Author Topic: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough  (Read 7980 times)

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Offline Jackitup

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2014, 06:27:45 PM »
I think I'll try both ways. But I think the best would be to put between the layers
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Offline pythonic

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2014, 06:33:03 PM »
Norma,

Wow.  Tom Lehman recommended a percentage of 10-15% of fat flakes.  You gonna give it a whirl?

Nate
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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2014, 06:39:58 PM »
I think I'll try both ways. But I think the best would be to put between the layers

Thanks for you thoughts of what ways to try Jon!

Norma

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2014, 06:46:50 PM »
Norma,

Wow.  Tom Lehman recommended a percentage of 10-15% of fat flakes.  You gonna give it a whirl?

Nate

Nate,

I sent Tom Lehmann an email and asked him what would be the best way to start with the fat flakes.  Tom said a good way to begin testing the fat flakes in pizza dough is use my basic dough formula and modify as follows:

Reduce added oil to not more than 1%.  Add fat flakes at a minimum of 5% of the total dough weight.  Tom said I could go as high as 15%.  Tom also said add the fat flakes during the last 4 to 5 minutes of the mixing.  Tom said after the dough has been mixed, roll the dough out to about 1 inch in thickness and then give it a 3-fold.  Then begin scaling it into the desired weight pieces.  From that point on handle as any other pizza dough.

Norma

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2014, 07:29:19 PM »
Nate,

I sent Tom Lehmann an email and asked him what would be the best way to start with the fat flakes.  Tom said a good way to begin testing the fat flakes in pizza dough is use my basic dough formula and modify as follows:

Reduce added oil to not more than 1%.  Add fat flakes at a minimum of 5% of the total dough weight.  Tom said I could go as high as 15%.  Tom also said add the fat flakes during the last 4 to 5 minutes of the mixing.  Tom said after the dough has been mixed, roll the dough out to about 1 inch in thickness and then give it a 3-fold.  Then begin scaling it into the desired weight pieces.  From that point on handle as any other pizza dough.

Norma

Oh.  Didn't he say that they worked best at 10-15%?  Someone else said he said that but who knows.
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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2014, 08:45:36 PM »
Oh.  Didn't he say that they worked best at 10-15%?  Someone else said he said that but who knows.

Nate,

No, Tom did not tell me the fat flakes work best at 10-15%.  I guess more tests on different doughs will have to be made.

Norma

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2014, 01:48:48 PM »
For this experiment with the fat flakes I decided to use 6% for the fat flakes and delete any oil.  I used the Lehmann dough calculation tool for this formulation, but did not add the fat flakes in the calculation tool because the fat flakes are were added by the total weight of the dough ball.  This formulation was for a 14” pizza because my pizza stone is 16” and I did not want to mess up on loading the pizza on a stone in my home oven.  I have no idea how this pizza will turn out with the fat flakes, but my home oven only goes to a little over 500 degrees F.

I mixed the dough by adding the water first and mixed in the salt by stirring.  The the flour, sugar and IDY were added and the mixture was mixed for 3 minutes with the flat beater.  The dough was then rested for 5 minutes before the fat flakes were mixed in.  The mix time for when the fat flakes were added was 4 minutes with the spiral hook.  The dough felt drier than normal with a 63% hydration, but I guess that was from the addition of the fat flakes.  The dough was then rolled and folded over before it was balled and oiled. 

I am letting the dough ball room ferment until I think it might be ready to open.  The dough was balled at about 12:27 PM. 

The one photo of the fat flakes shows how large some of the fat flakes are.

Norma

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2014, 02:00:26 PM »
Norma,

I assume that you just added the fat flakes to the basic dough formulation and that doing so made the final dough ball larger. Is that correct, or did you trim the final dough down to the desired dough ball weight? Whatever you did, if the new dough formulation works out, there should be a way of using the dough calculating tools.

Peter

Offline dwighttsharpe

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2014, 02:02:20 PM »
Wonder how close one could get to simulating your fat flake dough by roughly cutting shortening into the flour?

I might try that once I get stocked back up on supplies. Might be a while though.

Although I do see some similarities to times I have used shortening in my bread dough and didn't soften the shortening sufficiently.

