Author Topic: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.  (Read 1363 times)

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Offline BillyCorgan

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Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« on: February 17, 2014, 02:56:53 AM »
Hi all,

Please see the pictures below of my first attempts to make dough.  After you're done laughing, please see if you can help me determine why this happened?

Note:  I live in China and do not have access to the best of ingredients, but I'm not sure if the problem is in the ingredients or my process. I am not using baker's percentages.

Ingredients:  "High Gluten, 19% protein, bread dough"  Olive Oil, Salt, Sugar, Water, Instant Dry Yeast


1) Put 1.5 teaspoons if Instant Dry Yeast into 1 cup of warm water
2) Mix the IDY for 20 seconds and let it sit for 10 minutes

3) In a separate bowl, mix 1 teaspoon of salt, and 2 teaspoons of sugar, into 2 cups of flour.
4) Pour the water and IDY into the dough mix.  Mix for 1 minute
5) Put 2 tablespoons of olive oil into the dough.  Knead for 1 minute.
6) Take dough out and cover for 5 minutes

7) Knead dough for 10 minutes.
8) Portion dough into balls, cover, and let sit for 6 hours.

In step 7, the dough is very sticky/slimy and sticks to my marble counter. If I put a lot of dough down on the counter it won't stick, but seems to be absorbing a lot of dough.

In step 8, I never get to see a solid dough ball like I do in the videos.  It still seems slimy at that stage and sticks to my fingers.

The finished result is pictured below after it has sit for 6 hours.  It's still sticking to my fingers and does not look edible.  Any idea by looking at this mess below what I'm doing wrong?



Online dylandylan

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2014, 03:41:23 AM »
Well you definitely have dough there!!   :)

Without knowing the exact weights that the cups equate to, my guess is you've made something close to a 100% hydration dough - where the weight of the liquid ingredients is the same as the weight of the flour.   That's a wet dough for pizza alright.   The protein level in flour is a bit high too, but I bet you can still make pizza with that kind of flour.

If you want to keep things simple I would stick to your recipe, but use three cups of flour instead of two.  This will bring the hydration of the dough down to around 63%, which is closer to a normal pizza hydration and you should get something much closer to a dough ball.

In the meantime that wet dough would probably make a mean ciabatta.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 03:47:57 AM by dylandylan »

Offline BillyCorgan

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2014, 04:12:46 AM »
Well you definitely have dough there!!   :)

Without knowing the exact weights that the cups equate to, my guess is you've made something close to a 100% hydration dough - where the weight of the liquid ingredients is the same as the weight of the flour.   That's a wet dough for pizza alright.   The protein level in flour is a bit high too, but I bet you can still make pizza with that kind of flour.

If you want to keep things simple I would stick to your recipe, but use three cups of flour instead of two.  This will bring the hydration of the dough down to around 63%, which is closer to a normal pizza hydration and you should get something much closer to a dough ball.

In the meantime that wet dough would probably make a mean ciabatta.

I threw the dough in the trashcan and the trash rejected it.

I will try adding 1 cup to see if this helps :) Thanks

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 04:28:35 AM »
3 cups of flour is a 'pound', and there is 15 cups to a 5lb bag. if you measure out 15 cups from the bag, do the math. a gallon of water is 8.6lbs (for roundings sake) and there is 16 cups in a gallon. 3 cups of flour, 1 cup of water is around 'hand tossed' in terms of throwing it around NY style. if you are going to use the dough later on (2-3 days), using 1 1/4 to 1 1/3 will absorb more into the flour.

you can do the math and adjust your measurements as needed
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2014, 09:36:18 AM »
BillyCorgan,

I agree with the other members. Without knowing how you measured out the flour volumetrically but assuming that you did something like a scoop and level, I estimate that the hydration of the dough was around 88%. However, the oil also has a "wetting" effect and, at two tablespoons, that perhaps created an "effective" hydration of around 99%.

Also, at 1.5 teaspoons of IDY, based on my assumptions as mentioned above that comes to around 2.14%. That is far more than needed for a dough to be fermented at room temperature for about 6 hours. Moreover, using all warm water will also expedite the fermentation process. Even when the hydration is right, you rarely need more than about 0.8% IDY, along with warm water, for an emergency dough that is ready to be used within a few hours.

Finally, I have never heard of a high gluten flour with a protein content of 19%. At the professional level, the highest protein content I have seen for a high gluten flour is around 14.5-14.6%, and flours at those levels are not commonly used at all. Most professionals in the U.S. use high gluten flours at around 14-14.2% (reported on a 14% moisture basis).

I think the solution in your case is to first determine what kind of dough you want to make, based on the style of pizza you want to make, and then look for a recipe that will fill those needs. And you might want to get a decent digital scale and learn how to work with baker's percents.

