Author Topic: Donatos Take & Bake  (Read 1939 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2014, 06:02:20 PM »
Cassano's crust is not really like Donatos. Cassano's is extremely thin and is more of a cracker crust. I don't think Cassano's crust is laminated. I don't know if Cassano's uses the same dough that they make available through distributors. Since most of my extended family lives around Dayton, I've had Cassano's many times. (They had at least a couple stores in Columbus when I was a kid, too.) However, I know essentially nothing about their pizza. (I haven't had Cassano's since about July 2010, so my memory is a bit hazy.) My grandpa turns 90 next month, so I'll probably head Dayton-ways for that. Maybe I'll pick up a Cassano's pizza while I'm over there.


Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2014, 06:13:04 PM »
i do not use this product bit pz44 is a whey of some type. it is supposed to relax the dough and reduce shrinking. wounder if that is how the way is used?
 also, is cassano's dough close to donato's, it is available thru sysco foods
 
I think Tom once said PZ44 can have an over oxidizing effect. I know that Peter doesn't recommend it cause in a home dough setting; whats the hurry.

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2014, 06:24:35 PM »
i do not use this product bit pz44 is a whey of some type. it is supposed to relax the dough and reduce shrinking. wounder if that is how the way is used?
 also, is cassano's dough close to donato's, it is available thru sysco foods
 


Larry,

As you can see from http://web.archive.org/web/20111124052707/http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Specifications/TDS_PZ44_450.pdf, PZ-44 comprises L-cysteine and whey. However, I would be surprised if Donatos is using that product since I believe that they would be required to specify the L-cysteine under FDA rules and regulations (http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=172.320 ).

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2014, 06:36:02 PM »
I know that Peter doesn't recommend it cause in a home dough setting; whats the hurry.

Bob

Bob,

PZ-44 is a commercial product that professionals sometimes use to tame a "bucky" (overly elastic) dough. Most often it is a dough with a lot of gluten, such as a dough based on a high gluten flour. PZ-44 is also sometimes used in doughs that are to be formed into skins using hot or cold presses. Most nonprofessionals don't have access to PZ-44 but I wouldn't have a problem if a home pizza maker used it since L-cysteine is a safe product to use. However, home pizza makers usually don't need to use PZ-44 if they make and ferment their dough properly.

Peter

Offline thezaman

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2014, 08:17:35 PM »
 ryan the pizza choice in dayton is marrion's. they were the independent of the year in 2013. similar thin crust only had it once. i use to kill a large casano's every time i visited columbus. i think donato's drove then out of town.

Offline thezaman

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2014, 08:11:46 PM »
today i made a attempt at a donatos pizza.i used ryan's dough and sauce. i added a little milk to the mix 27 grams. the flour was 500 grams of gm harvest king. at that weight 1 egg was the exact percentage 53 grams that ryan used. i bulk rose it all day then balled it at 9 ounces. my pans were only 11 inches so the conversion worked out to 9 ounces.i used a cheater pan that had a little lip and i stretched the dough even with the lip. i put Crisco in the pan sprinkled corn meal rolled the dough to fit and dropped it in. sauce was rolled on grande 50/50 prov mozz was spread down then a 75/ 25 romano to oregano. i baked it at about 500 degrees. it was close in taste and texture, i think.it has been a long time since i had their pizza. i will have to try one this week for reference.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2014, 01:05:14 PM »
It's hard to say for sure, but that looks pretty Donatos-like to me. I think the profile shot is the best one.

I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but I know my Donatos clone dough management is not quite right. When I tried doing Donatos, I didn't leave my skin at room temperature for long enough before baking, so my attempted clone came out a little too dense. Also, I think I may have changed the egg percentage a little from the formula earlier in the other Donatos thread (which I used as a model for my formula). Specifically, I changed some things to make it so one egg fit the formula's egg percentage.

One thing I've been wondering about lately: Is at least one Marion's unit located in a building that used to be a Shakey's? I read a bunch of Marion's reviews a while back, and it said that you have order drinks at a different place than where you order your food. This immediately evoked imagery of Shakey's. And I think Shakey's used to exist in Ohio about 40 years ago.

Oh yeah, and Donatos sauce has a noticeably sugary taste nowadays. (I say this because I didn't indicate to use sugar in the sauce.)

