Author Topic: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results  (Read 1048 times)

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Offline GotRocks

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Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« on: February 11, 2014, 05:50:20 PM »
About 6-8 months ago, you had all helped me get my dough into shape so it would be easy for a noob to stretch out, and have decent qualities. I had increased my hydration, and shortened my mix time and found a very workable dough with great workability with great taste & texture for the style of pizza that I want to produce

Here is my current formula;
Flour: 100.00%
          (75.00%   Bouncer & 25.00% APF)
   Salt: 1.75%   
   Sugar: 2.00%   
   Instant Yeast: .50%   
   Vegetable Oil: 3.00%   
   Water: 63.00%   

Since my pizza guys are up to speed and have gotten very good at stretching out our dough, and building great pies, I figured I would give it a try without mixing my flours, and I used 100% bouncer for a batch of dough

They were able to stretch things out great, the resulting pizza was very disappointing though. Instead of a crispy crust and beautiful raised edge, we got a finished product that was very soft "doughy" and had no crispiness to it at all.
 I played with baking times, I increased my deck heat , I increased my top heat. no matter what we did with bakes times/temps, the resulting product basically sucked.
I even waited a few days letting the dough sit in the cooler before trying it again, and it still sucked!
We are baking in a "Sveba Dahlen Classic Pizza Oven" where I can independently adjust our deck heat, top heat,, & front to back differential temps. It is a great oven IMO

Why would my addition of 25% APF turn out such a fantastic product compared to using 100% bouncer with my current formulation?

Can you suggest a different brand of flour with a similar protein content that I get with my custom blending of bouncer with APF?


My APF is basic Sysco brand H&R flour

Thanks in advance.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2014, 07:55:34 PM »
Got Rocks,

According to Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12070.msg113321#msg113321, at least at one point (a few years ago) Sysco marketed an H&R flour milled by ConAgra. According to the ConAgra brochure at http://buyersguide.foodproductdesign.com/media/54/library/FPDconagramills3.pdf, at page 8, their H&R flour has a protein content of 11.0% +/-  2%. That 2% figure is large but it is quite common for H&R flours.

The Bouncer flour has a protein content of 13.8% +/- 0.3%. If we use the 13.8% number for the Bouncer flour and the 11% number for the H&R flour, and we use the 75/25 split you mentioned, then according to the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, the blend would have a protein content of 13.1%.

Assuming that the above analysis is correct, you might consider the General Mills Best Bakers Patent flour with the specs as shown at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=spring-patent&typ=Type. That flour has a slightly lower protein content than your current blend but, like the Bouncer flour, it is bleached and bromated (H&R flours are almost never bromated but they can be bleached). Of course, there are other flours out there with protein contents of around 13.1% that have similar characteristics to the blend you are now using. You would have to do some testing to see if the available flours at around 13% protein meet your needs.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 07:42:09 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline GotRocks

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2014, 09:44:39 PM »
So, with such a small change in protein contents with me using straight bouncer, and my 25% APF blend, why such a major difference in final product consistency?

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2014, 07:41:25 AM »
Got Rocks,

After I posted, I recalled that the Bouncer flour comes in both bromated and unbromated form. Can you tell us which you have?

Peter

Offline GotRocks

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2014, 01:50:41 PM »
Got Rocks,

After I posted, I recalled that the Bouncer flour comes in both bromated and unbromated form. Can you tell us which you have?

Peter

Potassium Bromate is listed on the ingredient label, as is reduced iron, and a few other things
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 11:12:22 AM »
GotRocks,

I personally do not use bromated flours but I have researched it on many occasions and read the reports on its use by our members. If you research the functionality of potassium bromate, I think you will find that the discussions are similar to that as presented by the AIB, where Tom Lehmann hangs his hat:

Potassium bromate is a slow acting oxidizing agent that works during fermentation, proofing and baking. The oxidation process affects the dough structure and rheology. It improves dough handling properties contributing to loaf volume, grain and texture. Potassium bromate is used to help bread rise in the oven and to create a good texture. (Source:https://www.aibonline.org//press/safeusepotassiumbromate%2009_08.pdf] [url]https://www.aibonline.org//press/safeusepotassiumbromate%2009_08.pdf[/url])

From what our members have reported, and also from what I have read in the literature, the use of potassium bromate can shorten the mix time and also give added strength to the dough. Potassium bromate is also very good for pizza doughs that call for a proofing before dressing and baking. That is one of the reasons why bromated flours are so popular for making Sicilian style pizzas where the dough is proofed in the pan and kept from falling (because of the bromates) before using to make the pizzas. Another outcome from the use of bromated flours is an increased oven spring due to the finer and weaker cell membrane structure that the bromate creates. As a result, the finished crumb can have a texture that is variously described as soft, open, light, fine, tender, fluffy and airy.

