Author Topic: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough  (Read 7616 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2014, 12:47:24 PM »
Nate,

No that biscuit was not make with fat flakes that I know of.  My granddaughter works at Red Lobster and brings those cheddar bay biscuits home sometimes.  I was just joshing around with Jon.

Norma

Ah, I make those from scratch all the time.  Can see ask her to find out what ingredients are in the biscuit mix and if it's true they only bake at 375F?  Amazing their biscuits are that moist without using cold fats.  I have to cut in ice cold butter to get that effect.  Makes me wonder if they are using some type hydrogenated fat themselves.

Nate
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 01:47:28 PM by pythonic »
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #101 on: March 02, 2014, 05:07:27 PM »
Ah, I make those from scratch all the time.  Can see ask her to find out what ingredients are in the biscuit mix and if it's true they only bake at 375F?  Amazing their biscuits are that moist without using cold fats.  I have to cut in ice cold butter to get that effect.  Makes me wonder if they are using some type hydrogenated fat themselves.

Nate

Nate,

Interesting you can make those cheddar bay biscuits from scratch.  I purchased a Red Lobster biscuit kit at the supermarket awhile ago and my attempt at the biscuits did not turn out well.  I will ask her if she can find out what ingredients are in the biscuit mix and if it is true they only bake at 375 degrees F.

Norma 
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Offline pythonic

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #102 on: March 02, 2014, 05:14:26 PM »
Nate,

Interesting you can make those cheddar bay biscuits from scratch.  I purchased a Red Lobster biscuit kit at the supermarket awhile ago and my attempt at the biscuits did not turn out well.  I will ask her if she can find out what ingredients are in the biscuit mix and if it is true they only bake at 375 degrees F.

Norma

Norma,

For my flour mix I use 2/3 cake and 1/3 AP.  I then use food processor to cut in the butter.  Then I add buttermilk, water and sharp cheddar cheese to the flour mixture.  When they come out of oven I add a garlic butter sauce and sprinkle with fresh parsley.

Nate
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #103 on: March 02, 2014, 05:39:18 PM »
Norma,

For my flour mix I use 2/3 cake and 1/3 AP.  I then use food processor to cut in the butter.  Then I add buttermilk, water and sharp cheddar cheese to the flour mixture.  When they come out of oven I add a garlic butter sauce and sprinkle with fresh parsley.

Nate

Nate,

Your buttermilk cheddar biscuits look delicious!  :drool:  Thanks so much for your recipe.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2014, 10:07:15 AM »
I don't know if these articles have been posted before here on the forum but in this article Leo Spizzirri (general manager/executive chef at Giordano's in 2008) says that the crust at Giordano's is a pastry, but he also says that the correct term is Pizza in Teglia which means pizza in a pan.  That is somewhat confusing (see article below about Pizza in Teglia).  http://www.chicagopizzaclub.com/2008/07/giordanos-meeting-61.html

This is also Leo Spizzirri's take on Giordano's pizza at http://www.chicagopizzaclub.com/2008/10/chicago-pizza-interview-leo-spizzirri.html

I would guess the term “pastry” for the crust of Giordano's pizza could be taken different ways.  What confuses me is what really is a pastry crust in terms of a pizza crust.  I also have seen references that Nancy's stuffed pizzas also have a pastry crust.
 
It is also confusing to me about Leo working at Dough Boys and saying their stuffed pizza is in the style of Giordano's stuffed crust.  Leo also mentions the thin crust at Dough Boys saying it is not ladened with oil.  I looked on Slice and Dough Boys stuffed crust did look flaky, and maybe even flakier than Giordano's. http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/02/best-new-stuffed-pizza-chicago-dough-boys-pizzeria-review.html  I wonder if any member from Chicago ever compared Dough Boys stuffed crust to Giordano's stuffed crust while Dough Boys was opened.  I saw some comments on reviews of Dough Boys stuffed crust, and some of them said the flaky/pastry like crust was from lard.
 
Dough Boys looked like it had an oven somewhat like Giordano's has. edit:  See Peter's link below because I can not get this link working.
 
I also wonder where Leo works now.  I saw online that he did give a pizza workshop at http://chicago.eventful.com/events/kids-pizza-workshop-world-pizza-champion-/E0-001-040667412-3 has a pizza consulting business on facebook and is in this link.  http://www.yatedo.com/p/Leo+Spizzirri/normal/0ae87da8a70a57cb6e64219c145dbd7c and http://www.linkedin.com/pub/leo-spizzirri/14/5ab/9a3 I also saw where Leo helped to manage Mama Toni's Pizzeria & Catering http://www.village.bartlett.il.us/assets/pdfs/bartletter/Aug-Sept%202010%20Bartletter.pdf 

I would guess Leo could tell us a thing or two about how Giordano's stuffed crust is made.

