Author Topic: Donatos Take & Bake  (Read 6431 times)

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Offline Yeller

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2014, 08:48:53 AM »
Having Fry's here in AZ is like shopping at Krogers in Columbus as far as brands they carry including the Kroger brand that we used to buy. Our deli has T/B pizza they make there but it wouldn't surprise me to see Jim Grote and his daughter distribute Donatos somehow.

The Grote Inc portion of Donatos Corp makes food assembly equipment. His focus is on C-Marts and Supermarkets to sell the equipment or supply the final product..sandwiches etc. as Grote would grow the Donatos pizza T/B would naturally follow the manufacturing and logistics. He made a killing when he sold Donatos to McDonalds and made even more when the begged him to take it back..


Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2014, 10:07:26 AM »
I looked on google, and from what I can tell, Donato's take and bakes are only available in the Columbus area.  Also FWIW, Dino's Gourmet Pizza in St. Paul, MN, used eggs in their dough. A formula based on the recipe obtained from the shop is given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15203.msg160388#msg160388  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2014, 12:06:07 PM »
Ryan,

It looks like you are right about the breadcrumbs being in the dough. This morning, I called Donatos at 614-416-7700 and was directed to a customer service rep to whom I posed the question of where the breadcrumbs are used with their take-and-bake pizzas and why. The gal I spoke with did not have the answer directly at hand but said that she thought that the breadcrumbs were mixed in with the dough. When I said that struck me as unusual based on what I had read about how breadcrumbs are typically used with pizzas (sprinkled on top or on the bottom), she put me on hold while she made a quick call to someone else at Donatos. The answer she came back with was that the breadcrumbs are mixed in with the dough and its purpose is to make the crust more crispy. When I asked her if the regular Donatos pizzas have breadcrumbs in the dough, she referred to an ingredients list for their regular dough (which apparently now can be found at their website) and said there are no breadcrumbs in that dough. The breadcrumbs apparently are used only in the Donatos take and bake pizzas and in their Fresh Bake pizzas, which are apparently baked on site in certain stores. She said those pizzas are often eaten by college kids.

We also talked about the eggs and milk matter but she did not know why Donatos stopped promoting those ingredients in its advertising. I also mentioned to her that I thought that it was unusual that there was no secondary chemical leavening system in the dough (besides the yeast) to allow the pizza to survive abuse by customers who might leave the pizza in the hot trunk of their car too long or overferment the pizza by leaving it on a kitchen counter too long, or deciding at the last minute to freeze the pizza. At least with the chemical leavening system, which kicks in at oven temperatures, the exhaustion of the yeast would not be fatal. She said the the pizza is supposed to be used the same day or, alternatively, frozen and used up to a week later. Based on her own experience, she also recommended that a pan or baking sheet of some sort be used to bake the pizza even though the instructions say to put the pizza bare on an oven rack. She noted that the cornmeal is on the bottom of the pizza but fairly firm in place but might become dislodged.

Finally, she said that for those who may not have access to Kroger's or other stores that carry the take-and-bake pizzas they can order the take-and-bake pizzas from the Donatos website at http://www.donatospizzaparcel.com/, or from Amazon. The pizzas are shipped refrigerated, not frozen, with ice packs.

Peter


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2014, 03:22:29 PM »
I also mentioned to her that I thought that it was unusual that there was no secondary chemical leavening system in the dough (besides the yeast) to allow the pizza to survive abuse by customers who might leave the pizza in the hot trunk of their car too long or overferment the pizza by leaving it on a kitchen counter too long, or deciding at the last minute to freeze the pizza. At least with the chemical leavening system, which kicks in at oven temperatures, the exhaustion of the yeast would not be fatal. She said the the pizza is supposed to be used the same day or, alternatively, frozen and used up to a week later.

I'm glad you brought that up, Peter. That's one of the things that made me suspect Donatos take and bake dough might be essentially identical to their normal dough. I guess I forgot to mention it, though. Also, it blows my mind how you figure out who to talk to about these kinds of things, and how to get useful information out of them. You should be some kind of con artist.