Maybe that's been mentioned already though.
Dwight


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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2014, 02:53:06 PM »
Norma,

I assume that you just added the fat flakes to the basic dough formulation and that doing so made the final dough ball larger. Is that correct, or did you trim the final dough down to the desired dough ball weight? Whatever you did, if the new dough formulation works out, there should be a way of using the dough calculating tools.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I did just add the fat flakes to the basic dough formulation.  I did not trim at all.  I will just stretch the dough ball so it won't become as big as my pizza stone.

I wonder if the formulation I used works out how the calculating tools could handle adding the fat flakes since I added them to the basic dough formulation. 

Norma

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2014, 02:59:41 PM »
Wonder how close one could get to simulating your fat flake dough by roughly cutting shortening into the flour?

I might try that once I get stocked back up on supplies. Might be a while though.

Although I do see some similarities to times I have used shortening in my bread dough and didn't soften the shortening sufficiently.

Maybe that's been mentioned already though.

Dwight,

I really don't know how close one could get to simulating a flake flake dough by roughly cutting shortening into flour.  I have tried something like that with the HRI formulation but it did not work out well for me, or maybe I did not mix right.   

Tom Lehmann has some ideas of adding oil or fat in doughs at higher amounts at http://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/in-the-kitchen/dough-doctor-tom-lehmann-calculates-party-sized-pizza/ (second part) and how oil or shortening affects dough at http://www.pizzatoday.com/industry-news/oils-affect-dough/

Sometimes I get confused on what methods to use. 

Will be interested in your results if you decide to experiment with shortening and cutting it into the flour.  ;D

Norma

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2014, 05:46:13 PM »
I wonder if the formulation I used works out how the calculating tools could handle adding the fat flakes since I added them to the basic dough formulation. 
Norma,

Until you see how you like the results, I don't think I would worry about this matter quite yet but there are a few ways of coming up with the final dough formulation but you would want to use the expanded dough calculating tool to be able to use the shortening entry box to get the weight of the fat flakes to use.

One method would be to use the thickness factor approach as you used it and adjust the percent of shortening until it is 6% of the total dough weight. For your latest dough, that would come to 10.64% as measured as a percent of the formula flour. This scenario would look like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (1%):
Fat Flakes (aka Shortening) (10.64%):
Total (177.39%):
187.28 g  |  6.61 oz | 0.41 lbs
117.99 g  |  4.16 oz | 0.26 lbs
1.4 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
3.75 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
1.87 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
19.93 g | 0.7 oz
332.22 g | 11.72 oz | 0.73 lbs | TF = 0.076125
Note: The amount of dough is for a single 14" pizza; the nominal thickness factor = 0.075: the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; the salt is Morton's Kosher salt

Another way would be to add the weight of the fat flakes you used to the total dough weight (332.32 grams) and use the new total dough weight (352.1532 grams) in the Dough Weight option of the expanded dough calculating tool, along with 10% as the amount of shortening. There would be no need to use the bowl residue compensation because the total dough weight is increased by adding the amount of shortening (19.9332 grams) to your original dough formulation. This is what this scenario would look like:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (1%):
Fat Flakes (aka Shortening) (10%):
Total (176.75%):
199.24 g  |  7.03 oz | 0.44 lbs
125.52 g  |  4.43 oz | 0.28 lbs
1.49 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
3.98 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.83 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
1.99 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
19.92 g | 0.7 oz
352.15 g | 12.42 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The salt is Morton's Kosher salt; no bowl residue compensation

To get back to your original dough ball weight for the 14" pizza, you would scale back the dough ball weight to the original 332.22 grams. That way, all of the percents remain intact, and the dough ball weight is the right weight to make the 14" pizza..

Like Chicago Bob says: Easy peazzy.

Peter

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2014, 06:58:19 PM »
Norma,

Until you see how you like the results, I don't think I would worry about this matter quite yet but there are a few ways of coming up with the final dough formulation but you would want to use the expanded dough calculating tool to be able to use the shortening entry box to get the weight of the fat flakes to use.

