Author Topic: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker  (Read 8304 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« on: February 25, 2014, 12:10:36 AM »
I wanted to put all the pieces together in one spot....put all the tricks in one effort to create good eats.  This will be an effort to create a fantastic laminated cracker crust using a 40% hydrated dough....it can be done!
For this exercise I use as my recipe (I made a 16 ounce dough)
flour (All Trumps)                100%
hot water                             40%
salt                                         2.5%
oil                                           4.0%
sugar                                      2.0%
non fat dry milk                       1.25%
IDY                                            .75%

Put all the dry ingredients in the Kitchen Aid bowl.  Mix.  Add water and oil.  Using the paddle attachment, mix until the dough comes together (because there is so little water, this will take some time).  Don't develop the dough in the bowl.  Smoosh the dough together, and place in an oiled plastic bag and place in a barely warm oven.  At the 15 minute mark, take the dough out of the oven and do a stretch and fold (the dough is very crumbly, reshape it, flatten it , and put it in the bag and back into the oven.  At the 30 minute mark, take the dough back out of the oven and do another stretch and fold (you will notice a big change in the dough at this point).  Reshape it, flatten it, and place back in the bag and back into the oven.  At the 60 minute mark take the dough out of the oven and go to your bread board.  The dough should be very nice to work with.  Roll out the dough into as thin a sheet as you can.

Back in 2009, I did an experiment regarding laminations and found that 6 layers  is about perfect if using a lightly mixed dough.  Here is my experiment.   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6604.msg69047#msg69047

Fold the dough into sixths and roll out.  Take your time.  Let the dough rest if it needs to.  When the dough gets about one quarter to three eights inch thick, divide the dough sheet into desired shapes.  Further thin down these skins until desired thickness is reached.  Put finished skins in freezer for 1 hour, and then into the fridge overnight.

I would not recommend trying a 40% hydrated dough....I am only illustrating that the stretch and fold really works even in extreme conditions.  I even used it on a 36% dough last week, unfortunately, I couldn't get the sheet rolled to create anything worth sharing.  We know the RT clone makes excellent pizza (48%), and I've done 45% dough many times....it's the "process" that is important.

The following pictures show the dough right before sheeting and pizzas that I baked after the skins sat in the fridge for 24 hours.  By the way, excellent skins!!!!!  These are as crisp and as tender as I've ever made, and were very exciting to me!

John




« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 12:14:29 AM by fazzari »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 02:11:18 PM »
John,

Very nice job as usual.

When you say to use hot water, is there a particular water temperature you use?

Peter

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2014, 06:03:40 PM »

When you say to use hot water, is there a particular water temperature you use?

Peter
I just use as hot as my tap will give me Peter, since the dough will be going into a warm oven anyway.
John

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2014, 06:30:50 PM »
Looks like damn good pizza John.  :chef:
I've been waiting for something like this...open up the hood and throw all the tricks at her. Just this morning I was sitting, thinking about how I could make a dough using all the Fazzari techniques and bake it on a 620ish BS.

Thanks John!  :chef:

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2014, 02:07:13 AM »
Looks like damn good pizza John.  :chef:
I've been waiting for something like this...open up the hood and throw all the tricks at her. Just this morning I was sitting, thinking about how I could make a dough using all the Fazzari techniques and bake it on a 620ish B
Bob
If you "do" try this, please go for something like an RT clone (48%)...very doable!!!!

John

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2014, 11:44:37 AM »
Bob
If you "do" try this, please go for something like an RT clone (48%)...very doable!!!!

John
Will do! I have a 4 day old stretch an fold 65%'er going right now and it looks good. But I look forward to trying a 48% with "all the tricks".  ;)

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2014, 03:43:49 PM »
Hey John,

I'm curious what purpose the nonfat dry milk serves for your dough. I have a pretty good idea, I think, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

I've been intending for a long time to try adding nonfat dry milk to my Tommy's dough, as well as non-diastatic malt powder or syrup (which should arrive in the mail tomorrow or the next day), in addition to the standard flour, water, yeast, salt, sugar, and fat.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2014, 04:18:40 PM »
Here's the pie I made with the tricks I mentioned above.
She ain't exactly pretty but she sure tastes sweet.  >:D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2014, 01:25:51 PM »
I've decided I'm gonna try making some of this dough; maybe today. You're using unbromated All Trumps, right? It just so happens that I have about 9 lbs of that stuff, which I figured I was probably never going to use. Might as well use it for this.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2014, 01:46:06 PM »
Man Bob, was that cooked with a blowtorch or did you start drinking before the pizza was done?

Offline dmckean44

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 01:51:16 PM »
Man Bob, was that cooked with a blowtorch or did you start drinking before the pizza was done?