CDN, Bob said he has seen this product at Kroger in North Carolina.

Yeller, I wouldn't be surprised if Fry's carries this product, too, considering 1) Fry's is owned by Kroger, and 2) There are surely a lot of transplanted Buckeyes down there, like yourself.

Za Man, there are some things I've been wanting to ask you, but I've been pretty busy. So don't disappear, eh.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2014, 04:15:42 PM »
Also, it blows my mind how you figure out who to talk to about these kinds of things, and how to get useful information out of them. You should be some kind of con artist.
Ryan,

All I did was to call the telephone number I found at the Donatos website, and when the first lady answered the phone I told her that I wanted to speak to someone who could answer a few questions about their take-and-bake pizzas. I was referred to the customer service rep who ended up answering my questions. I told her my name was Peter and that I lived in Texas and, hence, did not have access to their take-and-bake pizzas but that a friend in Ohio asked me about their take-and-bake pizzas because I had a pretty good understanding of how pizzas are made. That allowed me to ask both innocent and semi-technical questions. Fortunately, the rep was a very nice woman with a cheery manner who wanted to help me with my questions. That doesn't always happen. But, in general, the more you know about a subject, the more you can navigate the discussion.

BTW, while I was out shopping today I stopped at a Kroger and a Safeway affiliate and took a look at their house brand take-and-bake pizzas. The labels for those pizzas both showed breadcrumbs in the ingredients lists. So, it appears that there is a fairly strong connection between breadcrumbs and take-and-bake pizzas. One of the labels showed less than 2% breadcrumbs; the other listed the breadcrumbs in the same way as Donatos. So, there are more breadcrumbs by weight in the Donatos take-and-bake pizzas than eggs.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2014, 04:26:26 PM »
Isn't it sort of a conundrum.....bread crumbs to make it crispy....eggs to make it tender. Or do you think they are using the egg for browning without having to add sugar that might upset the yeast balance?

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2014, 10:52:48 AM »
Isn't it sort of a conundrum.....bread crumbs to make it crispy....eggs to make it tender. Or do you think they are using the egg for browning without having to add sugar that might upset the yeast balance?

Bob
Bob,

I think the eggs and milk used in the Donatos dough, including the dough used to make the Donatos take-and-bake dough, is just part of a long tradition at Donatos, and even though they no longer tout the nutritional benefits of eggs and milk, there is perhaps a reluctance to change the dough formulation and take out either the eggs or milk. Also, that might be too dramatic a change that might not go over well with customers who have become accustomed to and attached to Donatos pizzas.

The fresh eggs will provide some crust coloration but there are far easier and cheaper ways to do that. Also, the lactose in dry milk powder will itself provides some crust coloration. There is lecithin in the eggs that acts as an emulsifier to bind fat/oil and water but there is little fat in the eggs themselves and it does not appear from the positioning of the soybean oil in the Donatos ingredients list that they are using much soybean oil, and that oil may be topically applied to the skin and not used in making the dough itself. Eggs can also yield a more tender crumb but I am guessing that Donatos is not using enough eggs to have a pronounced effect on crust tenderness. That would also mean that you are unlikely to detect the taste of the eggs in the finished crust. Also, the maltodextrin has binding effects so you may not need much egg to help with emulsification of water and fats/oil. Unfortunately, there is no easy way of determining how much egg is actually used in the Donatos dough. Usually, the amount of cholesterol in the eggs might be a way of determining how much egg is used but there is also cholesterol in the cheeses and in the pepperoni slices. It would be easier to analyze a plain cheese Donatos take-and-bake pizza simply because it is a more basic pizza.

As somewhat an aside, there is also some oil in the encapsulated salt. The reason why encapsulated salt is used is to keep it from affecting other ingredients in the dough during the life cycle of the dough, notably, the yeast. Oils and maybe other agents are used to encapsulate the salt but it is only when the pizza is in the oven that the encapsulating agents break down and release the salt to do its thing. This can mean using smaller amounts of yeast than would be required if regular salt were to be used. If that is the case with the Donatos dough, that could mean that there is even less soybean oil than we might think or estimate.

