Author Topic: My Giordano's attempt  (Read 4587 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2014, 10:03:51 PM »
The Crisco Butter flavor all vegetable shortening will work perfectly.  This is the same product I use as well as the Sauté and fry which is the liquid form.  Once you grease the pan don't expect to form the dough in the pan or slide it around because it ain't moving! So roll the size you need then fold in half.  Insert the half in the pan, position then open it.  This works well. 

Also, agree at 1.11 on the video and BTB pics those are just dried dough pieces, most likely scraps which were reballed after sitting around for a while.  Or, good dough balls which skinned over then stretched and used.

PizzaGarage,

Thanks for posting that the Crisco Butter flavor all vegetable shortening will work perfectly.  Thanks also for posting that you think those specks were just dried dough pieces, or most likely scraps or good dough balls which skinned over.

Norma


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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2014, 10:08:10 PM »
I did a search of the PMQ Think Tank archives and found two posts by Tom Lehmann in which he discusses the use of shortening or margarine to grease the pans for the stuffed pizza style. In one of the posts, he also discusses how he prefers to bake such pizzas. The two posts are as follows:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4410&p=24291&hilit=#p24291

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5208&hilit=#p31031

In the past, for the deep-dish pizza style, as opposed to the stuffed pizza style, Tom has often stated his preference for the Blue Bonnet margarine product: http://www.shoprite.com/pd/Blue-Bonnet/Vegetable-Oil-Sticks/16-oz/029000008229/. The Blue Bonnet product also includes whey but it is far down the list of ingredients.

I did not find any posts by Tom where he recommended butter for greasing the pans for the stuffed pizza style. He may have done so elsewhere but I did not find any posts to that effect.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing the search at PMQ Think Tank archives and finding the two posts by Tom Lehmann.  Thanks also for posting that Tom has often stated his preference for Blue Bonnet margarine. 

Norma

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2014, 11:50:07 PM »
Norma, that looks AWESOME!  :chef:

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2014, 06:42:09 AM »
Very nice job Norma.  Much better than your previous attempts.  That was a very hot bake.  How did the crust taste.   Was it dry and airy?

Nate
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2014, 07:16:38 AM »
Norma, that looks AWESOME!  :chef:

CDNpielover,

Thanks!

Norma

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2014, 07:24:52 AM »
Very nice job Norma.  Much better than your previous attempts.  That was a very hot bake.  How did the crust taste.   Was it dry and airy?

Nate

Nate,

Thanks!  To me, the crust tasted somewhat bland (not enough salt taste for me).  The crust was dry but I don't know what you mean as how I could describe airy in this style of pizza.  I did not get to taste the stuffed crust for 25 minutes because of my brother calling me.  Maybe because of the cheese and crust sitting for a little I was not able to really describe it right.   

Norma   

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2014, 07:45:10 AM »
Nate,

Thanks!  To me, the crust tasted somewhat bland (not enough salt taste for me).  The crust was dry but I don't know what you mean as how I could describe airy in this style of pizza.  I did not get to taste the stuffed crust for 25 minutes because of my brother calling me.  Maybe because of the cheese and crust sitting for a little I was not able to really describe it right.   

Norma


Hmmm, I think a 2 to 3 cold rise is optimum for this crust.  I'm also gonna use cake yeast.  What kind of sauce did you use?  Did your crust have any layering at all?  I cut the oil in 1st slowly with my KA.  That seems to make a difference.  It shouldn't be bready at all.

Nate
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 07:49:19 AM by pythonic »
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2014, 08:02:41 AM »

Hmmm, I think a 2 to 3 cold rise is optimum for this crust.  I'm also gonna use cake yeast.  What kind of sauce did you use?  Did your crust have any layering at all?  I cut the oil in 1st slowly with my KA.  That seems to make a difference.  It shouldn't be bready at all.

Nate

Nate,

I did do over a 2 day cold ferment for this attempt.  I could not taste any yeasty taste in the crust.  I let the dough warm up for 2 hrs. also.  Maybe I did not use enough yeast in the formulation.  It makes me wonder if I should have used a little higher hydration and maybe a little bit more vegetable oil.  I did see some cake yeast at the one supermarket near me last week.  I do not know if that would give more taste to the crust or not.  I have used cake yeast before and really can't tell any difference in the taste of the final crusts.  I wonder if I should have tried cutting the oil in before adding the water.  Thanks for posting that you cut the oil in first slowly with your Kitchen Aid mixer.

The crust was not bready, but it was not really flaky either.  There was a little layering but don't think it was enough.

Norma   

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2014, 09:03:39 AM »
You may want to drop the oil% also to around 10-12%.  Did u say you used hi gluten pillsbury flour?   I am making 2 attempts this week.  Going with 45/12 and 45/8.