Offline thezaman

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2014, 06:19:15 PM »
 Ryan, i do not think that marrions is a shakeys knockoff. unless the owner had work at a shakeys and based his recipe on their pizza. they started in 1965, and were one of the first sit down pizzerias in dayton. their style is called dayton style. i know in 2013 they were the number one independent in  pizza today magazine. 10 million in sales for only 7 stores,pretty impressive
 on my donato's attempt i forgot to dock the dough.  today i picked up some ground basil, i do not remember seeing any basil in the sauce but you could taste it. is my memory playing tricks or do you remember the same? i also tried to make a pepperoni donato's.cannot compare it to there's  i only eat the plain cheese didn't look to hot but here it is.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2014, 10:18:14 PM »
I just meant to indicate that the building description sounded like it may be similar to a Shakey's building, not that I think Marion's pizza grew out of Shakey's pizza.

There is definitely a Dayton style of pizza, as I've heard Marion's is the same style as Cassano's. There's an independent place in Germantown (where my dad is from) that resembles Cassano's in a lot of ways, too. Very thin, crispy, bright/simple sauce, party cut (of course).

There is basil in Donatos sauce, but maybe just barely enough to taste. Just basil, some salt, and a noticeable amount of sugar, I'd say. Having taken Donatos sauce home from work in glass jars, I can confirm that there's not much to see in the sauce. Since they don't make sauce in-store, I can't really tell you much else. Someone likened their sauce to tomato soup. I think that's a good comparison. I think if you used Campbell's tomato soup diluted just right, it would probably work very well.

I have no idea what pepperoni Donatos uses, but I think Patrick Cudahy Pavone is very similar to what they use. I think that's what Walter uses. (You just went to his classroom this weekend, didn't you? D'OH!)


Offline thezaman

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2014, 12:02:50 AM »
 ryan, due to the weather we did not go.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2014, 07:23:20 PM »
I think I'm about ready to finally take another stab at cloning Donatos, but I'd like some feedback first.

What I plan to do is roll a couple skins immediately after mixing the dough, rather than allowing the dough to rise at all, then freezing the skins indefinitely. It makes sense to me that the Donatos commissary may do it that way, but I can also envision the commissary possibly allowing the dough to bulk ferment before sheeting and freezing.

So does anyone think I should allow the dough to bulk ferment for a while before I roll it? If so, why?

Offline Yeller

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2014, 10:24:13 AM »
Ryan my guess would be that they do bulk ferment prior to sheeting to promote consistency after all they have multiple stores across a region.

My second guess would be the skins are not frozen longer than 5 days including FOB. Once sheeted and frozen for 24 hrs they probably hit the loading docks and down the road.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2014, 06:10:09 PM »
I have some dough bulk fermenting right now. I'll have more to say about it after I make a trip to Kroger (where I won't be buying any Donatos take & bake).

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2014, 01:51:33 PM »
The dough I made yesterday:

100% Superlative flour (12.6% protein, bromated)
35% Water
0.5% IDY
1.5% Salt
3.8% Oil
1.5% Nonfat dry milk
8.2% Egg
1% Sugar

I started with my existing Donatos clone formula, but I increased the salt a little because I'm beginning to think salt should be at least 1.5% with almost every kind of dough. I also dropped the egg percentage a little because one egg (without shell) weighed 46 grams and I wanted to make 30 oz of dough, ideally with 10.8% egg. To keep the formula at 10.8% egg, though, it would have required about 1/3 of another egg, so I just changed the formula a little to make one egg work. Also, I included nonfat dry milk this time, which I didn't do previously.

I mixed for 10 minutes, bulk fermented for about three hours, then divided the dough into one 19.5 oz dough ball and another dough ball containing the remaining 10.5 oz or so. I believe I then allowed the large dough ball warm up (and relax) a little in the slightly warm oven.

After letting the dough rest and warm a little, I rolled one 14" skin, trimmed and docked it, then put it in the freezer. Since I haven't done this in a while, I screwed up in a few minor ways. First of all, I forgot to throw some cornmeal on my work surface shortly before I was done rolling the skin, so there is no cornmeal on the bottom of this skin. Second, I trimmed the skin to about 13.7 oz, although I meant to stop trimming when it was around 14.62 oz (TF=0.095). Also, I trimmed it to 15", since I knew the skin would shrink a little (which it did). I docked and put the skin in the freezer on a 17" pizza serving tray, uncovered.

I was beat after rolling the first skin, so I added the dough scraps to the remaining dough ball, re-rounded the dough ball, then put the dough ball in the fridge and watched hockey for the rest of the night.