Peter


Offline waltertore

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2014, 10:00:28 AM »
Billy:  I admire your go for it attitude :)  Being in China must be rough- a language that doesn't resemble western in spoken or written, cultural confusions over pizza, finding the right ingredients, etc.  I lived in Brussels for 2.5 years and the language/cultural differences wore us out many a day.  Have you considered a trip back to the states to get your pizza skills down?  That way you could communicate clearly to the people in China that could get you ingredients/equipment, etc.   Walter
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 10:07:11 AM by waltertore »

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2014, 12:12:10 PM »
every bag of flour states that a 1/4 cup is 30 grams, so a cup would be 30 x 4 or 120 grams. Since a pound is 454 grams, a pound is equal to roughly 3 3/4 cups. The problem is, I don't think anyone can free scoop and be that accurate, I have done many trials and most people will free scoop up to 20% greater weight then should be in a pound, that is why measurements in "cups" are so inaccurate

Offline BillyCorgan

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2014, 12:36:42 PM »
Billy:  I admire your go for it attitude :)  Being in China must be rough- a language that doesn't resemble western in spoken or written, cultural confusions over pizza, finding the right ingredients, etc.  I lived in Brussels for 2.5 years and the language/cultural differences wore us out many a day.  Have you considered a trip back to the states to get your pizza skills down?  That way you could communicate clearly to the people in China that could get you ingredients/equipment, etc.   Walter

 Hey Walter, thanks for the reply! I have lived here for eight years so I speak Mandarin, but there are definitely a bunch of challenges like finding good ingredients. On top of it, my background is in management, not cooking.

If any kind souls in the NJ, DC, PA area that would be willing to spend some time with me in March and show me how to make pizzas, I'd really appreciate it.   :)

-BillyCorgan

Offline waltertore

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2014, 12:42:50 PM »
Hey Walter, thanks for the reply! I have lived here for eight years so I speak Mandarin, but there are definitely a bunch of challenges like finding good ingredients. On top of it, my background is in management, not cooking.

If any kind souls in the NJ, DC, PA area that would be willing to spend some time with me in March and show me how to make pizzas, I'd really appreciate it.   :)

-BillyCorgan

Billy:  We are in Newark Ohio which is 35 miles due east of Columbus.  I would be happy to help you get orientated.  Our spring break is the last week of March.   That would allow for uniterupted time.  Otherwise we could work after schoool/weekends.  We have a detached building/recording studio on our property that has a full bath/bed.  You can stay there.   Non smoking and ok with dogs are our only rules :)  I may have my childhood best friend out here that week.  He digs making pies too.  Walter

Offline scash2014

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 05:43:11 PM »
I'm certainly no dough making expert- I just started about a year ago. But I use Pillsbury bread flour. I put a cup of flour in a bowl as a starter and mix my dry ingredients. Then I add water too it. Generally one cup of water make about 16 ounces of dough. I mix in the olive oil. Then I ad flour and mix until it is relatively stable. At that point, I turn it on to a floured surface and start kneading. I add more flour incrementally as needed until it is finished. Usually around five minutes.

That may be completely wrong. But it seems to work. I have developed all my cooking techniques through trial and error since I don't really have anyone to guide me. What I did find when I first started making dough is that following preset recipes wasn't working for me.


Also, I did try a really cheap brand of flour once. Granted it was all-purpose, but everything I made with it (bread, bulkie rolls , pizza dough and pancakes) was awful. Much worse than with name brand flour. So I think it does make a difference.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 05:46:30 PM by scash2014 »


Offline BillyCorgan

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2014, 11:48:28 AM »
Thanks for the advice guys.

I only needed a couple dough balls, so I used 1.5 cups flour.  Then I took half the water that I had last time, half cup.  It was super dry when mixing, so I added 1/3 cup water, and then 1/4 cup on top of that.  My math is bad, I don't know where that leaves me.

IDY 1/2 teaspoon , salt 1/2 teaspoon, sugar 1 teaspoon, olive oil 2 teaspoons.

lol, I was basically just messing around and not following any recipe..just gauging it by eye.  At the very least, I was able to form an actual dough ball this time.  I guess we'll see the final result tomorrow morning.


Offline norma427

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2014, 12:35:10 PM »
Billy,

I think if you want to learn to make a decent pizza dough you might want to read Peter's comments and look at Peter's posts on this thread starting at Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg19563#msg19563  It might give you an idea of what goes into making a NY style dough. 

I am bad at math too, but the dough calculations tools are easy to use once you understand how to use them.

Norma
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Online dylandylan

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2014, 12:44:21 PM »
Great progress!   I think what you've done by feel rather than by strictly following a recipe is a good approach.  If it works well you'll know next time roughly where to start.

I'm a little surprised that you managed to get ballable dough given that with the additional water you put it sounds like you had 1.5 cups of flour, and just over 1 cup of water, which would normally make for a *really* wet dough, wetter than the first attempt you pictured, almost a batter.   I'm starting to wonder if the 19% protein flour you have is a little odd! 

In any case, I'll never argue with results and I'll be interested to see how you go with these two balls. Good luck with baking them!

Offline BillyCorgan

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2014, 09:14:48 AM »
Thanks for the link Norma and for the feedback Dylan.