Have you ever attempted a Lou Malnatis style DD?  My last thread is my best one yet.  I would easily bet money that it would win in a blind test.

Nate
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 09:15:21 AM by pythonic »
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2014, 10:17:46 AM »
You may want to drop the oil% also to around 10-12%.  Did u say you used hi gluten pillsbury flour?   I am making 2 attempts this week.  Going with 45/12 and 45/8.

Have you ever attempted a Lou Malnatis style DD?  My last thread is my best one yet.  I would easily bet money that it would win in a blind test.

Nate

Nate,

If you think I should drop the oil amount do you think I then need to increase the hydration?  The reason I am asking is I do not think a drier dough would be better.  The Pillsbury flour I tried was not a really high protein flour.  I do not know when I will have time but I do have some Ceresota flour at home I might try next.

I will be watching your attempts this week to see what happens. 

No, I did not attempt a real Lou Malnatis style DD.  I saw what great results you got on your thread.

Norma

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2014, 10:58:13 AM »
Norma,

Was there a reason why you used the ADY in dry form? That is a good method if you want the dough to last several days of cold fermentation, but when used dry it slows down the fermentation process and limits the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor (and color, taste and texture).

As an aside, I did a bit of research on butter this morning. Although butter contains a small amount of milk solids (about 2%), it apparently is very low in whey content. So, there won't be much lactose to increase crust coloration. On the other hand, butter starts to break down at around 160 degrees F, and the milk solids will start to darken as they cook. Can you describe the crust color in a bit more detail, especially at the sides of the pan? I notice that the bottom of the crust seems darker than the sides. Was there a reason why you decided on a bake temperature of 555 degrees F?

Peter

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2014, 11:34:57 AM »
Nate,

If you think I should drop the oil amount do you think I then need to increase the hydration?  The reason I am asking is I do not think a drier dough would be better.  The Pillsbury flour I tried was not a really high protein flour.  I do not know when I will have time but I do have some Ceresota flour at home I might try next.

I will be watching your attempts this week to see what happens. 

No, I did not attempt a real Lou Malnatis style DD.  I saw what great results you got on your thread.

Norma

Norma.

I think you should use a high gluten flour for your next attempt.  The difference was night and day.  I've tried AP flour and the texture or flavor just isn't right. I used All Trumps at 50/12 last time and it was too soft and moist.  Try a high gluten batch at 45/12 and see what happens.  Let the pizza get nice and brown on top.  Dial your temp down to 465F as well.  You want it too cook as long as possible.

Nate


« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 11:36:56 AM by pythonic »
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2014, 04:45:42 PM »
Norma,

Was there a reason why you used the ADY in dry form? That is a good method if you want the dough to last several days of cold fermentation, but when used dry it slows down the fermentation process and limits the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor (and color, taste and texture).

As an aside, I did a bit of research on butter this morning. Although butter contains a small amount of milk solids (about 2%), it apparently is very low in whey content. So, there won't be much lactose to increase crust coloration. On the other hand, butter starts to break down at around 160 degrees F, and the milk solids will start to darken as they cook. Can you describe the crust color in a bit more detail, especially at the sides of the pan? I notice that the bottom of the crust seems darker than the sides. Was there a reason why you decided on a bake temperature of 555 degrees F?

Peter

Peter,

The first reason I used the ADY in dry form was I had planned to try and incorporate the cold soybean oil (out of the freezer) with the flour, ADY, sugar and salt.  I did not want to use any warm water and that is another reason I did not put the ADY into warmer water.  Along the way I got mixed up though and did not add the soybean oil to the flour, ADY, sugar and salt.  I already had dumped the water into the mixer.  Do you think that is why my crust did not have much flavor? 

Thanks for researching about butter this morning. 

I took a leftover slice outside so maybe you might be able to see better what the colors are on the rim and bottom crust.  I really don't think the colors on the rim and bottom crust are that different.

The only reason I baked at 555 degrees F was I was not sure I was baking at the right rack position and I did not want to burn the bottom crust (which I could not see while it was baking).

Norma

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2014, 04:50:15 PM »
Norma.

I think you should use a high gluten flour for your next attempt.  The difference was night and day.  I've tried AP flour and the texture or flavor just isn't right. I used All Trumps at 50/12 last time and it was too soft and moist.  Try a high gluten batch at 45/12 and see what happens.  Let the pizza get nice and brown on top.  Dial your temp down to 465F as well.  You want it too cook as long as possible.

Nate

Nate,

I do have some All Trumps flour I could try.  What is the difference in the texture and flavor when using All Trumps instead of AP flour?  I know I botched up on the temperature yesterday.  Thanks for your recommendations! 

