Author Topic: My Giordano's attempt  (Read 2411 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PizzaGarage

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 141
  • Location: Chicago
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2014, 09:30:08 PM »
Garvey,

I don't have any of the butter flavored regular Crisco on hand.  I do have a leftover stick of Crisco Butter Flavor All-Vegetable Shortening from Christmas baking.  I don't know how the Crisco Butter Flavor All-Vegetable Shortening would work.  http://www.crisco.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?groupID=17&prodID=851 Should I try the Crisco Butter Flavor All Shortening on half of the pan and butter on the other half?

Norma


The Crisco Butter flavor all vegetable shortening will work perfectly.  This is the same product I use as well as the Sauté and fry which is the liquid form.  Once you grease the pan don't expect to form the dough in the pan or slide it around because it ain't moving! So roll the size you need then fold in half.  Insert the half in the pan, position then open it.  This works well. 

Also, agree at 1.11 on the video and BTB pics those are just dried dough pieces, most likely scraps which were reballed after sitting around for a while.  Or, good dough balls which skinned over then stretched and used.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 09:56:33 PM by PizzaGarage »


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22070
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2014, 09:34:14 PM »
I did a search of the PMQ Think Tank archives and found two posts by Tom Lehmann in which he discusses the use of shortening or margarine to grease the pans for the stuffed pizza style. In one of the posts, he also discusses how he prefers to bake such pizzas. The two posts are as follows:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4410&p=24291&hilit=#p24291

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5208&hilit=#p31031

In the past, for the deep-dish pizza style, as opposed to the stuffed pizza style, Tom has often stated his preference for the Blue Bonnet margarine product: http://www.shoprite.com/pd/Blue-Bonnet/Vegetable-Oil-Sticks/16-oz/029000008229/. The Blue Bonnet product also includes whey but it is far down the list of ingredients.

I did not find any posts by Tom where he recommended butter for greasing the pans for the stuffed pizza style. He may have done so elsewhere but I did not find any posts to that effect.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2014, 09:52:57 PM »
I really have no idea how my Giordano's attempt turned out in comparison to a real Giordano's stuffed crust. 

The dough was easy to roll out and it could have been stretched and thrown.  There was 160 grams of leftover dough after trimming.  Maybe the hydration or oil might need to go up a little.  The ADY amount might also have to be increased.

I did put aluminum foil on the Giordano's attempt for the last 5 minutes of the bake because the rim, side crust and bottom crust seemed baked enough.  A screen was also added at the same time.  The stuffed crust pizza was baked at 555 degrees F for 35 minutes. 

It did not seem to matter if butter or the Crisco butter flavored margarine was used in the browning of the rim, side or bottom crust.  The sides also stuck easily with either.  Some of my photos do not really show how brown the side crusts were. 

There were no specks in the rolled out dough. 

Norma
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 10:08:55 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2014, 09:55:52 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2014, 09:58:22 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2014, 10:03:51 PM »
The Crisco Butter flavor all vegetable shortening will work perfectly.  This is the same product I use as well as the Sauté and fry which is the liquid form.  Once you grease the pan don't expect to form the dough in the pan or slide it around because it ain't moving! So roll the size you need then fold in half.  Insert the half in the pan, position then open it.  This works well. 

Also, agree at 1.11 on the video and BTB pics those are just dried dough pieces, most likely scraps which were reballed after sitting around for a while.  Or, good dough balls which skinned over then stretched and used.

PizzaGarage,

Thanks for posting that the Crisco Butter flavor all vegetable shortening will work perfectly.  Thanks also for posting that you think those specks were just dried dough pieces, or most likely scraps or good dough balls which skinned over.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2014, 10:08:10 PM »
I did a search of the PMQ Think Tank archives and found two posts by Tom Lehmann in which he discusses the use of shortening or margarine to grease the pans for the stuffed pizza style. In one of the posts, he also discusses how he prefers to bake such pizzas. The two posts are as follows:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4410&p=24291&hilit=#p24291

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5208&hilit=#p31031

In the past, for the deep-dish pizza style, as opposed to the stuffed pizza style, Tom has often stated his preference for the Blue Bonnet margarine product: http://www.shoprite.com/pd/Blue-Bonnet/Vegetable-Oil-Sticks/16-oz/029000008229/. The Blue Bonnet product also includes whey but it is far down the list of ingredients.