Peter


Offline thezaman

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2014, 11:27:14 AM »
i often wondered if it isn't better to think about the product post large chain growth. how did mr, grote make his pizza when it was a few stores. i'm sure it was eggs, nfd milk,oil ,salt, yeast. a lot if cornmeal in the crust bottom when stretching the dough post pan.  i think the sauce has been figured out. the ground basil is important in the flavor profile of the sauce.as is the provolone and pizza shake. does donatos dough have a yellow tint to it that would be caused by the egg. sorry, just thinking out loud.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2014, 12:04:21 PM »
Larry,

Maybe you already know this but there is an entire thread that was devoted to trying to reverse engineer and clone the original Donatos dough for its thin crust pizza, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2711.msg23368#msg23368, including the ingredients that were used at the time, at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2711.msg27747#msg27747. The last time I saw a Donatos ingredients list for its thin crust dough was in January of 2008 and that list was the same as the one given in Reply 12 referenced above.

The pizza sauce for the thin crust pizza as of January, 2008 was as follows: Tomato paste, water, sugar, salt, citric acid, xanthan gum, aquaresin paprika, basil, ground basil.. That is a bit different than what is now being used for the take-and-bake pizzas. The sauce for the take-and-bake pizzas appears to be thinner than the original sauce referenced above and with a somewhat different seasoning, and no fresh basil.

As for the eggs, I believe that the original dough formulation as mentioned above had more eggs than what they are now using for the take-and-bake dough. That would lead me to believe that there may not be an overly discernible yellow coloration to the dough. However, I have not seen a real Donatos take-and-bake dough to be able to comment on that aspect. Ryan may know the answer.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 12:15:08 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline thezaman

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2014, 12:36:10 PM »
all of these additions of xanthan gum, citric acid,and paprika were probably not present in the original formula so are needed to clone the pizza. the xanthan gum allows them to use more water and reduce the cost of producing the product. does Ryan want to clone a take and bake or is he using the ingredient list to figure our the pizzerias formula?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2014, 12:43:27 PM »
After my last post, I did some Googling and found this item relating to the chairman of the board at Donatos: http://www.mvnu.edu/cwlc/Jane%20Grote%20Abell%20Bio.pdf. From that piece, I noted the Jane's Dough Foods reference which, in turn, led me to this article: http://www.janesdoughfoods.com/content/documents/article3-1.pdf. Possibly Jane's Dough is the supplier of doughs to Donatos and pizzas to the take-and-bake side of the business. Note also the Kroger connection.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2014, 01:47:08 PM »
Larry,

I went to the Wayback Machine and did some searching for old Donatos promotional material and found this example going back to December of 1998 that discussed the founding of the company and its use of eggs and milk in the dough:

http://web.archive.org/web/20000608192856/http://www.donatos.com/home.htm (click on History and Our Pizza)

Peter

 

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2014, 01:57:47 PM »
As for the eggs, I believe that the original dough formulation as mentioned above had more eggs than what they are now using for the take-and-bake dough. That would lead me to believe that there may not be an overly discernible yellow coloration to the dough. However, I have not seen a real Donatos take-and-bake dough to be able to comment on that aspect. Ryan may know the answer.
I didn't really pay attention to the color of the take and bake dough, but from having seen many thousands of Donatos dough skins, I picture Donatos dough as reasonably eggy/yellow-orange-colored. I don't know if you can see that color in my dough at Reply #178 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2711.msg139661#msg139661), but my dough had a lot of egg in it. (One thing I'm not really sure about is if regular Donatos dough really is an eggy yellow color or if it's just that color in my mind.)

all of these additions of xanthan gum, citric acid,and paprika were probably not present in the original formula so are needed to clone the pizza. the xanthan gum allows them to use more water and reduce the cost of producing the product. does Ryan want to clone a take and bake or is he using the ingredient list to figure our the pizzerias formula?
As you've probably seen by now, I did try to clone Donatos once/twice, and I came very close. I started by using the information provided all through that thread as a foundation for my dough formula (because there is a lot of very good information throughout that thread), and I continued by making some changes I knew were appropriate based on my experience working at Donatos (as a driver who spent quite a bit of time helping out in the kitchen). The only major change I remember making is that I decreased the hydration considerably, which I think I estimated very accurately. (Donatos dough is pretty stiff.) Well, and I omitted nonfat dry milk and dried dairy whey.