Norma

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2014, 04:53:52 PM »
The one batch of boardwalk style dough I made today skinned over until I had finished balling a batch on the one dough ball that was not balled.  I could understand maybe that is what might have happened with the dough BTB saw at Giordano's.  I spilled a little oil when when coating the dough balls at market today and took my dough scapper and mixed it with leftover flour from balling the Detroit style dough batch.  I found it interesting how the clumps of oil and flour was easy to do.  I quickly cut the olive oil in with the flour with the dough scrapper.

Norma

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2014, 05:21:26 PM »
Nate,

I do have some All Trumps flour I could try.  What is the difference in the texture and flavor when using All Trumps instead of AP flour?  I know I botched up on the temperature yesterday.  Thanks for your recommendations! 

Norma

AP doesn't look right from the outside (there should be cracking).  The inside should be thick yet light, dry and airy.  AP is too flaky.  Hope this helps.  You can always get a pie shipped because its too hard to explain.

Nate
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2014, 05:44:14 PM »
The first reason I used the ADY in dry form was I had planned to try and incorporate the cold soybean oil (out of the freezer) with the flour, ADY, sugar and salt.  I did not want to use any warm water and that is another reason I did not put the ADY into warmer water.  Along the way I got mixed up though and did not add the soybean oil to the flour, ADY, sugar and salt.  I already had dumped the water into the mixer.  Do you think that is why my crust did not have much flavor? 
Norma,

Technically, all you need in the way of water to prehydrate the ADY is about 5 times the weight of the ADY. Since you used 2.38 grams of ADY, that would be about 11.9 grams of water. That comes to about 5.6% of the total formula water of 214.03 grams. The rest of the formula water could have been kept as cold as you liked, although that would also have had the effect of slowing down the fermentation. Had you let the dough cold ferment for say, four or five days, without using cold water, I think you might have gotten better results because of the increased fermentation byproducts. Using cold water would have further extended the fermentation period and further increased the fermentation byproducts.

I do not think that the small amount of ADY per se would have a noticeable effect on the crust flavor, but the slowed fermentation as mentioned above, whether because of the dry ADY or using cold water, or both, could well have affected the crust flavor in your case. However, I should mention that when I was researching the Giordano's stuffed pizzas, I read several reports of reviewers and diners that complained that the Giordano's crusts were too bland for their taste. Adding more salt might help but based on my analysis several years ago, and also more recently, it does not appear to me that the Giordano's crust has a lot of salt in it. However, the current Stella mozzarella cheeses, and the Escalon tomatoes I mentioned, seem to have more salt today than several years ago when I did my original analysis. That would mean less salt in the dough than what I calculated originally. At the time, I assumed about 13 ounces of the two Stella mozzarella cheeses and about a cup and a half of tomatoes for a 10" pizza. In this vein, I read a lot of complaints that Giordano's uses too little sauce for their stuffed pizzas. When I saw the vimeo video that Nate referenced at http://vimeo.com/m/20711435, it seemed to me that too little sauce was used. BTB has also commented previously that he asks for more sauce on his Giordano's stuffed pizzas. This makes it difficult to know what the standard amount of sauce is at Giordano's for any given size of pizza.

Peter


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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2014, 06:03:48 PM »
AP doesn't look right from the outside (there should be cracking).  The inside should be thick yet light, dry and airy.  AP is too flaky.  Hope this helps.  You can always get a pie shipped because its too hard to explain.

Nate

Nate,

Thanks for telling me AP does not look right from the outside and there should be cracking.  Thanks also for explaining the inside should be thick yet light, airy and dry.  Your explanations did help!  I know I can get two pies shipped.  I had thought about doing that, but that is a lot of pizza ingredients I would miss out on purchasing.  :-D  I may rethink about ordering two frozen Giordano's stuffed crusts at some point in time.  I did that when I purchased a Buddy's pizza shipped to me frozen.  I did not get to the point of deciding what to do yet.

Norma

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2014, 06:15:46 PM »
Norma,

Technically, all you need in the way of water to prehydrate the ADY is about 5 times the weight of the ADY. Since you used 2.38 grams of ADY, that would be about 11.9 grams of water. That comes to about 5.6% of the total formula water of 214.03 grams. The rest of the formula water could have been kept as cold as you liked, although that would also have had the effect of slowing down the fermentation. Had you let the dough cold ferment for say, four or five days, without using cold water, I think you might have gotten better results because of the increased fermentation byproducts. Using cold water would have further extended the fermentation period and further increased the fermentation byproducts.

