Stromboli.........Not too off topic

[iceman06]

Well I sure like the looks of the stromboli you guys made and will have to try it soon. I am confused as all get out about the definitions. David says candyman is off base but doesn't say why? From what I have read it seems close to me. Can anyone help me out here? Regardless I'll be making some soon. You folks have a great new year.
Pat

[David]

  Calzoni is rolled like a jelly roll.    Stromboli are made just like a pizza with all the toppings on one half of the pie (heaped up) and then the empty side of the pizza is folded over the toppings forming a half pie (or half moon shape).  Then, usually with a fork or ravioli cutter the sides are sealed together.  That is the difference and both come from Sicily.



~Candyman~

I believe Candyman is confusing the two, and by confirming his statement by stating that he is from an Italian family he may well convince others who have never seen or heard of the product that he is in fact correct ,
                                                                                                                                           David
                                                             

[Finnegans Wake]

I never realized that stromboli and calzone might be localized (live in Harrisburg, ~100 mi. from Philly).  It's been a standard part of pizzeria menus all my life, here and at college.  I've had strombolis jelly-rolled and folded over and crimped, but usually pizzerias jelly-roll them.  And yes, the primary difference is that bolis are red-sauce based, and calzones are white, that is, they have a ricotta base; also, as Solomon said, calzones are crimped.  Never had one of them jelly-rolled.   Now, you can add in meats or whatever to your calzone, but some of the best ones I ever had were plain cheese calzones that I had in college... And I won't go down that particular alley of recollection...


So I think candyman had it right, if I may stick up for him.  Not sure what all the "anger" is about with him being "misleading."  At least, my 40 years experience of eating bolis and calzones backs up his version.

Solomon, your bolis sounds really interesting, and this thread is inspiring me to take my pizza experimentation into the field of bolis.  As for your Giants, all I can say is that at the beginning of the season I was predicting my Steelers would repeat and face the Giants from the NFC.  Yeah.  Oh well.  Weird, weird year.  The way we crapped it up this year, I've decided to start the new Pynchon novel and who cares about the postseason...    Super Bowl?  I suppose it's another excuse to make some pies.  Or bolis!  Or calzones!

[iceman06]

Ok guys I think I have it now. Calzones are folded over and crimped, white sauce (ricotta) based for the most part. Sometimes with meat and other cheezes.
Stromboli's are usually rolled jelly roll style, tomato based sauce most of the time. Meats, sausages, cheeses, etc. for the filling.
Most of the links I read say this also, so I think candyman just had the preperation of them backwards. That is where I was getting messed up (which is easy with my pea brain)
I sure do like the response and input this forum gives. Keep up the great job and thank you again. Pat

[David]

  Not sure what all the "anger" is about with him being "misleading."  At least, my 40 years experience of eating bolis and calzones backs up his version.

My apologies if my comments came across as in any way angry, that was not my intention.I simply disagree with what candyman stated.IMO Once the lines of definition of a product become blurred,then too often it's characteristics change and something entirely different can become accepted, which is very different than just giving a different name to an product.I once saw a sign in  an Italian Pizzeria in New York for something called a "Ippy Roll" ?I later discovered after talking to the thick accented owner that this was a "Hippie Roll".What's a Hippie Roll I asked?It's just like a Stomboli I was told.No,I think I'll have a Grinder instead.What's that?It's just like a Hoagie.No you mean a Sub?
My point is, regardless of the fillings the fundamental difference between a Calzone and Stromboli is the way the ingredients are  enclosed in the dough.Different technique.Different name.
                                                                                                                                         David

[iceman06]

Inspired by PizzaDan here was my first try at a stromboli. Man! It was soooo.... good! Thanks for the help guys.

[Bill/SFNM]

Lots of excess dough balls lately, so been making lots of stromboli with the leftover dough, sauce, cheese, etc. I like the picture below because it shows what I have been striving for. The dough is stretched very thin, but the oven spring inside creates the perfect texture for the whole thing. This is a Caputo 00 dough - 64% hydration, baked on a stone in the conventional oven at 400F. Camaldoli starter gives it a great flavor too!

Bill/SFNM

[Musky]

Here's my first attempt.  Had to try it after seeing the great pictures in this thread.  They turned out okay.  I used cappicola, Genoa salami, prosciutto, fresh mozzarella, provolone, and hot gardeneria.  I drizzled with truffle oil and sprinkled lightly with basil and oregano.

To be honest, I way over did the strong flavors.  Needed to be simpler.  I also egg washed the bottom which was probably a mistake, as they stuck on the screen.  They also cracked open a bit and greased up my pizza stone through the screen.

The pictures didn't turn out that well either.

Kevin

[nepa-pizza-snob]

I make a similar roll with fresh sauted spinach, roasted garlic, hot pepper, ricotta, and provolone  It is sinfull!!!!!!