Late this morning I put the remaining dough ball in the slightly warm oven for an hour or two, then rolled. With the scrap dough added to the original dough ball, this dough weighed around 16 oz. So I knew I had enough dough for another 14" skin, but I wasn't sure if I'd be able roll it round enough to get another 14" skin out of the dough. Turns out I didn't have a problem getting another 14" skin out of that amount of dough, even though I trimmed it to about 14.6 oz. I also remembered to sprinkle some cornmeal on my work surface this time, when the dough was still about 12".

With this one, I trimmed the skin to 14" then rolled it to about 14.5" after trimming, to allow for shrinkage.

Since I decreased the egg by a few percent but didn't add any other liquid, I was worried the dough would end up a little too stiff. It is a little stiffer than I remember my previous batch, but I think everything worked out all right. This stiffer dough may actually be more like Donatos dough than my previous dough, but I think both doughs have been very close to the same stiffness as Donatos dough.

I don't know when I'm going to use this dough. I'd like to use it pretty soon, but I'm in no hurry. I needed to take a break from pizza to get focused on other things that are more important than pizza for at least a couple weeks.

Whenever I do use this dough, I'm not going to bake on a pan. Donatos bakes on dark perforated coupe pans, but when I baked on a similar pan the top finished way before the bottom. I think it's because Donatos bakes in conveyors and I can't simulate conveyor conditions in a regular home oven. Besides, I don't like conveyors or baking on pans (unless the pan is necessary for forming the dough properly, like with deep dish).

I'll probably bake at least one of these in my Mighty Pizza Oven.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2014, 02:01:27 PM »
Another change I made with this batch is that I used 0.5% IDY instead of 0.5% ADY. I'd say my water was around 90-100 degrees. (I didn't measure water temperature, but it felt warm.)

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2014, 05:02:45 PM »
I just made pizzas out of the two skins I had in the freezer. Since I made them for a friend, to go, I didn't get to experience them how I normally do, but I did take one piece of each pizza. Although I was very worried that these pizzas might end up totally crappy, I'm happy with how they turned out. They tasted very much like Donatos, but there's some work to do. I'll start a new thread in the American style section whenever I make some more of this style of pizza.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2014, 06:04:57 PM »
I think the dough was probably a little overfermented, judging by the pale bottoms, as well as a slight toughness of the crust. Still good pizza, though. And the sauce was surprisingly good, too.

Sauce
6 oz Kroger tomato paste
11 oz Water
1/4 tsp Basil
1/4 tsp Salt
1/2 tsp Sugar

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2014, 11:41:35 AM »
I'm not ready to start a new Donatos thread quite yet, so here's a little information about the dough I made yesterday. It's very similar to my previous dough, but slightly different, with considerably different dough management.

100% Superlative flour
35% Water
0.5% IDY
1.5% Salt
4% Oil
1.5% Dry milk
11% Egg
1% Sugar

Note that I increased the egg to 11% and I rounded the oil up to 4%.

With this batch I used water that was as hot as my tap will give me. I believe I mixed for 6 or 7 minutes, with a spiral dough hook. (It didn't take as long as the previous batch because it was a much bigger batch, or a more suitable batch size for my mixer.) I then covered the mixer bowl and placed the bowl in a slightly warm oven for 10 minutes, just to give the dough a chance to relax (not to bulk ferment). I removed the dough from the oven and divided, scaled, and rounded.

I've figured out a pretty good system for scaling the dough so I don't end up with a bunch of scrap dough or frayed crust edges. This is for doing it specifically at home. If I was doing it in a pizzeria or commissary (with a sheeter), I would do it much differently. Here's what I do: I scale each dough ball to the weight required to make a skin that's 1" larger than the skin I intend to make. So for a 14" skin (which ultimately will weigh 14.62 oz), I start with a 16.79 oz dough ball (which would be the target weight for a 15" skin at TF=0.095). That gives me a little wiggle room, in case I don't roll the skin perfectly round. After scaling the dough balls, I round each dough ball as much as possible, then place the dough balls back in the oven, covered, for at least 10 minutes before I begin rolling the first skin.

Instead of trimming the skins an inch larger than my target size (as I did before), this time I trimmed them to the target size and weight, then rolled them maybe half an inch larger, to account for shrinkage. These skins don't shrink much. After trimming and rolling a little larger than my target size, I allowed each skin to sit and relax for 5 or 10 minutes, with the skin slightly stuck to the work surface so it wouldn't shrink. After this rest period, I docked then placed the skin in the freezer on a flat pan. (If you can see it clearly, take note of the docking pattern in the pic below. If it's not clear enough to see, someone let me know so I can post a cropped and zoomed version of the same picture.)

