Author Topic: My Giordano's attempt  (Read 2507 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2014, 05:21:26 PM »
Nate,

I do have some All Trumps flour I could try.  What is the difference in the texture and flavor when using All Trumps instead of AP flour?  I know I botched up on the temperature yesterday.  Thanks for your recommendations! 

Norma

AP doesn't look right from the outside (there should be cracking).  The inside should be thick yet light, dry and airy.  AP is too flaky.  Hope this helps.  You can always get a pie shipped because its too hard to explain.

Nate
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2014, 05:44:14 PM »
The first reason I used the ADY in dry form was I had planned to try and incorporate the cold soybean oil (out of the freezer) with the flour, ADY, sugar and salt.  I did not want to use any warm water and that is another reason I did not put the ADY into warmer water.  Along the way I got mixed up though and did not add the soybean oil to the flour, ADY, sugar and salt.  I already had dumped the water into the mixer.  Do you think that is why my crust did not have much flavor? 
Norma,

Technically, all you need in the way of water to prehydrate the ADY is about 5 times the weight of the ADY. Since you used 2.38 grams of ADY, that would be about 11.9 grams of water. That comes to about 5.6% of the total formula water of 214.03 grams. The rest of the formula water could have been kept as cold as you liked, although that would also have had the effect of slowing down the fermentation. Had you let the dough cold ferment for say, four or five days, without using cold water, I think you might have gotten better results because of the increased fermentation byproducts. Using cold water would have further extended the fermentation period and further increased the fermentation byproducts.

I do not think that the small amount of ADY per se would have a noticeable effect on the crust flavor, but the slowed fermentation as mentioned above, whether because of the dry ADY or using cold water, or both, could well have affected the crust flavor in your case. However, I should mention that when I was researching the Giordano's stuffed pizzas, I read several reports of reviewers and diners that complained that the Giordano's crusts were too bland for their taste. Adding more salt might help but based on my analysis several years ago, and also more recently, it does not appear to me that the Giordano's crust has a lot of salt in it. However, the current Stella mozzarella cheeses, and the Escalon tomatoes I mentioned, seem to have more salt today than several years ago when I did my original analysis. That would mean less salt in the dough than what I calculated originally. At the time, I assumed about 13 ounces of the two Stella mozzarella cheeses and about a cup and a half of tomatoes for a 10" pizza. In this vein, I read a lot of complaints that Giordano's uses too little sauce for their stuffed pizzas. When I saw the vimeo video that Nate referenced at http://vimeo.com/m/20711435, it seemed to me that too little sauce was used. BTB has also commented previously that he asks for more sauce on his Giordano's stuffed pizzas. This makes it difficult to know what the standard amount of sauce is at Giordano's for any given size of pizza.

Peter

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2014, 06:03:48 PM »
AP doesn't look right from the outside (there should be cracking).  The inside should be thick yet light, dry and airy.  AP is too flaky.  Hope this helps.  You can always get a pie shipped because its too hard to explain.

Nate

Nate,

Thanks for telling me AP does not look right from the outside and there should be cracking.  Thanks also for explaining the inside should be thick yet light, airy and dry.  Your explanations did help!  I know I can get two pies shipped.  I had thought about doing that, but that is a lot of pizza ingredients I would miss out on purchasing.  :-D  I may rethink about ordering two frozen Giordano's stuffed crusts at some point in time.  I did that when I purchased a Buddy's pizza shipped to me frozen.  I did not get to the point of deciding what to do yet.

Norma
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2014, 06:15:46 PM »
Norma,

Technically, all you need in the way of water to prehydrate the ADY is about 5 times the weight of the ADY. Since you used 2.38 grams of ADY, that would be about 11.9 grams of water. That comes to about 5.6% of the total formula water of 214.03 grams. The rest of the formula water could have been kept as cold as you liked, although that would also have had the effect of slowing down the fermentation. Had you let the dough cold ferment for say, four or five days, without using cold water, I think you might have gotten better results because of the increased fermentation byproducts. Using cold water would have further extended the fermentation period and further increased the fermentation byproducts.

I do not think that the small amount of ADY per se would have a noticeable effect on the crust flavor, but the slowed fermentation as mentioned above, whether because of the dry ADY or using cold water, or both, could well have affected the crust flavor in your case. However, I should mention that when I was researching the Giordano's stuffed pizzas, I read several reports of reviewers and diners that complained that the Giordano's crusts were too bland for their taste. Adding more salt might help but based on my analysis several years ago, and also more recently, it does not appear to me that the Giordano's crust has a lot of salt in it. However, the current Stella mozzarella cheeses, and the Escalon tomatoes I mentioned, seem to have more salt today than several years ago when I did my original analysis. That would mean less salt in the dough than what I calculated originally. At the time, I assumed about 13 ounces of the two Stella mozzarella cheeses and about a cup and a half of tomatoes for a 10" pizza. In this vein, I read a lot of complaints that Giordano's uses too little sauce for their stuffed pizzas. When I saw the vimeo video that Nate referenced at http://vimeo.com/m/20711435, it seemed to me that too little sauce was used. BTB has also commented previously that he asks for more sauce on his Giordano's stuffed pizzas. This makes it difficult to know what the standard amount of sauce is at Giordano's for any given size of pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for explaining how much water I would need to prehydrate the ADY.  I understand from using ADY dry like I did what happens with fermentation.  I made a mistake in doing it the way I did and understand how that could have affected my crust flavor.  Thanks for explaining that from your analysis several years ago, and more recently, it does not appear to you that the Giordano's crust has a lot of salt in it.  I wonder why Stella mozzarellas cheese and Escalon tomatoes seem to have more salt today then several years ago.  I see it is difficult to know what the standard amount of sauce is at Giordano's for any given size pizza.