I did not find any posts by Tom where he recommended butter for greasing the pans for the stuffed pizza style. He may have done so elsewhere but I did not find any posts to that effect.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for doing the search at PMQ Think Tank archives and finding the two posts by Tom Lehmann.  Thanks also for posting that Tom has often stated his preference for Blue Bonnet margarine. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline CDNpielover

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 675
  • Location: Sonoran Desert
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2014, 11:50:07 PM »
Norma, that looks AWESOME!  :chef:

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2111
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2014, 06:42:09 AM »
Very nice job Norma.  Much better than your previous attempts.  That was a very hot bake.  How did the crust taste.   Was it dry and airy?

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2014, 07:16:38 AM »
Norma, that looks AWESOME!  :chef:

CDNpielover,

Thanks!

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2014, 07:24:52 AM »
Very nice job Norma.  Much better than your previous attempts.  That was a very hot bake.  How did the crust taste.   Was it dry and airy?

Nate

Nate,

Thanks!  To me, the crust tasted somewhat bland (not enough salt taste for me).  The crust was dry but I don't know what you mean as how I could describe airy in this style of pizza.  I did not get to taste the stuffed crust for 25 minutes because of my brother calling me.  Maybe because of the cheese and crust sitting for a little I was not able to really describe it right.   

Norma   
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2111
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2014, 07:45:10 AM »
Nate,

Thanks!  To me, the crust tasted somewhat bland (not enough salt taste for me).  The crust was dry but I don't know what you mean as how I could describe airy in this style of pizza.  I did not get to taste the stuffed crust for 25 minutes because of my brother calling me.  Maybe because of the cheese and crust sitting for a little I was not able to really describe it right.   

Norma


Hmmm, I think a 2 to 3 cold rise is optimum for this crust.  I'm also gonna use cake yeast.  What kind of sauce did you use?  Did your crust have any layering at all?  I cut the oil in 1st slowly with my KA.  That seems to make a difference.  It shouldn't be bready at all.

Nate
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 07:49:19 AM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2014, 08:02:41 AM »

Hmmm, I think a 2 to 3 cold rise is optimum for this crust.  I'm also gonna use cake yeast.  What kind of sauce did you use?  Did your crust have any layering at all?  I cut the oil in 1st slowly with my KA.  That seems to make a difference.  It shouldn't be bready at all.

Nate

Nate,

I did do over a 2 day cold ferment for this attempt.  I could not taste any yeasty taste in the crust.  I let the dough warm up for 2 hrs. also.  Maybe I did not use enough yeast in the formulation.  It makes me wonder if I should have used a little higher hydration and maybe a little bit more vegetable oil.  I did see some cake yeast at the one supermarket near me last week.  I do not know if that would give more taste to the crust or not.  I have used cake yeast before and really can't tell any difference in the taste of the final crusts.  I wonder if I should have tried cutting the oil in before adding the water.  Thanks for posting that you cut the oil in first slowly with your Kitchen Aid mixer.

The crust was not bready, but it was not really flaky either.  There was a little layering but don't think it was enough.

Norma   
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2111
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2014, 09:03:39 AM »
You may want to drop the oil% also to around 10-12%.  Did u say you used hi gluten pillsbury flour?   I am making 2 attempts this week.  Going with 45/12 and 45/8.

Have you ever attempted a Lou Malnatis style DD?  My last thread is my best one yet.  I would easily bet money that it would win in a blind test.

Nate
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 09:15:21 AM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2014, 10:17:46 AM »
You may want to drop the oil% also to around 10-12%.  Did u say you used hi gluten pillsbury flour?   I am making 2 attempts this week.  Going with 45/12 and 45/8.

Have you ever attempted a Lou Malnatis style DD?  My last thread is my best one yet.  I would easily bet money that it would win in a blind test.

Nate

Nate,

If you think I should drop the oil amount do you think I then need to increase the hydration?  The reason I am asking is I do not think a drier dough would be better.  The Pillsbury flour I tried was not a really high protein flour.  I do not know when I will have time but I do have some Ceresota flour at home I might try next.

I will be watching your attempts this week to see what happens. 