I think I'm going to try at least one of these skins after a 24-hour thaw/ferment in the fridge + a few hours at room temperature. I also plan to use at least one skin after a 48-hour thaw/ferment in the fridge + a few hours at room temperature.

I did not roll any of these skins over cornmeal. Instead, I'm just going to sprinkle cornmeal on my serving tray before I place each frozen skin on the tray (before refrigerating). (I don't think cornmeal has any place on or in pizza, but I'm trying to clone a pizza that I know contains cornmeal on the bottom of the crust, so that's why I'm using cornmeal.)

I succeeded at trimming each of these skins to within about 10 grams of my target weight. (Yeah, I know it's confusing that I sometimes express weights in ounces and sometimes express weights in grams. I'm trying to switch over to grams, but it's easier for me to think in ounces.)

I'll probably make more changes next time I do this, partly because of what I've learned from this batch. For example, since it takes more than a few minutes to roll and trim each skin, each subsequent dough ball was a little more fermented than the previous dough ball. By the time I took the last dough ball out of the oven, it was a lot softer and airier than the first three, thus it was easier to roll. So obviously that means each of these crusts should end up with slightly different characteristics than every other crust. Or maybe not. If not, then I'll probably end up allowing the dough to warm up a little more with subsequent batches (before rolling).

Although I think this dough is about the proper stiffness, I feel like I could probably get by with using a slightly softer dough. I'll find out eventually.

Pic 1: Four skins. Two of them are 14" and two of them are 10". They've been in the freezer since I finished rolling them last evening. I don't know if you can see the docking pattern, but they are all docked, with one pass of the docker at each spot, just like actual Donatos skins.

Pic 2: One of the skins sideways, to show thickness. Fingers for scale, I guess. TF=0.095 oz of dough per square inch.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2014, 11:04:37 AM »
I just measured my skins from the latest batch of dough. It looks like they did shrink about half an inch sometime between when I trimmed them and now. So I guess I'll go ahead and trim future skins a full inch larger than my target diameter, assuming the skins will shrink at least half an inch after I trim them.

Last night I took one of the 10" skins out of the freezer, sprayed the top of the skin with nonstick spray, sprinkled a liberal amount of cornmeal onto a 12" cutter pan, placed the skin on the pan, covered with plastic wrap, and transferred the skin to the fridge. I took the skin and pan out of the fridge about an hour ago and placed it on a counter, which is where I'll leave it for a total of at least three hours before topping and baking for lunch. (I've done a good job of eating right lately, so I'm gonna give myself a nice treat for lunch today.)

I'm gonna take the other 10" skin out of the freezer today, prep it, leave it in the fridge for about 48 hours, and turn it into lunch or dinner in a couple days. That way I'll get a good idea of how this dough performs after one day in the fridge, as well as how the same dough performs after two days in the fridge.

I had intended to bake the next pizza in my MPO, but I'm reconsidering because baking it that way would create two large variables between today's pizza and the next pizza. I think the MPO will do a better job than my oven, but it's probably best to just be patient for now and put off using the MPO until I bake one or both of the 14" skins.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2014, 03:06:29 PM »
Today's 10" pizza (or 9.5" pizza).

Weight before baking: 516 grams. (216 g skin, 114 g sauce, 110 g cheese, 68 g pepperoni. I know the math doesn't add up, but that's the correct measurements. The problem could be because my scale is only accurate to within 2 grams. Also, I weighed the sauce in ounces, then converted the measurement to grams.)
Weight after baking: 488 grams.
Bake time: About 8 minutes at 500 degrees, directly on stone.

This one was more like Donatos in some ways and less like Donatos in other ways. Overall it was more like Donatos than my previous two pizzas. Plus I learned a lot from this pizza, which should help me make appropriate changes with the next batch.

I baked this pizza nearly 4 hours after pulling the skin from fridge.

Good
Nice browning on bottom.
Wasn't overfermented.
Nice texture, with a minimal amount of crunch on the bottom.

Bad
Too thick.
Too bready (from thickness + too much yeast).
Sauce wasn't as good as last time, probably because I used half as much sugar.

This dough was a little too thick and/or had too much yeast. I think it was both. Still good, though.

I moved the stone down one position in the oven because the previous pizzas seemed a little too done on top. This one was not done enough on top, so I'll move the stone back to where it was if I do this style in the oven again.

Dough management worked out very well this time. I may not change anything (or much) about the dough management with the next batch.

Changes I'll make with next batch:

I will decrease the IDY to no more than 0.4% (from 0.5%).
I will roll the skins to TF=0.090 oz of dough per square inch (instead of 0.095).


 

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