One method would be to use the thickness factor approach as you used it and adjust the percent of shortening until it is 6% of the total dough weight. For your latest dough, that would come to 10.64% as measured as a percent of the formula flour. This scenario would look like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (1%):
Fat Flakes (aka Shortening) (10.64%):
Total (177.39%):
187.28 g  |  6.61 oz | 0.41 lbs
117.99 g  |  4.16 oz | 0.26 lbs
1.4 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
3.75 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
1.87 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
19.93 g | 0.7 oz
332.22 g | 11.72 oz | 0.73 lbs | TF = 0.076125
Note: The amount of dough is for a single 14" pizza; the nominal thickness factor = 0.075: the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; the salt is Morton's Kosher salt

Another way would be to add the weight of the fat flakes you used to the total dough weight (332.32 grams) and use the new total dough weight (352.1532 grams) in the Dough Weight option of the expanded dough calculating tool, along with 10% as the amount of shortening. There would be no need to use the bowl residue compensation because the total dough weight is increased by adding the amount of shortening (19.9332 grams) to your original dough formulation. This is what this scenario would look like:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (1%):
Fat Flakes (aka Shortening) (10%):
Total (176.75%):
199.24 g  |  7.03 oz | 0.44 lbs
125.52 g  |  4.43 oz | 0.28 lbs
1.49 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
3.98 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.83 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
1.99 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
19.92 g | 0.7 oz
352.15 g | 12.42 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The salt is Morton's Kosher salt; no bowl residue compensation

To get back to your original dough ball weight for the 14" pizza, you would scale back the dough ball weight to the original 332.22 grams. That way, all of the percents remain intact, and the dough ball weight is the right weight to make the 14" pizza..

Like Chicago Bob says: Easy peazzy.

Peter

Peter,

I have no idea of how I will like the results since the pizza will be made in my anemic home oven.  I would have liked to been able to try this fat flake dough ball at market, or in the BS, but at least we might know if fat flakes help a pizza that is baked in a home oven that does not at least go to 525 degrees F.

Thank you for figuring out ways to figure out how to use the fat flakes using the total weight option of the expanded dough calculating tool, or using the expanded dough calculating tool and using 10.64% for the fat flakes.  I am not sure I really understand either method but will study them more.

I got a little behind with other things to do when the dough ball looked ready to be opened.  The photos of the dough ball were taken a little after 3:30 PM.  The ambient temperature in my kitchen was 69 degrees F.  I think the dough ball did double by 3:30 PM.  The dough felt a lot softer than it had been when it was balled.  I then put the dough ball in the fridge.  I just turned on the oven to start to warm the pizza stone and the dough ball is sitting out now.

Norma

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2014, 08:53:31 PM »
Although this pizza made with the dough with the higher amount of fat flakes turned out pretty good, it was not as good as the fat flake pizza made at market.  I would tend to think the higher temperatures in the deck oven helped to make a better fat flake pizza.

A big bubble appeared on the fat flake dough ball while it was warming up.  The bubble was just pinched shut.  The fat flake dough ball opened well, but was not as easy to open as the fat flake dough ball at market.  With the higher hydration and more fat flakes I thought the dough ball might be easier to open, but that was not the case.

The pizza stone was 515 degrees F when the fat flake pizza was loaded.  It took 9 minutes for the fat flake pizza to bake.  The rim crust was not as airy as the fat flake pizza at market.  There was still some lamination going on in the crust where the sauce meets the crust.  The bottom crust browned well and evenly. 

The fat flake bottom crust was crispy, but I can figure out why this fat flake pizza had more chew to it.  It was not really chewy, but had more chew in the rim and bottom crust than the fat flake pizza at market. 

I would say all in all that the fat flake pizza was better than a regular pizza baked in my home oven. 

Norma

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2014, 08:56:02 PM »
Norma

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2014, 08:58:06 PM »
Norma

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2014, 07:23:17 PM »
Oh.  Didn't he say that they worked best at 10-15%?  Someone else said he said that but who knows.

Tom stated in a Pizza today article that 10 to 15 percent is used to "achieve the desired effect". September 2012.  You can google "Tom Lehman Fat Flakes"  for his article.

I really likes these results personally and want to try it as well....



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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2014, 09:02:50 PM »
Tom stated in a Pizza today article that 10 to 15 percent is used to "achieve the desired effect". September 2012.  You can google "Tom Lehman Fat Flakes"  for his article.

I really likes these results personally and want to try it as well....

PizzaGarage,

If this the article that you mentioned that Tom Lehman wrote about fat flakes? http://www.pizzatoday.com/industry-news/oils-affect-dough/ If there is another article about fat flakes that Tom Lehmann wrote could you post the link to the article?

I would gladly sent you some fat flakes to try if you want to pay for the postal box and shipping.