I mention all of the above because it is possible the the sub-par results that you achieved were due to the fact that you diluted the potassium bromate when you used a blend of the unbromated all-purpose flour and the bromated Bouncer flour. The dilution was by 25%, which is not an inconsequential dilution. Assuming that the dilution of the potassium bromate was the problem, that led me to investigate whether there are flours out there where the amount of potassium bromate is lower than in other flours. The answer is yes, but the specs typically do not give the specific amounts of the potassium bromate used. Also, it is possible that the flours with reduced potassium bromate will not have the protein content you used, as was discussed in my last post.

Peter

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2014, 03:10:26 PM »
GotRocks:  I would try GM full strenght or GM All Trumps.  Both are bromated.  I prefer FS and it makes a great crust that is crisp on the outside and chewy inside.  We cook at 550 on blodgett 1000 deck gas ovens for about 6 minutes.  The dough hydration is similar to yours but we don't add sugar or oil.  The yeast amount depends on how long the dough will be sitting in the cooler.  Dough balls are warmed to room temp for a few hours, hand tossed, cooked direct on deck.  I am from NJ and am pretty close to the NY style pie I was raised on.   

You could have a bad batch of bouncer?  I never have had this problem but have heard of flour going bad.   Walter
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 04:33:17 PM by waltertore »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2014, 04:16:13 PM »
You are probably over kneading the dough now making it bready and chewy.  Should only be kneading bouncer for like 1.5mins to not overdevelop the gluten.
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Offline GotRocks

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2014, 11:20:44 PM »
Thanks for the theories,

Since this is our slow season, we are only mixing small batches of dough, the flour gets sealed in a 5-gallon buckets, and we make several batches from the same bag of flour.

 I use a spiral mixer with a timer for shutdown,  and everything is weighed to the hundredth of an ounce on a Hobart certified Digital Deli scale,  so everything was exactly the same as my 25% APF blend and from the same bag of flour as other batches .

We do not let our dough come up to room temp before using it, we stretch it right out of the cooler, but we do lag it for 48 hours between mixing and use to get some flavor out of it. We are gaining popularity with our pizzas real quickly, and typically the first words out of the customers mouths are; "this crust is fantastic"

I am just surprised that we saw such a wild variation with such a small blend of APF. I only did the blending thing to teach my rookies how to stretch easier so they'd have a very easily workable dough, and apparently I stumbled across a very desirable product by surprise.  My typical small batch size is 7.5# Bouncer with 2.5# APF, give the formula a try. I mix in a spiral mixer for 13 minutes, rest the dough for 5 minutes, scale & ball, lag it for 48 hours, and stretch right out of the cooler.

I tried some all trumps back when we were still in the experimentation stage, and we liked what we got with the bouncer/APF better, maybe I'll give it another try both blended and straight.

I'm betting I'll just keep doing my goofy 25% blend.

In case anyone is curious, we are primarily a BBQ restaurant, that also does pizza. When we bought the property, it had a triple stack of 'Sveba Dahlen" classic pizza ovens, they are made in Sweden , run on 3-phase, and I can set my deck heat, top heat, and front to back differential temps independently. I was weary of them at first because I have always used blodgett gas deck ovens, but these 3-Phase ovens kick some serious butt! I also like the glass doors so our customers can see their pizza baking, (we are an open kitchen, everything is fully viewable to the public)

gotta go, my pie should be just about done baking, and i'm heading home to eat it and get some sleep.
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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2014, 07:45:11 AM »
I am curious to see your pies.   Could you post a picture of a cheese pie?   The reason I ask is because you are making thin crust and using a basic NY style dough and your mix time is anywhere from 3-7 minutes longer than the normal range.  Also stretching and baking direct from the cooler makes for a dough that will tear easy, not stretch very easy, and large bubbles will occur as it bakes.  Are you having to pop large bubbles in the crust as it bakes?  I wonder how much cheese you put on a pie/weight of the dough balls/what size are the pies?  A typical NY style pie will not have a lot of cheese but if you are going heavier than normal on the cheese/toppings it may help keep the bubbles down.  I am not suggesting you change anything because you like your product. I am just curious and would love to see some photos :)  Walter

PS:  I dig the bbq/pizza concept.   I lived in Austin TX for 11 years and learned alot from Stubbs about TX bbq. 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 08:11:10 AM by waltertore »


Offline pythonic

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2014, 11:04:14 AM »
Thanks for the theories,

Since this is our slow season, we are only mixing small batches of dough, the flour gets sealed in a 5-gallon buckets, and we make several batches from the same bag of flour.