No, I did not attempt a real Lou Malnatis style DD.  I saw what great results you got on your thread.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22070
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2014, 10:58:13 AM »
Norma,

Was there a reason why you used the ADY in dry form? That is a good method if you want the dough to last several days of cold fermentation, but when used dry it slows down the fermentation process and limits the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor (and color, taste and texture).

As an aside, I did a bit of research on butter this morning. Although butter contains a small amount of milk solids (about 2%), it apparently is very low in whey content. So, there won't be much lactose to increase crust coloration. On the other hand, butter starts to break down at around 160 degrees F, and the milk solids will start to darken as they cook. Can you describe the crust color in a bit more detail, especially at the sides of the pan? I notice that the bottom of the crust seems darker than the sides. Was there a reason why you decided on a bake temperature of 555 degrees F?

Peter

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2111
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2014, 11:34:57 AM »
Nate,

If you think I should drop the oil amount do you think I then need to increase the hydration?  The reason I am asking is I do not think a drier dough would be better.  The Pillsbury flour I tried was not a really high protein flour.  I do not know when I will have time but I do have some Ceresota flour at home I might try next.

I will be watching your attempts this week to see what happens. 

No, I did not attempt a real Lou Malnatis style DD.  I saw what great results you got on your thread.

Norma

Norma.

I think you should use a high gluten flour for your next attempt.  The difference was night and day.  I've tried AP flour and the texture or flavor just isn't right. I used All Trumps at 50/12 last time and it was too soft and moist.  Try a high gluten batch at 45/12 and see what happens.  Let the pizza get nice and brown on top.  Dial your temp down to 465F as well.  You want it too cook as long as possible.

Nate


« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 11:36:56 AM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2014, 04:45:42 PM »
Norma,

Was there a reason why you used the ADY in dry form? That is a good method if you want the dough to last several days of cold fermentation, but when used dry it slows down the fermentation process and limits the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor (and color, taste and texture).

As an aside, I did a bit of research on butter this morning. Although butter contains a small amount of milk solids (about 2%), it apparently is very low in whey content. So, there won't be much lactose to increase crust coloration. On the other hand, butter starts to break down at around 160 degrees F, and the milk solids will start to darken as they cook. Can you describe the crust color in a bit more detail, especially at the sides of the pan? I notice that the bottom of the crust seems darker than the sides. Was there a reason why you decided on a bake temperature of 555 degrees F?

Peter

Peter,

The first reason I used the ADY in dry form was I had planned to try and incorporate the cold soybean oil (out of the freezer) with the flour, ADY, sugar and salt.  I did not want to use any warm water and that is another reason I did not put the ADY into warmer water.  Along the way I got mixed up though and did not add the soybean oil to the flour, ADY, sugar and salt.  I already had dumped the water into the mixer.  Do you think that is why my crust did not have much flavor? 

Thanks for researching about butter this morning. 

I took a leftover slice outside so maybe you might be able to see better what the colors are on the rim and bottom crust.  I really don't think the colors on the rim and bottom crust are that different.

The only reason I baked at 555 degrees F was I was not sure I was baking at the right rack position and I did not want to burn the bottom crust (which I could not see while it was baking).

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2014, 04:50:15 PM »
Norma.

I think you should use a high gluten flour for your next attempt.  The difference was night and day.  I've tried AP flour and the texture or flavor just isn't right. I used All Trumps at 50/12 last time and it was too soft and moist.  Try a high gluten batch at 45/12 and see what happens.  Let the pizza get nice and brown on top.  Dial your temp down to 465F as well.  You want it too cook as long as possible.

Nate

Nate,

I do have some All Trumps flour I could try.  What is the difference in the texture and flavor when using All Trumps instead of AP flour?  I know I botched up on the temperature yesterday.  Thanks for your recommendations! 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21962
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2014, 04:53:52 PM »
The one batch of boardwalk style dough I made today skinned over until I had finished balling a batch on the one dough ball that was not balled.  I could understand maybe that is what might have happened with the dough BTB saw at Giordano's.  I spilled a little oil when when coating the dough balls at market today and took my dough scapper and mixed it with leftover flour from balling the Detroit style dough batch.  I found it interesting how the clumps of oil and flour was easy to do.  I quickly cut the olive oil in with the flour with the dough scrapper.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!