So I left out a piece of information.  Of the two dough balls, I wound up adding a bunch of flour to one of them to make it dryer. The dough sat covered at room temperature for 10 hours.  The wetter dough ball tore apart a bit while stretching.  I tried to salvage it but it died a sad death.   I wound up using the dryer dough for the finished 10 inch pizza.

I've attached a picture of the dough I'm using.  From top to bottom it's "Calories / Protein / Fat / Carbohydrate / Na".  It is in fact 19% protein.

The sauce I used was a Ricotta made by Barilla.  It was actually really tasty.  My options are limited in China and at $6 a bottle I'll have to learn to make sauce from tomatoes I guess.

For the cheese, I used 100% mild cheddar. It was also good.

The finished product turned out..well, edible.  As you can see from the pictures, the dough is a little too "doughy" and white, but it was cooked inside. Not crispy like I had hoped but I'm limited to a small portable oven that only goes up to 475 degrees. Maybe I need to buy a perforated tray? The center of the pizza was a bit too thin. You can see this in the pic below where the crust is lifted. 

I don't even know what kind of pizza it wound up being.. neopolitan? thin? Or, let's just call it a new breed "Chinese"

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2014, 11:31:55 AM »
Thanks for the link Norma and for the feedback Dylan.

So I left out a piece of information.  Of the two dough balls, I wound up adding a bunch of flour to one of them to make it dryer. The dough sat covered at room temperature for 10 hours.  The wetter dough ball tore apart a bit while stretching.  I tried to salvage it but it died a sad death.   I wound up using the dryer dough for the finished 10 inch pizza.

I've attached a picture of the dough I'm using.  From top to bottom it's "Calories / Protein / Fat / Carbohydrate / Na".  It is in fact 19% protein.

The sauce I used was a Ricotta made by Barilla.  It was actually really tasty.  My options are limited in China and at $6 a bottle I'll have to learn to make sauce from tomatoes I guess.

For the cheese, I used 100% mild cheddar. It was also good.

The finished product turned out..well, edible.  As you can see from the pictures, the dough is a little too "doughy" and white, but it was cooked inside. Not crispy like I had hoped but I'm limited to a small portable oven that only goes up to 475 degrees. Maybe I need to buy a perforated tray? The center of the pizza was a bit too thin. You can see this in the pic below where the crust is lifted. 

I don't even know what kind of pizza it wound up being.. neopolitan? thin? Or, let's just call it a new breed "Chinese"

are there canned tomatoes there?

if you want crispy, half sugar and use 1/4 the oil. bake it at a higher temp (550f if possible) and keep an eye on top/bottom browning. you may have to juggle rack positions to get an even bake
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Online Sirius

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2014, 11:50:19 AM »
No its a convenience Sauce for Pasta...Not the best for making Pizza.

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2014, 02:00:30 PM »
No its a convenience Sauce for Pasta...Not the best for making Pizza.

a simple can of whole/peeled/chunk/diced/in thick puree tomatoes, blend it smooth, taste it. salt and/or sugar if you need to, some basil and oregano, 1T olive oil per ~28oz can, maybe some black pepper and chili flakes. if you have a runny sauce, dicing and mincing onion, one that isn't soft and mace in your eyes won't work, will set the sauce like pectin.
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Offline dmckean44

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2014, 02:16:20 PM »
a simple can of whole/peeled/chunk/diced/in thick puree tomatoes, blend it smooth, taste it. salt and/or sugar if you need to, some basil and oregano, 1T olive oil per ~28oz can, maybe some black pepper and chili flakes. if you have a runny sauce, dicing and mincing onion, one that isn't soft and mace in your eyes won't work, will set the sauce like pectin.

Does he have easy access to things like olive oil and oregano in China? The important thing is salting to taste and getting basil and some sort of savory/earthy Italian herb like oregano, marjoram, thyme, or even just parsley. Some garlic can be nice too depending on what you're going for.

Offline BillyCorgan

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2014, 05:30:38 PM »
Does he have easy access to things like olive oil and oregano in China? The important thing is salting to taste and getting basil and some sort of savory/earthy Italian herb like oregano, marjoram, thyme, or even just parsley. Some garlic can be nice too depending on what you're going for.

I have access to olive oil here. It's quite expensive though.  Not sure for mass production purposes if this can be replaced with vegetable oil?

As for canned tomatoes I have never seen them here but haven't looked for it.. so it could exist but I'll have to find it.  Oregano definitely doesn't but I can smuggle some in during my next trip back to the US.  As you can see above, I had some "italian seasoning" spice on top of the pizza.

Offline dmckean44

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Re: Please laugh at my dough, and then help me.
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2014, 07:44:24 PM »
Ok, try to find whatever canned tomato products you can and post the pictures here. We can work on a sauce then. Your best bet might just be adding Italian seasoning and salting/sweetening to taste. I think it will be best to work with what you have available locally rather than relying on expensive imported products. See if you can find fresh basil, even if it's the wrong type of basil it could work great for sauce.


 

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