I do not think that the small amount of ADY per se would have a noticeable effect on the crust flavor, but the slowed fermentation as mentioned above, whether because of the dry ADY or using cold water, or both, could well have affected the crust flavor in your case. However, I should mention that when I was researching the Giordano's stuffed pizzas, I read several reports of reviewers and diners that complained that the Giordano's crusts were too bland for their taste. Adding more salt might help but based on my analysis several years ago, and also more recently, it does not appear to me that the Giordano's crust has a lot of salt in it. However, the current Stella mozzarella cheeses, and the Escalon tomatoes I mentioned, seem to have more salt today than several years ago when I did my original analysis. That would mean less salt in the dough than what I calculated originally. At the time, I assumed about 13 ounces of the two Stella mozzarella cheeses and about a cup and a half of tomatoes for a 10" pizza. In this vein, I read a lot of complaints that Giordano's uses too little sauce for their stuffed pizzas. When I saw the vimeo video that Nate referenced at http://vimeo.com/m/20711435, it seemed to me that too little sauce was used. BTB has also commented previously that he asks for more sauce on his Giordano's stuffed pizzas. This makes it difficult to know what the standard amount of sauce is at Giordano's for any given size of pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for explaining how much water I would need to prehydrate the ADY.  I understand from using ADY dry like I did what happens with fermentation.  I made a mistake in doing it the way I did and understand how that could have affected my crust flavor.  Thanks for explaining that from your analysis several years ago, and more recently, it does not appear to you that the Giordano's crust has a lot of salt in it.  I wonder why Stella mozzarellas cheese and Escalon tomatoes seem to have more salt today then several years ago.  I see it is difficult to know what the standard amount of sauce is at Giordano's for any given size pizza.

Norma

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2014, 07:12:52 PM »
Norma,

Technically, all you need in the way of water to prehydrate the ADY is about 5 times the weight of the ADY. Since you used 2.38 grams of ADY, that would be about 11.9 grams of water. That comes to about 5.6% of the total formula water of 214.03 grams. The rest of the formula water could have been kept as cold as you liked, although that would also have had the effect of slowing down the fermentation. Had you let the dough cold ferment for say, four or five days, without using cold water, I think you might have gotten better results because of the increased fermentation byproducts. Using cold water would have further extended the fermentation period and further increased the fermentation byproducts.

I do not think that the small amount of ADY per se would have a noticeable effect on the crust flavor, but the slowed fermentation as mentioned above, whether because of the dry ADY or using cold water, or both, could well have affected the crust flavor in your case. However, I should mention that when I was researching the Giordano's stuffed pizzas, I read several reports of reviewers and diners that complained that the Giordano's crusts were too bland for their taste. Adding more salt might help but based on my analysis several years ago, and also more recently, it does not appear to me that the Giordano's crust has a lot of salt in it. However, the current Stella mozzarella cheeses, and the Escalon tomatoes I mentioned, seem to have more salt today than several years ago when I did my original analysis. That would mean less salt in the dough than what I calculated originally. At the time, I assumed about 13 ounces of the two Stella mozzarella cheeses and about a cup and a half of tomatoes for a 10" pizza. In this vein, I read a lot of complaints that Giordano's uses too little sauce for their stuffed pizzas. When I saw the vimeo video that Nate referenced at http://vimeo.com/m/20711435, it seemed to me that too little sauce was used. BTB has also commented previously that he asks for more sauce on his Giordano's stuffed pizzas. This makes it difficult to know what the standard amount of sauce is at Giordano's for any given size of pizza.

Peter

The little amount of sauce is used for perfect balance.  The crust remember isn't very thick until u get to the end.  The pizza is 80% topping and about 50% of that is a half inch thick layer of cheese.
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2014, 07:34:55 PM »
The little amount of sauce is used for perfect balance.  The crust remember isn't very thick until u get to the end.  The pizza is 80% topping and about 50% of that is a half inch thick layer of cheese.
Nate,

Can you tell me what size pizza is shown in the vimeo video?

Peter

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2014, 07:49:58 PM »
What kind of sauce did you use? 
Nate

Nate,

I forgot to answer your question as the kind of sauce I used.  I used the Saporito super heavy pizza sauce with added ingredients.  I had to add water.  That is the sauce I use at market.  I do have 6-in-1's I could try.

Norma

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2014, 10:55:29 PM »
Nate,

Can you tell me what size pizza is shown in the vimeo video?

Peter


12 inch
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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2014, 08:59:30 PM »
I found my scrap dough from my last Giordano's attempt.  I wonder if it still would be good to try something with it tomorrow.  I also wonder if the texture or taste of a crust would change since the scrap dough has been fermenting longer.

Norma

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Re: My Giordano's attempt
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2014, 05:12:07 PM »
I am making another stab at a Giordano's dough.  I used the Ceresota flour this time.  The ADY was prehydrated.  The water and vegetable oil were normal temperatures.  The vegetable oil was drizzled into flour in about a minute time-frame without the water.  The flat beater was used for the vegetable oil and flour mixing.  The dough was then mixed with the flat beater to get the water incorporated a little.  The dough hook was then used to mix the dough for four minutes.  The dough ball looks shabby now.  I will see what the dough ball looks like in 3 or 4 days, then decide if I want to use this dough on another attempt at a Giordano's pizza.

Norma


 

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