Norma
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 05:43:56 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #105 on: March 03, 2014, 11:03:58 AM »
Norma,

The link you provided to the Slice article is not working because you left the letter "l" in html outside of the right tag. So, you might want to correct that. Also, the nbcchicago.com link did not lead to the article about Leo. So, I used Dough Boy in the site's search engine and I got this link: http://www.nbcchicago.com/video/#!/shows/nonstop/Foodies-Chicago--Dough-Boys-Pizza/114501039. I believe that your link was corrupted somehow in your post. As you know, on this forum you have to be sure that the entire link is between the two url tags.

Like you, the thought occurred to me to do some searching on Leo's contributions while he was at Giordano's, and that searching took me to most of the articles you referenced. As best I can tell, Leo is now a consultant.  He no doubt should know a lot about the Giordano's dough but he may be under obligations of confidentiality and unable to say much about the Giordano's dough that is not publicly known. As you perhaps know, the Dough Boy pizzeria shut down some time ago.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #106 on: March 03, 2014, 11:59:20 AM »
Norma,

The link you provided to the Slice article is not working because you left the letter "l" in html outside of the right tag. So, you might want to correct that. Also, the nbcchicago.com link did not lead to the article about Leo. So, I used Dough Boy in the site's search engine and I got this link: http://www.nbcchicago.com/video/#!/shows/nonstop/Foodies-Chicago--Dough-Boys-Pizza/114501039. I believe that your link was corrupted somehow in your post. As you know, on this forum you have to be sure that the entire link is between the two url tags.

Like you, the thought occurred to me to do some searching on Leo's contributions while he was at Giordano's, and that searching took me to most of the articles you referenced. As best I can tell, Leo is now a consultant.  He no doubt should know a lot about the Giordano's dough but he may be under obligations of confidentiality and unable to say much about the Giordano's dough that is not publicly known. As you perhaps know, the Dough Boy pizzeria shut down some time ago.

Peter

Peter,

I don't know what happened when I copied the link to the article on Slice.  On my word processor it looked right and I thought it copied right but guess it did not.  Thanks for finding the correct other link.  When I posted I could not see where the url tag would be.  I think I corrected both links in my last post.

I know Leo may be under obligations of confidentiality and probably can't tell anything that is not publicly know.  Yes, I did know the Dough Boy pizzeria shut down some time ago.  With a person like Leo on board it shows opening a pizzeria still can be risky.

I guess what made me go on the search about Leo was your comment at Reply 97 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30173.msg304529#msg304529 about achieving a croissant-like effect using only 100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #107 on: March 03, 2014, 12:20:42 PM »
Norma,

The nbcchicago.com link is still not working in your post but it is still working in mine. Also, in modifying your post, some other links became corrupted. Having made my share of mistakes in posting links, I now try to test each link in a post I am composing, by clicking on the links in the Preview mode, before posting.

As for the "100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil" statement, if Giordano's were using soybean oil fat flakes that are pure soybean oil fat flakes without anything more added to them, then technically Giordano's could say that they use only 100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil. That is one of the reasons why I asked you if Bunge disclosed what their fat flakes are composed of. Having an answer to that question should help settle the matter. Of course, Giordano's can still be sloppy about what they say since they apparently are under no legal duty to be more correct or precise on that score.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #108 on: March 03, 2014, 05:53:50 PM »
Norma,

The nbcchicago.com link is still not working in your post but it is still working in mine. Also, in modifying your post, some other links became corrupted. Having made my share of mistakes in posting links, I now try to test each link in a post I am composing, by clicking on the links in the Preview mode, before posting.

As for the "100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil" statement, if Giordano's were using soybean oil fat flakes that are pure soybean oil fat flakes without anything more added to them, then technically Giordano's could say that they use only 100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil. That is one of the reasons why I asked you if Bunge disclosed what their fat flakes are composed of. Having an answer to that question should help settle the matter. Of course, Giordano's can still be sloppy about what they say since they apparently are under no legal duty to be more correct or precise on that score.

Peter

Peter,

The nbcchicago.com link will not work for me when I changed it again, so I edited my post to look at your post if anyone is interested in seeing that video.  I do try to test each of my links when I first post but for some reason none of my links would work for me.  I then removed my Ethernet cord from my DSL modern and also from my computer and put them back in again.  I think all links are working now except the nbc one which I removed.