Norma
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Offline pythonic

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2014, 07:12:52 PM »
Norma,

Technically, all you need in the way of water to prehydrate the ADY is about 5 times the weight of the ADY. Since you used 2.38 grams of ADY, that would be about 11.9 grams of water. That comes to about 5.6% of the total formula water of 214.03 grams. The rest of the formula water could have been kept as cold as you liked, although that would also have had the effect of slowing down the fermentation. Had you let the dough cold ferment for say, four or five days, without using cold water, I think you might have gotten better results because of the increased fermentation byproducts. Using cold water would have further extended the fermentation period and further increased the fermentation byproducts.

I do not think that the small amount of ADY per se would have a noticeable effect on the crust flavor, but the slowed fermentation as mentioned above, whether because of the dry ADY or using cold water, or both, could well have affected the crust flavor in your case. However, I should mention that when I was researching the Giordano's stuffed pizzas, I read several reports of reviewers and diners that complained that the Giordano's crusts were too bland for their taste. Adding more salt might help but based on my analysis several years ago, and also more recently, it does not appear to me that the Giordano's crust has a lot of salt in it. However, the current Stella mozzarella cheeses, and the Escalon tomatoes I mentioned, seem to have more salt today than several years ago when I did my original analysis. That would mean less salt in the dough than what I calculated originally. At the time, I assumed about 13 ounces of the two Stella mozzarella cheeses and about a cup and a half of tomatoes for a 10" pizza. In this vein, I read a lot of complaints that Giordano's uses too little sauce for their stuffed pizzas. When I saw the vimeo video that Nate referenced at http://vimeo.com/m/20711435, it seemed to me that too little sauce was used. BTB has also commented previously that he asks for more sauce on his Giordano's stuffed pizzas. This makes it difficult to know what the standard amount of sauce is at Giordano's for any given size of pizza.

Peter

The little amount of sauce is used for perfect balance.  The crust remember isn't very thick until u get to the end.  The pizza is 80% topping and about 50% of that is a half inch thick layer of cheese.
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2014, 07:34:55 PM »
The little amount of sauce is used for perfect balance.  The crust remember isn't very thick until u get to the end.  The pizza is 80% topping and about 50% of that is a half inch thick layer of cheese.
Nate,

Can you tell me what size pizza is shown in the vimeo video?

Peter

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2014, 07:49:58 PM »
What kind of sauce did you use? 
Nate

Nate,

I forgot to answer your question as the kind of sauce I used.  I used the Saporito super heavy pizza sauce with added ingredients.  I had to add water.  That is the sauce I use at market.  I do have 6-in-1's I could try.

Norma
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Offline pythonic

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2014, 10:55:29 PM »
Nate,

Can you tell me what size pizza is shown in the vimeo video?

Peter


12 inch
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2014, 08:59:30 PM »
I found my scrap dough from my last Giordano's attempt.  I wonder if it still would be good to try something with it tomorrow.  I also wonder if the texture or taste of a crust would change since the scrap dough has been fermenting longer.

Norma
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2014, 05:12:07 PM »
I am making another stab at a Giordano's dough.  I used the Ceresota flour this time.  The ADY was prehydrated.  The water and vegetable oil were normal temperatures.  The vegetable oil was drizzled into flour in about a minute time-frame without the water.  The flat beater was used for the vegetable oil and flour mixing.  The dough was then mixed with the flat beater to get the water incorporated a little.  The dough hook was then used to mix the dough for four minutes.  The dough ball looks shabby now.  I will see what the dough ball looks like in 3 or 4 days, then decide if I want to use this dough on another attempt at a Giordano's pizza.

Norma
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2014, 08:55:59 PM »
I am making another stab at a Giordano's dough.  I used the Ceresota flour this time.  The ADY was prehydrated.  The water and vegetable oil were normal temperatures.  The vegetable oil was drizzled into flour in about a minute time-frame without the water.  The flat beater was used for the vegetable oil and flour mixing.  The dough was then mixed with the flat beater to get the water incorporated a little.  The dough hook was then used to mix the dough for four minutes.  The dough ball looks shabby now.  I will see what the dough ball looks like in 3 or 4 days, then decide if I want to use this dough on another attempt at a Giordano's pizza.

Norma

Norma,

Any reason you went with 49% hydration for this attempt?  The dough doesn't look wet at all so perhaps it will dry up nicely for you in the oven.  Try to make it 1/4 in thick and let's see if you are able to achieve layering.