 I use a spiral mixer with a timer for shutdown,  and everything is weighed to the hundredth of an ounce on a Hobart certified Digital Deli scale,  so everything was exactly the same as my 25% APF blend and from the same bag of flour as other batches .

We do not let our dough come up to room temp before using it, we stretch it right out of the cooler, but we do lag it for 48 hours between mixing and use to get some flavor out of it. We are gaining popularity with our pizzas real quickly, and typically the first words out of the customers mouths are; "this crust is fantastic"

I am just surprised that we saw such a wild variation with such a small blend of APF. I only did the blending thing to teach my rookies how to stretch easier so they'd have a very easily workable dough, and apparently I stumbled across a very desirable product by surprise.  My typical small batch size is 7.5# Bouncer with 2.5# APF, give the formula a try. I mix in a spiral mixer for 13 minutes, rest the dough for 5 minutes, scale & ball, lag it for 48 hours, and stretch right out of the cooler.

I tried some all trumps back when we were still in the experimentation stage, and we liked what we got with the bouncer/APF better, maybe I'll give it another try both blended and straight.

I'm betting I'll just keep doing my goofy 25% blend.

In case anyone is curious, we are primarily a BBQ restaurant, that also does pizza. When we bought the property, it had a triple stack of 'Sveba Dahlen" classic pizza ovens, they are made in Sweden , run on 3-phase, and I can set my deck heat, top heat, and front to back differential temps independently. I was weary of them at first because I have always used blodgett gas deck ovens, but these 3-Phase ovens kick some serious butt! I also like the glass doors so our customers can see their pizza baking, (we are an open kitchen, everything is fully viewable to the public)

gotta go, my pie should be just about done baking, and i'm heading home to eat it and get some sleep.

Your flour blend has been a popular choice of many members here for year.  Isn't it 33% APF though? 2.5 / 7.5.  The texture is really great at that dough ratio and that is why we love it.
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Offline GotRocks

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2014, 11:28:48 AM »
I must not of caught those postings of others blending flours. I just gave it a shot to lower my protein content to get a more workable dough.

I'm happy at 25% cut, I'd be afraid to go to 1/3'rd APF because i'm guessing my dough wouldn't have the strength I currently have
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2014, 03:25:25 PM »
I must not of caught those postings of others blending flours. I just gave it a shot to lower my protein content to get a more workable dough.

I'm happy at 25% cut, I'd be afraid to go to 1/3'rd APF because i'm guessing my dough wouldn't have the strength I currently have

Have any pics to share?  Would love to see.

Nate
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 03:43:21 PM by pythonic »
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Offline GotRocks

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2014, 12:00:35 PM »
Have any pics to share?  Would love to see.

Nate

I've never posted a pic here, lets see if I got it figured out, if I did get it figured out, there should be a pic of a Saus/pep pie in the oven through the glass door, and a pic of our Steak/lobster pizza

« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 12:02:13 PM by GotRocks »
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2014, 08:28:23 PM »
Mmm.  Steak and lobster looks great.  Awesome combo.

Nate
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Offline GotRocks

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Re: Dough experiment, and we had very undesirable results
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2014, 01:14:59 PM »
Mmm.  Steak and lobster looks great.  Awesome combo.

Nate

Thanx, we do those with 8 ounces raw tenderloin, 5 ounces diced raw lobster meat, garlic butter , heavy romano, light on the whole-milk mozz. and a pinch of crushed red pepper for a little color.
Our more popular offerings is with  just steak, and then we have the option of adding some blue cheese & bacon, to make it our "Black & Blue" Pie.

We do a bunch of crossovers between our BBQ and pizza too. The most popular right now has; Beef Brisket, Bacon, Mozz & topped white cheddar cheese curds also.
We do some debaucherous things around here since we are primarily known for our BBQ, my goal is to be what every other pizza place in my locality isn't.
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