[Bryan S]

Well I sure like the looks of the stromboli you guys made and will have to try it soon. I am confused as all get out about the definitions. David says candyman is off base but doesn't say why? From what I have read it seems close to me. Can anyone help me out here? Regardless I'll be making some soon. You folks have a great new year.
Pat

A Calzone is the shape of a half moon and does not contain red sauce. A stromboli is in the shape of a jelly roll, but you do not roll it up like a jelly roll (well at least not here in Central PA). Just fold the dough over and crimp on the outside like pizza Dan's pics, which look awsome. 
Here's a pic of a Calzone

[beammeup]

I have seen them at airports in Cincinnati and I think Houston. Very good a little heavy on the pepperoni though and the sauce was on the side. I have actually rerouted my flights so I could go through Cincinnati for a Stromboli. I have also sailed past the Island of Stromboli just north or Sicilly (I am a merchant seaman) thinking of stopping in to see if I could get one there. After seeing the pictures on this thread I will definitely try to make one on my next pizza night.

[Jamie]

Dan, that's a great looking stombol. As for the calzone, it was invented in New Haven, Connecticut at a place called Tony and Lucille's. Another Wooster Street classic.

[Bill/SFNM]

As for the calzone, it was invented in New Haven, Connecticut at a place called Tony and Lucille's. Another Wooster Street classic.

Do you have any kind of documentation for this claim? According to P. S. Johns in Pizza Napoletano, the calzone (pizza ripiena) was sold as street food in Naples as far back as the eighteenth century.

Bill/SFNM

[Jamie]

Bill, I wouldn't doubt that fact from Pizza Napoletano. I believe that T&L's claim has to do with inventing (popularizing) the dish in the US. There is quite a bit of information about this out there, but it's just the same basic claim that I made, that comes directly from the restaurant itself.

[David]

Inventing and  popularizing are very different and should be used carefully IMO.We don't need to confuse people any more than they already have are? ( as you observed regarding  New Haven / New York Pizza )

[Jamie]

Well in New Haven the general population believes that T&L's invented the calzone. Perhaps that is the case, who's to say it's not, Pamela Johns? Maybe she needed some filler in her book to make it more complete, I don't know. Maybe the population of Naples is being romantic about their region making great claims about the calzone! I don't know! Who's to really say?

[November]

Considering that there exist theories as to where Italians got the idea for calzones, and that the idea proceeding from any of those theories predates even the founding of the United States of America, I think it's pretty safe to assume the calzone was not invented in Connecticut.

http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html#portable

[sourdough girl]

Thanks for the great link, red.november... it is a wealth of information... and even quotes Evelyn Slomon in the pizza chapter.

Since open-faced pies (aka tarts) are delicious and nutritious but messy to pack around, it was inevitable that they would be folded over for a less messy meal on the road or on the job for the working class.  Every culture has their derivation, hence the calzone and stromboli (and Cornish pastie... and pirogies... and...) all of which WA-A-AY predate New Haven.  Just because the population believes it, or a restaurant claims it, doesn't make it so.  Follow the link and you will learn LOTS... and not just about calzones!

~sd

[Jamie]

Considering that there exist theories as to where Italians got the idea for calzones, and that the idea proceeding from any of those theories predates even the founding of the United States of America, I think it's pretty safe to assume the calzone was not invented in Connecticut.

http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html#portable

Great link November. Very informative. However that description of a calzone better describes a stromboli. Perhaps the name has been around longer then New Haven, but it's the NH style calzone (stuffed dough with ricotta) that we as Americans are familiar with. Even in Italy they argue about what a true calzone is:
http://tinyurl.com/39ab3p
I'll stick with New Haven.

[sourdough girl]

Jamie,
Just because they argue in Italy (and BTW, that link is such a rough translation, how can you tell what points they are really trying to make?) about what is IN a calzone doesn't prove your point about New Haven being the cradle of the calzone.  In Italy, they'll argue about just about anything... or rather, everything... because there are as many different calzone fillings are there are people making them!  Just as every recipe for minestrone, for instance, is different based on season, household and/or region of Italy, the same is true of other working class food.

In my go-to food reference "Food Lover's Companion" by Sharon Tyler Herbst,
she defines calzones:
"Originating in Naples, calzone is a half-moon shaped stuffed pizza.  It is usually made as an individual serving.  The fillings can be various meats, vegetables or cheese; mozzarella is the cheese used most frequently.  Calzones can be deep fried or brushed with olive oil and baked"
She defines stromboli:
"A specialty of Philadelphia, a stromboli is an enclosed calzonelike sandwich of cheese (usually mozzarella) and pepperoni (or other meat) wrapped in pizza dough."
Nota Bene: she said "a specialty of Philadelphia" not INVENTED in Philadelphia.  Also, the italic emphasis is mine, esp. "wrapped" meaning that it is NOT half moon shaped... it is wrapped, therefore more tubular.  I think you have your definitions confused.  You can call a dog "cat" if you like and all you want, but that doesn't make it a cat.

To be honest, I am not familiar with ricotta in a calzone until this thread, so, don't lump me in with the "we as Americans are familiar with" because I've never heard of it!  I have always heard that a calzone was filled with mozz or prov.  Yes, I live on the Left Coast, but I have spent many years on the East Coast, mostly in NE Pennsy and Virginia.  My time in CT was spent in Groton.  So, if you want to claim a RICOTTA filled calzone as the New Haven VERSION, more power to you... but the calzone itself is a child of Naples.  Even Lombardi's, the known birthplace of American Pizza doesn't have the effrontery to claim they invented it!

~sd