Nate
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2014, 10:09:59 PM »
Norma,

Any reason you went with 49% hydration for this attempt?  The dough doesn't look wet at all so perhaps it will dry up nicely for you in the oven.  Try to make it 1/4 in thick and let's see if you are able to achieve layering.

Nate

Nate,

There was no reason I went with 49% hydration except to see what kind of dough with a larger amount of water and oil would produce.  The dough was not wet at all, but then I did not let it rest and quickly mixed it.  I really don't know what the effective hydration would be with the amount of oil and water I used.  When trying to form the dough ball (into somewhat of a dough ball) I could feel the oil and guess if I would have let it sit out and messed with it a little more it might have formed a somewhat normal dough ball.  Do you think rolling the bottom crust out to ¼ inch will be thin enough?  If the dough ball does not roll out right I won't make the pizza.

Norma
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2014, 10:24:00 PM »
Norma,

I thought that maybe you went with the 49% hydration so that, together with the 14% oil, which yielded an "effective" hydration of 64%, you would get increased extensibility and allow you to stretch the skin more easily and maybe even toss and spin it as was shown in some of the Giordano's videos. Hopefully your dough will behave well enough for you to see whether the higher hydration is a step in the right direction.

Peter

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2014, 10:49:55 PM »
Norma,

I thought that maybe you went with the 49% hydration so that, together with the 14% oil, which yielded an "effective" hydration of 64%, you would get increased extensibility and allow you to stretch the skin more easily and maybe even toss and spin it as was shown in some of the Giordano's videos. Hopefully your dough will behave well enough for you to see whether the higher hydration is a step in the right direction.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for telling me what the “effective” hydration was.  I also would like to see if I can get increased extensibility to stretch the skin more easily and see if they can be tossed like Giordano's does, but that was not the main reason I used a higher hydration.  My Ceresota flour is about 6 months old (has only been used to feed my Ishcia starter), and I don't know if it is needs more water because it is older and stored in my home where there is not much humidity this time of the year or not.  I seeing the same thing with my doughs at market that they don't feel hydrated as much as they should even when upping the hydration.  I upped the hydration this week for my regular boardwalk doughs and had to add more water.  Same thing with my Detroit style doughs.

Maybe I did not mix enough either for the Giordano's attempt.

Norma
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2014, 10:55:22 PM »
Nate,

There was no reason I went with 49% hydration except to see what kind of dough with a larger amount of water and oil would produce.  The dough was not wet at all, but then I did not let it rest and quickly mixed it.  I really don't know what the effective hydration would be with the amount of oil and water I used.  When trying to form the dough ball (into somewhat of a dough ball) I could feel the oil and guess if I would have let it sit out and messed with it a little more it might have formed a somewhat normal dough ball.  Do you think rolling the bottom crust out to ¼ inch will be thin enough?  If the dough ball does not roll out right I won't make the pizza.

Norma


1/4 inch or a little less.  I'm really curious to see if anyone can produce the layering in my last pics with under 13% protein flour.  If they can that will surely throw another big wrinkle at what formulation Giordanos is using.  For my next pie I will attempt 45% hydration and 10% oil with a 13.5% flour blend.

Nate
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 10:58:31 PM by pythonic »
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2014, 11:42:54 PM »

1/4 inch or a little less.  I'm really curious to see if anyone can produce the layering in my last pics with under 13% protein flour.  If they can that will surely throw another big wrinkle at what formulation Giordanos is using.  For my next pie I will attempt 45% hydration and 10% oil with a 13.5% flour blend.

Nate


Thanks Nate for telling me about the TF.  Thanks for also telling me what you will be attempting in your next Giordano's pie. 

If you read the second part of this article by Tom Lehmann (about fat in dough) I may have mixed my dough wrong.  http://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/in-the-kitchen/dough-doctor-tom-lehmann-calculates-party-sized-pizza/

Norma
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2014, 11:12:11 AM »
Thanks Nate for telling me about the TF.  Thanks for also telling me what you will be attempting in your next Giordano's pie. 

If you read the second part of this article by Tom Lehmann (about fat in dough) I may have mixed my dough wrong.  http://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/in-the-kitchen/dough-doctor-tom-lehmann-calculates-party-sized-pizza/

Norma

Norma,

I have been mixing the dough the same as you and the results have been fine.  Just have to see what happens I guess.
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2014, 03:10:11 PM »
Norma,

I have been mixing the dough the same as you and the results have been fine.  Just have to see what happens I guess.

Nate,

Thanks for telling me you have been mixing the dough the same as I did and it was fine.  ;) I will wait and see what happens.  This is what the dough looks like today. 

I wonder if I should use Crisco butter flavored stick I used before, or the Land O Lakes margarine I purchased today for the pan.

Norma
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2014, 03:50:28 PM »
I vote for Margarine because that what they said is used in the pan.

I have never mixed in oil fist so really interesting in seeing how this turns out.  It looks like it will be a pretty tender crust.

Offline pythonic

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2014, 03:54:25 PM »
I vote for Margarine because that what they said is used in the pan.

I have never mixed in oil fist so really interesting in seeing how this turns out.  It looks like it will be a pretty tender crust.

I vote Margarine.
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