I understand now since you explained that if Girodano's were using soybean oil fat flakes that are pure fat flakes without anything added to them, then technically Giordano's could say that they use only 100% Pure Soy Vegetable Oil.   I also know Giordano's can still be sloppy. 

I had emailed Shelby at Bunge over the weekend about the fat flakes and received no reply as of today.  I just called when I returned from market and left Shelby a voice-mail.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #109 on: March 03, 2014, 07:37:45 PM »
Shelby from Bunge just sent me this email.

Norma, 

I am traveling until Thursday and do not have access to my computer.  Can I get back to you when I return Thursday?

Thank you,

Shelby Coxen

I told Shelby that was okay.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #110 on: March 06, 2014, 10:53:18 AM »
This is what Shelby emailed me this morning about the Bunge soy fat flakes. 

Norma, 

Here are the specs.  This does not have any water in the product.  It is 100 percent Soy.  They are also anhydrous.  We do not have any hydrous flakes.  I hope this helps.  Please let me know if you need anything else. 

Thank you,

Shelby Coxen 

The spec sheet is the same one she sent me before that I posted at Reply 78 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30173.msg304330#msg304330

Are there any other questions I should ask Shelby?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #111 on: March 06, 2014, 11:48:24 AM »
This is what Shelby emailed me this morning about the Bunge soy fat flakes. 

Norma,

Here are the specs.  This does not have any water in the product.  It is 100 percent Soy.  They are also anhydrous.  We do not have any hydrous flakes.  I hope this helps.  Please let me know if you need anything else.

Thank you,

Shelby Coxen 

The spec sheet is the same one she sent me before that I posted at Reply 78 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30173.msg304330#msg304330

Are there any other questions I should ask Shelby?

Norma
Norma,

Just to be on the safe side, can you ask Shelby if there are any minor amounts of additives, like citric acid or THBQ, used with the fat flakes?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #112 on: March 06, 2014, 01:38:25 PM »
Norma,

Just to be on the safe side, can you ask Shelby if there are any minor amounts of additives, like citric acid or THBQ, used with the fat flakes?

Peter

Peter,

I am not sure what THBQ is.  Is this what THBQ is?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydroxy-1,4-benzoquinone and http://www.naturalnews.com/031318_TBHQ_food_preservatives.html#b  As soon as I understand what THBQ is I will ask Shelby is those are included in the fat flakes.  I saw the fatty free acid, something related to Peroxide Value and something about the color (red) in the spec sheet, but didn't really understand what that meant either.

Norma
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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #113 on: March 06, 2014, 02:03:26 PM »
I think a couple letters got mixed up, it's actually TBHQ not THBQ

 http://miami-water.com/blog/1812/list-of-tbhq-products-petroleum-foods-are-toxic/ 

There's a lot of concern within certain groups on this topic. How much or lack of merit there is I can't say seeing I have not read much on it.

jon
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #114 on: March 06, 2014, 02:10:59 PM »
Norma,

Yes, that is what TBHQ is (thanks, Jon, for the correction). It is commonly used in flour mixes that include oils (usually spray dried) and also with some oils to preserve freshness. I just want to confirm that 100% oil really means 100% oil.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #115 on: March 06, 2014, 03:03:05 PM »
I think a couple letters got mixed up, it's actually TBHQ not THBQ

 http://miami-water.com/blog/1812/list-of-tbhq-products-petroleum-foods-are-toxic/ 

There's a lot of concern within certain groups on this topic. How much or lack of merit there is I can't say seeing I have not read much on it.

jon

Norma,

Yes, that is what TBHQ is (thanks, Jon, for the correction). It is commonly used in flour mixes that include oils (usually spray dried) and also with some oils to preserve freshness. I just want to confirm that 100% oil really means 100% oil.

Peter

Thanks Jon and Peter!  I sent another email.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2014, 03:16:04 PM »
Well, Shelby sure was fast in responding to my email.  This is what she said.

Norma,

There are not any additives in the product.  They would have to be listed on the ingredient statement and the only thing listed is partially hydro soy oil.   

Thank you,

Shelby Coxen

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #117 on: March 06, 2014, 04:03:44 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for following up with Shelby.

Technically, I believe that a partially-hydrogenated soybean oil with nothing added would qualify as a "100% Pure Soy Oil". However, there is no way of knowing whether Giordano's is using fat flakes. To rule out such use, one would have to send an email and ask whether there are any hydrogenated oils in their stuffed pizza dough.