I've learned a lot of tricks since my Donatos clone attempt, which I know could help me do a little better if I try it again, and I've reflected on some things that maybe weren't real clear in my memory during my clone attempt. For example, I should have let the skin ferment longer at room temperature before baking. Also, my skin shrunk to about 13" or 13.5" after I trimmed it (to 14"). So now I'd probably trim it so I end up with about a 15" skin that weighs 14.5 oz, then try to figure out a way to make it shrink to 14" after trimming (which should be easy, because I've now done something similar many times with my Tommy's clones).

Looking at the old Donatos thread, I see that I omitted dried dairy whey, as well as nonfat dry milk. I now have nonfat dry milk, but I have no idea where to find dried dairy whey. Anyone have a clue where to get that?

One thing I remember about my two attempted Donatos clones is that I felt like it would have been much better to bake directly on stone, instead of on the dark perforated pan. (Donatos bakes on dark perforated pans in conveyor ovens.) It may have just been my oven. All I know is that the top of the pizza finished way before the bottom, and anyone familiar with Donatos should be able to see that my pizzas were too done on top.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2014, 02:24:35 PM »
Looking at the old Donatos thread, I see that I omitted dried dairy whey, as well as nonfat dry milk. I now have nonfat dry milk, but I have no idea where to find dried dairy whey. Anyone have a clue where to get that?
Ryan,

Dried dairy whey can be found in many places. Here are a couple:

http://www.bobsredmill.com/sweet-dairy-whey-mtx1293.html

http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/milk/whey_sweet.html

Peter

Offline thezaman

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2014, 05:17:09 PM »
 i do not use this product bit pz44 is a whey of some type. it is supposed to relax the dough and reduce shrinking. wounder if that is how the way is used?
 also, is cassano's dough close to donato's, it is available thru sysco foods
 

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2014, 06:02:20 PM »
Cassano's crust is not really like Donatos. Cassano's is extremely thin and is more of a cracker crust. I don't think Cassano's crust is laminated. I don't know if Cassano's uses the same dough that they make available through distributors. Since most of my extended family lives around Dayton, I've had Cassano's many times. (They had at least a couple stores in Columbus when I was a kid, too.) However, I know essentially nothing about their pizza. (I haven't had Cassano's since about July 2010, so my memory is a bit hazy.) My grandpa turns 90 next month, so I'll probably head Dayton-ways for that. Maybe I'll pick up a Cassano's pizza while I'm over there.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2014, 06:13:04 PM »
i do not use this product bit pz44 is a whey of some type. it is supposed to relax the dough and reduce shrinking. wounder if that is how the way is used?
 also, is cassano's dough close to donato's, it is available thru sysco foods
 
I think Tom once said PZ44 can have an over oxidizing effect. I know that Peter doesn't recommend it cause in a home dough setting; whats the hurry.

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2014, 06:24:35 PM »
i do not use this product bit pz44 is a whey of some type. it is supposed to relax the dough and reduce shrinking. wounder if that is how the way is used?
 also, is cassano's dough close to donato's, it is available thru sysco foods
 

Larry,

As you can see from http://web.archive.org/web/20111124052707/http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Specifications/TDS_PZ44_450.pdf, PZ-44 comprises L-cysteine and whey. However, I would be surprised if Donatos is using that product since I believe that they would be required to specify the L-cysteine under FDA rules and regulations (http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=172.320 ).

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2014, 06:36:02 PM »
I know that Peter doesn't recommend it cause in a home dough setting; whats the hurry.

Bob

Bob,

PZ-44 is a commercial product that professionals sometimes use to tame a "bucky" (overly elastic) dough. Most often it is a dough with a lot of gluten, such as a dough based on a high gluten flour. PZ-44 is also sometimes used in doughs that are to be formed into skins using hot or cold presses. Most nonprofessionals don't have access to PZ-44 but I wouldn't have a problem if a home pizza maker used it since L-cysteine is a safe product to use. However, home pizza makers usually don't need to use PZ-44 if they make and ferment their dough properly.