Norma

Offline Jackitup

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2014, 10:33:03 PM »
Starting an experiment tonite using beef chuck fat that I saved in the freezer. Pounded out, thin sliced, rinsed and strained to keep it from clumping and leaving nice separated slivers. ALSOooooo, trying out my FIRST Detroit style Norma, thank you for the inspiration!!! So I have mixed the dough for 10 minutes, resting now, will mix again for a few minutes and then gently mix or knead the fat into the dough trying not to breakdown the slivers of beef fat, I will post results tomorrow or Friday. Fat was added at 12%, keeping in mind that this is regular fat, not dehydrated

jon
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Offline Jackitup

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2014, 10:39:13 PM »
Norma, one more thing, do you think 15.6 oz of dough is enough for 12x11" pan? This hasn't risen yet of course but it doesn't look like it's enough, just wanted to run it by you.

thanks
jon
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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2014, 10:57:17 PM »
Starting an experiment tonite using beef chuck fat that I saved in the freezer. Pounded out, thin sliced, rinsed and strained to keep it from clumping and leaving nice separated slivers. ALSOooooo, trying out my FIRST Detroit style Norma, thank you for the inspiration!!! So I have mixed the dough for 10 minutes, resting now, will mix again for a few minutes and then gently mix or knead the fat into the dough trying not to breakdown the slivers of beef fat, I will post results tomorrow or Friday. Fat was added at 12%, keeping in mind that this is regular fat, not dehydrated

jon

Jon,

That is cool that you are trying frozen beef fat.  8) The fat pieces look great!   ;D >:D  Good luck on your first Detroit style pizza with your beef fat pieces.  ;D Just to let you know I don't use any oil in my Detroit style pizzas, but did in other Sicilian pizza with higher hydrations.

Norma 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 11:16:05 PM by norma427 »

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2014, 11:01:20 PM »
Norma, one more thing, do you think 15.6 oz of dough is enough for 12x11" pan? This hasn't risen yet of course but it doesn't look like it's enough, just wanted to run it by you.

thanks
jon


Jon,

I went over to my Two Bill's thread to see what TF I used.  I now only do the dough on the calculating tool using the weight option because I know my dough ball weights for my 8"x10" pans are 9.5 ounces.  In Reply 428 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg225064#msg225064  I used 0.1218 as the TF.  My Detroit style dough is higher in hydration than that formulation was.  Maybe you can figure out if 15.6 oz. of dough is enough dough.  I think it might be though because I think in my one post I used 1 lb. of dough for my bigger Detroit pans.  I let my dough balls rise overnight in the cooler at market and then press them out cold and let the dough temper again until they rise.  Maybe after your dough rises it would look like enough dough.

Norma
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 11:25:58 PM by norma427 »

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2014, 11:23:46 PM »
PizzaGarage,

If this the article that you mentioned that Tom Lehman wrote about fat flakes? http://www.pizzatoday.com/industry-news/oils-affect-dough/ If there is another article about fat flakes that Tom Lehmann wrote could you post the link to the article?

I would gladly sent you some fat flakes to try if you want to pay for the postal box and shipping.

Norma

That is the one, starts on paragraph 6 or 7...

I do appreciate the offer...my supplier has some he will send me..but thank you!!

It looks really interesting and I want to try it out in my pan doughs....

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2014, 11:29:48 PM »
That is the one, starts on paragraph 6 or 7...

I do appreciate the offer...my supplier has some he will send me..but thank you!!

It looks really interesting and I want to try it out in my pan doughs....

PizzaGarage,

I will be interested in seeing what kind of of results you get in your pan doughs with fat flakes.  8)   

I would try out more experiments with the fat flakes sooner but one can only make so many pizzas and consume them.   :-D

Norma

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Re: The Fat Flake Pizza Dough
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2014, 11:39:54 PM »
Jon,

I will have to go over to my Two Bill's thread and see what TF I used.  I now only do the dough on the calculating tool using the weight option because I know my dough weights for my 8"x10" pans are 9.5 ounces.

Norma

I should be pretty close then. I found an enameled bottom to a broiler pan in my basement that should work perfect for this application. I've been thinking about making your Detroit style for some time now and then you come up with these fat flakes deal and dammit I could not make up my mind so I thought, what the hell, incorporate both and see where I land. Excited to see how it turns out. BIG THANKS for all you share here young lady!!!

jon
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