Peter

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #118 on: March 06, 2014, 04:17:43 PM »
Norma,

To rule out such use, one would have to send an email and ask whether there are any hydrogenated oils in their stuffed pizza dough.

Peter

Peter,

Do you know of another email address for Giordano's other than their contact page.  As you might recall they do not want to answer me anymore and my daughter used her whole grandfather's Greek last name in her inquiry on Giordano's contact page and she never heard from them.  I would be willing to send Giordano's another email.  I think I have an alias under Wildwood if I can find where I put the password.   

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #119 on: March 06, 2014, 04:23:37 PM »
Peter,

Do you know of another email address for Giordano's other than their contact page.  As you might recall they do not want to answer me anymore and my daughter used her whole grandfather's Greek last name in her inquiry on Giordano's contact page and she never heard from them.  I would be willing to send Giordano's another email.  I think I have an alias under Wildwood if I can find where I put the password.   

Norma
Norma,
You're welcome to use my gmail # and I can set it to forward the messages to you.
I believe  I still have your # and mine is posted on my forum profile her. PM if you have any questions.

Bob
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #120 on: March 06, 2014, 04:35:05 PM »
Norma,
You're welcome to use my gmail # and I can set it to forward the messages to you.
I believe  I still have your # and mine is posted on my forum profile her. PM if you have any questions.

Bob

Bob,

That is kind of you to offer me the use of your gmail.  ;) I would like to see if Peter knows any other places to contact Giordano's other than their “get in touch feature”.  Maybe if you want you could ask Giordano's on their http://giordanos.com/get-in-touch/ page if they use any hydrogenated oils in their stuffed pizza dough.  You could tell them if you want that you might be interested in ordering some stuffed crust pizzas but first want to know if they use any hydrogenated oils in their stuffed crust dough.

Norma
 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 04:38:01 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #121 on: March 06, 2014, 04:41:09 PM »
Bob,

That is kind of you to offer me the use of your gmail.  ;) I would like to see if Peter knows any other places to contact Giordano's other than their “get in touch feature”.  Maybe if you want you could ask Giordano's on their http://giordanos.com/get-in-touch/ page if they use any hydrogenated oils in their stuffed pizza dough.  You could tell them if you want that you might be interested in ordering some stuffed crust pizzas but first want to know if they use any hydrogenated oils in their stuffed crust dough.

Norma
Done through the link you provided Norma.
Here's my message and we'll see what they say....

"I would like to place an order. I cannot consume hydrogenated oils ...do your pizzas contain this?
Thank you,
Bob"


Bob
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #122 on: March 06, 2014, 04:47:54 PM »
Done through the link you provided Norma.
Here's my message and we'll see what they say....

"I would like to place an order. I cannot consume hydrogenated oils ...do your pizzas contain this?
Thank you,
Bob"


Bob

Bob,

Thanks so much for contacting Giordano's.  8) The thing I forgot to tell you though is that Giordano's does use margarine to grease their pans, which probably does contain hydrogenated oil.  You might want to send another message saying you are just concerned about hydrogenated oils in pizza dough and don't mind if they use margarine or something similar to grease their pans.  Sorry, I was not more through in posting what you should say.  :-[

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #123 on: March 06, 2014, 05:04:10 PM »
Bob,

Thanks so much for contacting Giordano's.  8) The thing I forgot to tell you though is that Giordano's does use margarine to grease their pans, which probably does contain hydrogenated oil.  You might want to send another message saying you are just concerned about hydrogenated oils in pizza dough and don't mind if they use margarine or something similar to grease their pans.  Sorry, I was not more through in posting what you should say.  :-[

Norma
That's fine Norma....let's wait and see how thorough G's are...if they are on their game they will differentiate their use of hydro oils to me. Rather than a blanket statement.

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #124 on: March 06, 2014, 06:57:27 PM »
Norma,

Bob should be right that Giordano's should differentiate between the dough and the fats (most likely Koshered margarine) used to grease the pans. Another way to ask the question is to ask whether their dough contains trans fats. The FDA is reportedly on the verge of taking certain products with trans fats off of its GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) list, so every food producer on the planet is aware of trans fats and how they have become universally despised by consumers and regulators alike. Trans fats can only exist for hydrogenated oils. There are no trans fats for liquid oils, like soybean oil. It is still possible that the trans fats at Giordano's are kept below 0.5 grams per serving, which can be reported as zero, but let's wait to see what Giordano's actually says, if it responds to Bob.

Peter