Peter

Offline thezaman

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2014, 08:17:35 PM »
 ryan the pizza choice in dayton is marrion's. they were the independent of the year in 2013. similar thin crust only had it once. i use to kill a large casano's every time i visited columbus. i think donato's drove then out of town.

Offline thezaman

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2014, 08:11:46 PM »
today i made a attempt at a donatos pizza.i used ryan's dough and sauce. i added a little milk to the mix 27 grams. the flour was 500 grams of gm harvest king. at that weight 1 egg was the exact percentage 53 grams that ryan used. i bulk rose it all day then balled it at 9 ounces. my pans were only 11 inches so the conversion worked out to 9 ounces.i used a cheater pan that had a little lip and i stretched the dough even with the lip. i put Crisco in the pan sprinkled corn meal rolled the dough to fit and dropped it in. sauce was rolled on grande 50/50 prov mozz was spread down then a 75/ 25 romano to oregano. i baked it at about 500 degrees. it was close in taste and texture, i think.it has been a long time since i had their pizza. i will have to try one this week for reference.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2014, 01:05:14 PM »
It's hard to say for sure, but that looks pretty Donatos-like to me. I think the profile shot is the best one.

I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but I know my Donatos clone dough management is not quite right. When I tried doing Donatos, I didn't leave my skin at room temperature for long enough before baking, so my attempted clone came out a little too dense. Also, I think I may have changed the egg percentage a little from the formula earlier in the other Donatos thread (which I used as a model for my formula). Specifically, I changed some things to make it so one egg fit the formula's egg percentage.

One thing I've been wondering about lately: Is at least one Marion's unit located in a building that used to be a Shakey's? I read a bunch of Marion's reviews a while back, and it said that you have order drinks at a different place than where you order your food. This immediately evoked imagery of Shakey's. And I think Shakey's used to exist in Ohio about 40 years ago.

Oh yeah, and Donatos sauce has a noticeably sugary taste nowadays. (I say this because I didn't indicate to use sugar in the sauce.)
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline thezaman

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2014, 06:19:15 PM »
 Ryan, i do not think that marrions is a shakeys knockoff. unless the owner had work at a shakeys and based his recipe on their pizza. they started in 1965, and were one of the first sit down pizzerias in dayton. their style is called dayton style. i know in 2013 they were the number one independent in  pizza today magazine. 10 million in sales for only 7 stores,pretty impressive
 on my donato's attempt i forgot to dock the dough.  today i picked up some ground basil, i do not remember seeing any basil in the sauce but you could taste it. is my memory playing tricks or do you remember the same? i also tried to make a pepperoni donato's.cannot compare it to there's  i only eat the plain cheese didn't look to hot but here it is.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2014, 10:18:14 PM »
I just meant to indicate that the building description sounded like it may be similar to a Shakey's building, not that I think Marion's pizza grew out of Shakey's pizza.

There is definitely a Dayton style of pizza, as I've heard Marion's is the same style as Cassano's. There's an independent place in Germantown (where my dad is from) that resembles Cassano's in a lot of ways, too. Very thin, crispy, bright/simple sauce, party cut (of course).

There is basil in Donatos sauce, but maybe just barely enough to taste. Just basil, some salt, and a noticeable amount of sugar, I'd say. Having taken Donatos sauce home from work in glass jars, I can confirm that there's not much to see in the sauce. Since they don't make sauce in-store, I can't really tell you much else. Someone likened their sauce to tomato soup. I think that's a good comparison. I think if you used Campbell's tomato soup diluted just right, it would probably work very well.

I have no idea what pepperoni Donatos uses, but I think Patrick Cudahy Pavone is very similar to what they use. I think that's what Walter uses. (You just went to his classroom this weekend, didn't you? D'OH!)

Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline thezaman

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Re: Donatos Take & Bake
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2014, 12:02:50 AM »
 ryan, due to the weather we did not go.


 

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