Author Topic: dough will NOT form gluten?  (Read 1089 times)

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Offline stegosaurus!

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dough will NOT form gluten?
« on: February 15, 2014, 05:45:57 PM »
I have been having a problem lately with my dough coming out very soft. As soon as I start to stretch it it tears or gets super thing in little spots. I have tinkered with everything to figure it out, but in the end I think it must be a flour issue. I bought a 50# bag of all trumps and didn't store all of it in an air tight container. Lots of it was left in the bag. Is that what is causing my issue?
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Offline Pastaking

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2014, 06:05:21 PM »
If you can post your dough recipe maybe we can help. Have you had success with the all trump in the past?

Offline stegosaurus!

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 12:01:47 PM »
I use petezza's 18" formulation of the Lehmann dough. I have been making pizza 1-2 times a week for like 8 months and it is only in like the last two months (of which I haven't made pizza as often due to work) that I have had the issue. Nothing has changed. I don't understand it.
"I don't tell you how to surf, farm, make movies, or anything else that California is famous for. Don't tell us what is and isn't in our pizza." - Scott123

Offline pdog

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2014, 05:01:15 PM »
Could be over fermented.  An over fermented dough has a weakened gluten state, and will result in going holly quickly. 

Repeat the dough as  before by shave off fermentation time.  If no holes occur fermentation was the issue and not process. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 05:04:20 PM by pdog »

Offline stegosaurus!

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2014, 09:29:50 AM »
Could be over fermented.  An over fermented dough has a weakened gluten state, and will result in going holly quickly. 

Repeat the dough as  before by shave off fermentation time.  If no holes occur fermentation was the issue and not process.
It is not over fermentation. I never go more than 2 days usually 24 hours. Again, I have changed nothing from the previous 7 months of beautiful pies...
"I don't tell you how to surf, farm, make movies, or anything else that California is famous for. Don't tell us what is and isn't in our pizza." - Scott123

Offline Pastaking

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2014, 10:56:21 AM »
I know you stated nothing has changed but are you mixing it the same? same mixer or hand kneading? I dont think it is your flour, I keep my flour in its original bag and I always get consistent results. Can you explain how you mix your ingredients?

Offline pdog

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2014, 11:11:16 AM »
It is not over fermentation. I never go more than 2 days usually 24 hours. Again, I have changed nothing from the previous 7 months of beautiful pies...

Could you post your formula?  Dough can be overblown in 6 hours if the yeast level is too high. 

Although, since your request have recently change I would say this may not be your problem.

How old is the flour?  Is the flour bromated?

Offline Auralnauts

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 12:14:55 PM »
It is most likely how you're kneading the dough.
Dough, stretch, sauce, cheese; check.

Offline stegosaurus!

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2014, 07:27:38 PM »
It is most likely how you're kneading the dough.
But again, NOTHING has changed. I have been making pies exactly the same for probably 5-6 months now...
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Offline Steve

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2014, 07:42:48 PM »
But again, NOTHING has changed. I have been making pies exactly the same for probably 5-6 months now...

It would help if you would describe how you are making your dough. Give us kneading time, kneading method, etc...

I used to have that that same problem (soft dough, tearing, etc.) but it turned out that my dough wasn't hydrated enough. So I started using more water and kneading a little longer and I've never had a problem since. Using more water made the dough more sticky right out of the mixer, so I let it sit for 5-10 minutes and dust it with a little raw flour and it turns silky smooth and easy to handle.
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Offline stegosaurus!

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 10:18:12 PM »
It would help if you would describe how you are making your dough. Give us kneading time, kneading method, etc...

I used to have that that same problem (soft dough, tearing, etc.) but it turned out that my dough wasn't hydrated enough. So I started using more water and kneading a little longer and I've never had a problem since. Using more water made the dough more sticky right out of the mixer, so I let it sit for 5-10 minutes and dust it with a little raw flour and it turns silky smooth and easy to handle.
I use a method that Petezza described in his Lehmann thread. Mix yeast and flour, dissolve salt in water, dump flour/yeast into water, use paddle on 1 speed for 2 minutes, add oil and mix for a minute on 1 speed, switch to hook and mix for 7 minutes... I have Also done the as little kneading as possible route. Mixing to incorporate flour then mixing to incorporate oil and done. Both worked fine until all of a sudden no matter what I get the same dough now.

I've tried changing nothing and I have tried changing yeast amounts, hydration, fermentation time, adding sugar, ditching oil... it all leads to the same crap. It's happened like 10 or more times now. It is getting beyond frustrating.
"I don't tell you how to surf, farm, make movies, or anything else that California is famous for. Don't tell us what is and isn't in our pizza." - Scott123

Offline stegosaurus!

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 10:24:48 PM »
Thanks for the responses guys, I will try increasing the hydration more than I have before and maybe a long knead? Maybe that will help. It's just frustrating because I made good pies for months.
"I don't tell you how to surf, farm, make movies, or anything else that California is famous for. Don't tell us what is and isn't in our pizza." - Scott123

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 11:19:38 PM »
Toss your yeast and your flour and start with a clean slate.

