am in no position to question their preferences. However, according to Cooks Illustrated, fresh yeast produces more carbon dioxide than the other forms of commercial yeast, as was noted at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14060.msg141140/topicseen.html#msg141140. As for flavor among yeast types, it is usually a quantitative issue, that is, how much you use. ADY might yield more flavor than IDY because it has more dead cells than IDY. You can read more about fresh yeast and the quantitative aspects at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16775.msg166378;topicseen#msg166378.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2014, 03:08:13 PM »
I noted Gino did not use the term butter in the video Nate mentioned.  Would you try real butter or the Great Value margarine I have at home? 
Norma,

Neither is optimum but as between the two choices, I would go with the butter, mainly because butter flavor is the real thing and also because the GV product is relatively high in whey, which might cause premature browning of the crust.

Peter

Offline Garvey

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2014, 04:59:36 PM »
I always worry about the low smoke point of butter for lubing up a pan.  I know you don't have any on hand, but forum member PizzaGarage speaks highly of butter flavored crisco (which, I'd wager, is probably more akin to what they use than butter, which itself is costly, not shelf stable, etc.).

As for the dry spots, was it Aimless Ryan who speculated that it could be dough bits and scraps returned to the mass dough heap after sheeting and cutting in the pan?

Cheers,
Garvey



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2014, 05:31:09 PM »
I always worry about the low smoke point of butter for lubing up a pan.  I know you don't have any on hand, but forum member PizzaGarage speaks highly of butter flavored crisco (which, I'd wager, is probably more akin to what they use than butter, which itself is costly, not shelf stable, etc.).
Maybe Norma can do half and half, and just be sure to code the pan or pizza to know which half is which.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2014, 05:50:07 PM »
I always worry about the low smoke point of butter for lubing up a pan.  I know you don't have any on hand, but forum member PizzaGarage speaks highly of butter flavored crisco (which, I'd wager, is probably more akin to what they use than butter, which itself is costly, not shelf stable, etc.).

Cheers,
Garvey


Garvey,

I don't have any of the butter flavored regular Crisco on hand.  I do have a leftover stick of Crisco Butter Flavor All-Vegetable Shortening from Christmas baking.  I don't know how the Crisco Butter Flavor All-Vegetable Shortening would work.  http://www.crisco.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?groupID=17&prodID=851 Should I try the Crisco Butter Flavor All Shortening on half of the pan and butter on the other half?

Norma
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Offline Garvey

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2014, 06:42:17 PM »
Yes, Norma, I think that's a grand idea to use the crisco you do have (along with Peter's suggestion of the split-half method with butter on the other side).  It's probably very similar and will certainly give you some comparison data. 

Cheers,
Garvey
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 06:44:09 PM by Garvey »

Offline pythonic

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2014, 06:59:27 PM »
Giordanos has kosher margarine listed as an ingredients.  Why are we talking about crisco?  I used margarine on my last attempt and got no burning.

Nate
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Offline pythonic

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2014, 07:12:57 PM »
Hmmm this Giordanos mgr specifically says butter on the pans.

http://vimeo.com/m/20711435
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Offline Garvey

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2014, 07:13:26 PM »
The concern, Nate, was premature browning from the high whey content of the particular brand of margarine Norma has on hand (and PizzaGarage's high praise for crisco).

Offline norma427

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2014, 07:14:20 PM »
Giordanos has kosher margarine listed as an ingredients.  Why are we talking about crisco?  I used margarine on my last attempt and got no burning.

Nate


Nate,

I think we are posting about trying Crisco butter flavored margarine, or the butter flavored Crisco because I don't have anything like the Ventura margarine that Peter posted might be close to the margarine product used by Giordano's heart shaped pizza at Reply 41 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg300319#msg300319

I don't even know if the Crisco butter flavored margarine is okay to try either.

What margarine brand did you use?

Norma
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Offline Garvey

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2014, 07:17:33 PM »
Lube the pan in thirds!

 ;D

Offline norma427

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2014, 07:24:43 PM »
Lube the pan in thirds!

 ;D

Lol Garvey!   :-D  I think I will have enough trouble keeping two lubricating agents separated and know which side had which one.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2014, 08:16:52 PM »
Lube the pan in thirds!

 ;D

Ha ha ha. Actually, there is more whey than salt and water in the GV margarine that Norma has. That means the the whey is in liquid form, not dry, and replaces what would normally be water. As can be seen at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg297991#msg297991, the margarine that Giordano's uses has the whey way down toward the bottom of the ingredients list.

I personally think that butter is too costly to use with the Giordano's pizzas, and I am sure that such is the case notwithstanding what workers say.

Peter

« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 08:18:28 PM by Pete-zza »