I'm guessing it was on the Blackstone, which practically is a blowtorch.  ;D

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 04:27:56 PM »
Man Bob, was that cooked with a blowtorch or did you start drinking before the pizza was done?
Ha! That was my BS using the "New Haven" switch....it goes to 11.  >:D

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 05:08:12 PM »
Hey John,

I'm curious what purpose the nonfat dry milk serves for your dough. I have a pretty good idea, I think, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

I've been intending for a long time to try adding nonfat dry milk to my Tommy's dough, as well as non-diastatic malt powder or syrup (which should arrive in the mail tomorrow or the next day), in addition to the standard flour, water, yeast, salt, sugar, and fat.
Ryan
For this recipe all I did was lower the hydration on Peter's Round Table clone...since it had the nonfat dry milk, I kept it in.  The pizza was soooo good I am experimenting with it at work.....so I would keep it in.  As for the malt...maybe you should forget the sugar if you do this..or you could have quick browning issue.

A couple points...make sure you use the skin right out of the fridge, don't let it warm up.  The skins themselves will tell you at what temperature they want to be baked....so make a few so you can test your temp.  Of course, on the perfect skin baked at the perfect temp, the top and bottom will be done at the same time.  Hope it works for you!
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2014, 06:31:32 PM »
Here's the pie I made with the tricks I mentioned above.
She ain't exactly pretty but she sure tastes sweet.  >:D
Bob
Did you have any problems rolling that out???

John

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2014, 08:42:19 PM »
This is not working for me. I have rolled 34 oz of this dough into a sheet of about 2' x 4'. This dough is still not very thin, but I can't roll it any thinner, partly because I can't even reach the end of it. I can barely even stand up right now.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2014, 08:47:41 PM »
I ended up cutting the sheet in half and rolling each half a little bigger, then I folded each piece into four layers. Right now I'm resting. I will roll each of the two pieces much thinner once I get some energy back. I used the formula from the original post, with unbromated All Trumps.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline dogboy

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2014, 08:53:15 PM »
Following this thread!!


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2014, 09:06:01 PM »
Bob
Did you have any problems rolling that out???

John
I rolled it warm and had to let er rest a couple times...not bad though.
Ryan, on the other hand.....hates rolling dough. Maybe we should all do a Scott appreciation dealio for him and buy the man a sheeter!    ;D

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2014, 09:21:12 PM »
I have one of the folded pieces proofing in the oven right now because I couldn't roll it even after giving it a good rest at room temperature. When I take it out, I'll unfold it and try to roll it much thinner before folding it again.

I noticed right after my two most recent posts that John only made 16 oz of dough. Big difference from my 34 oz. Had I noticed that earlier, it may have helped me some. But I think this much is true: You can't make very big laminated skins like this (with dough this stiff) unless you have a sheeter (or a whole bunch of roids).
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2014, 10:31:42 PM »
OK, I've managed to roll one of them thin enough to get an 11" trimmed skin that weighs 10.9 oz. That's about TF=0.115. Hopefully I can get the second one a little thinner.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2014, 10:33:01 PM »
(or a whole bunch of roids).
??? euw.   I'll bet ole Scotty could roll 'er out lickity split.  :chef:

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2014, 10:46:43 PM »
10.6 oz for the second skin. Both skins are in the freezer for now. Will transfer to the fridge in a bit. Hopefully I can get someone to come over tomorrow to help me test one or both of them.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2014, 11:31:25 PM »
This is not working for me. I have rolled 34 oz of this dough into a sheet of about 2' x 4'. This dough is still not very thin, but I can't roll it any thinner, partly because I can't even reach the end of it. I can barely even stand up right now.
Ryan
One of the breakthrough thoughts I had was that one has to use a small piece to sheet...I use 15 to 20 ounces.  My experiment is documented here.... http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29858.msg298780#msg298780.  The reason it works is because you can sheet your dough very, very thinly...giving you a manageable dough piece to sheet after folding.
                                                                     
As for the size of the finished product...no one says you have to divide your finished sheet if you don't want to..it all bakes the same.  You still have to time to make your skins thinner if you like, it should be much easier now that you have smaller skins to work with....but a .10 thickness factor works well.  Also, I would have recommended using at least a 45%hydration, it's the process that gets you the excellent textured skin, not the hydration.  I use lower hydrations because I'm enthralled with the mixing process of all things.  I hope you don't get discouraged!

John
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 11:33:12 PM by fazzari »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2014, 11:48:06 PM »
it's the process that gets you the excellent textured skin, not the hydration.        I hope you don't get discouraged!

John
+1

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2014, 12:19:39 AM »
John, I just wanted to follow your instructions as precisely as possible and do something that's very similar yet totally different than what some people might call my signature pizza (Tommy's clone). I did want to get these skins a little thinner, but I think they'll be fine. I actually baked a couple pieces of scrap dough already. Just trying what I've done tonight is a big step. I'll probably try again soon, but next time I'll know what difficulties to expect and how to better get around them.

One thing I'm worried about is that my fridge seems to be too cold, or at least colder than my dough is accustomed to. I just started making pizza in my new home a couple weeks ago, and it's like I'm in a different world. For example, my 48-hour NY style dough is all of a sudden a 96-hour dough. Part of it, I'm sure, is that my refrigerator has been colder than the fridge I used at my parents' house. But I don't think the temperature difference accounts for everything, and I've gradually been increasing the fridge temp. (It was 36, but it may be much closer to 40 by tomorrow.) I'm wondering if the city water (vs. well water) is playing some kind of role, too; maybe killing some of the yeast.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


 

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