Bob
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Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2014, 05:15:39 AM »
how about we all get a nice detailed list of your process, ingredients, and recipe so we can tell you why your process isn't the same? i don't want to hear 'i use xxx's recipe' i want to see what numbers you use.
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Offline stegosaurus!

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2014, 01:23:24 PM »
Toss your yeast and your flour and start with a clean slate.

Bob
I doubt it's the yeast as its fairly new and I can usually tell when there are yeast issues. I do think the flour may be an issue, however.
"I don't tell you how to surf, farm, make movies, or anything else that California is famous for. Don't tell us what is and isn't in our pizza." - Scott123

Offline stegosaurus!

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2014, 01:35:36 PM »
how about we all get a nice detailed list of your process, ingredients, and recipe so we can tell you why your process isn't the same? i don't want to hear 'i use xxx's recipe' i want to see what numbers you use.
Flour, high-gluten (100%), 16.10 oz.
Water (63%), 10.15 oz.
Salt (1.75%), 0.28 oz.
Oil (1%), 0.16 oz. (1 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.04 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

I put the water and the salt in the bowl of my stand mixer and stirred them a bit. I then combine the flour and IDY and add them all at once to the water in the bowl. Using the paddle attachment, I mix the ingredients in the bowl for about 2 minutes at #1 (low) speed. At the end of the 2 minutes, the flour is fully taken up into the dough. I then add the olive oil and, continuing to use the paddle attachment, knead the oil into the dough at #1 speed for about a minute or two. After the olive oil is fully incorporated into the dough, I switch to the dough hook and continue to knead the dough, at #3 speed (out of 10), for about 7 minutes.
"I don't tell you how to surf, farm, make movies, or anything else that California is famous for. Don't tell us what is and isn't in our pizza." - Scott123

Offline pdog

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2014, 03:43:58 PM »
Flour, high-gluten (100%), 16.10 oz.
Water (63%), 10.15 oz.
Salt (1.75%), 0.28 oz.
Oil (1%), 0.16 oz. (1 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.04 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

I put the water and the salt in the bowl of my stand mixer and stirred them a bit. I then combine the flour and IDY and add them all at once to the water in the bowl. Using the paddle attachment, I mix the ingredients in the bowl for about 2 minutes at #1 (low) speed. At the end of the 2 minutes, the flour is fully taken up into the dough. I then add the olive oil and, continuing to use the paddle attachment, knead the oil into the dough at #1 speed for about a minute or two. After the olive oil is fully incorporated into the dough, I switch to the dough hook and continue to knead the dough, at #3 speed (out of 10), for about 7 minutes.

Are you cold fermenting your dough in the fridge?  If not, this will be over blown in 8 hours.  With that level of yeast 22-26 hours is all you would get our of a cold ferment process before the dough over-ferments. IMO

I use the c hook for the entire mixing process.

I do 4 minutes with 1/2 the flour weight.  I then incorporate a 1/4 more flour, and mix another 4 minutes.  At this times the dough is still really wet, but should be smooth.  I then add the remaining 1/4 flour weight and mix another 4 minutes.  The challenge is to keep the dough from simply spinning round and round within the bowl. 

After this I complete 2 stretch and folds every 10 minutes for 2 reps.  This should give you enough gluten formation to allow the dough to be ready for use in 24 hours. 


Offline JD

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2014, 04:09:19 PM »
I doubt it's the yeast as its fairly new and I can usually tell when there are yeast issues. I do think the flour may be an issue, however.

Why don't you buy a bag of bread flour to feed your curiosity?

Josh

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2014, 04:18:12 PM »
Since Mikey (stegausaurus!) only started to have the problems with his dough fairly recently, I do not believe that the problem is his dough formulation, or his method of making the dough, or the amount of yeast. Mikey originally said that he lives in Alexandria, Virginia. That is a region that has been quite cold recently, with daytime temperatures in the forties and nighttime temperatures around freezing. If Mikey strives for a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F, and assuming he is cold fermenting the dough, he shouldn't have a problem of overfermenting with IDY at 0.25%. Where I live in Texas, I would be using around 0.40-0.45% IDY this time of year without incident. Mikey's dough should last one or two days, and if everything is kept cold, the dough could make it out to three days of cold fermentation. If three days is his target, he might add around 1% sugar to have adequate food for the yeast.

In line with what Chicago Bob and Josh (JD) have said, I would be inclined to try new flour. If Mikey can't get a new source of All Trumps high-gluten flour, he might simply try using bread flour, such as the King Arthur bread flour. If he'd like, he can follow the instructions I set forth starting at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg19563;topicseen#msg19563 but use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html with his particular set of input values to be able to make 18" pizzas.

Peter

Offline stegosaurus!

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Re: dough will NOT form gluten?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2014, 06:52:58 PM »
Why don't you buy a bag of bread flour to feed your curiosity?
that was my next step. I have quite a bit of the all trumps left and wanted to see if it was me or some other aspect. I also wanted to make sure that I wasn't out of the loop on some easy bug to fix.
"I don't tell you how to surf, farm, make movies, or anything else that California is famous for. Don't tell us what is and isn't in our pizza." - Scott123