Author Topic: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker  (Read 4317 times)

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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2014, 10:33:01 PM »
(or a whole bunch of roids).
??? euw.   I'll bet ole Scotty could roll 'er out lickity split.  :chef:

Bob
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2014, 10:46:43 PM »
10.6 oz for the second skin. Both skins are in the freezer for now. Will transfer to the fridge in a bit. Hopefully I can get someone to come over tomorrow to help me test one or both of them.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2014, 11:31:25 PM »
This is not working for me. I have rolled 34 oz of this dough into a sheet of about 2' x 4'. This dough is still not very thin, but I can't roll it any thinner, partly because I can't even reach the end of it. I can barely even stand up right now.
Ryan
One of the breakthrough thoughts I had was that one has to use a small piece to sheet...I use 15 to 20 ounces.  My experiment is documented here.... http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29858.msg298780#msg298780.  The reason it works is because you can sheet your dough very, very thinly...giving you a manageable dough piece to sheet after folding.
                                                                     
As for the size of the finished product...no one says you have to divide your finished sheet if you don't want to..it all bakes the same.  You still have to time to make your skins thinner if you like, it should be much easier now that you have smaller skins to work with....but a .10 thickness factor works well.  Also, I would have recommended using at least a 45%hydration, it's the process that gets you the excellent textured skin, not the hydration.  I use lower hydrations because I'm enthralled with the mixing process of all things.  I hope you don't get discouraged!

John
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 11:33:12 PM by fazzari »

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2014, 11:48:06 PM »
it's the process that gets you the excellent textured skin, not the hydration.        I hope you don't get discouraged!

John
+1

Bob
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2014, 12:19:39 AM »
John, I just wanted to follow your instructions as precisely as possible and do something that's very similar yet totally different than what some people might call my signature pizza (Tommy's clone). I did want to get these skins a little thinner, but I think they'll be fine. I actually baked a couple pieces of scrap dough already. Just trying what I've done tonight is a big step. I'll probably try again soon, but next time I'll know what difficulties to expect and how to better get around them.

One thing I'm worried about is that my fridge seems to be too cold, or at least colder than my dough is accustomed to. I just started making pizza in my new home a couple weeks ago, and it's like I'm in a different world. For example, my 48-hour NY style dough is all of a sudden a 96-hour dough. Part of it, I'm sure, is that my refrigerator has been colder than the fridge I used at my parents' house. But I don't think the temperature difference accounts for everything, and I've gradually been increasing the fridge temp. (It was 36, but it may be much closer to 40 by tomorrow.) I'm wondering if the city water (vs. well water) is playing some kind of role, too; maybe killing some of the yeast.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2014, 11:07:18 AM »
John, it just occurred to me that you may be at a much higher altitude than me. If so, that might explain some of the problems I had while preparing this dough. I think I'm gonna use one of my skins sometime today.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2014, 11:10:51 AM »
I just checked. Nope.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2014, 11:50:01 AM »
I just checked. Nope.
Your skins should be good to go 18 to 24 hours after refrigerating.  When you say you checked, what are you looking for?  You should see absolutely no rise in your skin...it should look exactly the way it did when you refrigerated it.  In fact, if it rises, you've got problems...that's why I quick cool them in the freezer before refrigerating.  Your cold refrigerator should be perfect for this skin.

John

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2014, 01:38:53 PM »
When you say you checked, what are you looking for?

To clarify what I meant when I said "I just checked":

I checked the internet to find out the elevation of your city. If I remember correctly, Wikipedia said you're about 800 feet above sea level. I believe I'm about 600 feet above sea level, so it appears that elevation disparity is not an issue.

I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread, but my fermentation time has been way off normal since I started making pizzas in my new home. Most of the pizzas I've made since I moved have been the following NY style formula:

100% All Trumps bromated
63% Water (30 g of warm water for yeast. The rest is cold tap water with one small-ish ice cube added.)
0.45% ADY
1.75% Salt
1.5% Oil

Divide, scale, and round right after mixing, then straight into the fridge until three hours before I intend to use the dough.

That's the same trusty formula and workflow I used for 48-hour dough at my parents' house, but it's more like a 96-hour dough here. I'm not exaggerating, either. And the dough feels stiffer than dough at my parents' house, too. I guess it's the water, but I haven't been able to rule out other factors yet.

Oven's heating up. Gonna try out one of these skins soon.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2014, 01:47:14 PM »
In response to the rest of your post, I'm totally on board with keeping the skin cold, then using it cold. Your dough management is very similar to my Tommy's dough management. It's just that my dough looks and feels stiffer than how your dough looks to me (which is consistent with the NY style issues I've had lately). Also, I don't expect to get the oven spring you appear to have gotten with your pizza in the original post. Hope I'm wrong.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2014, 02:08:09 PM »
This should help with very stiff dough in the future. I just got the big rolling pin yesterday. It's 15" wide and pretty heavy. The small one is a standard home-sized rolling pin. The bananas are for scale (although I think they actually made the pic less useful than it would be if I had left out the bananas).

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2014, 03:43:25 PM »
This pizza came out much better than I expected, considering some of the problems I've been having. I figured it was going to be hard as a rock, but it ended up slightly softer than a rock. :) I used straight 7/11 for sauce (because I didn't feel like thinking about how I should make a sauce specifically for this pizza).

This pizza seemed to hint that there should be some noticeable sweetness in the sauce, along with maybe a hint of crushed red pepper. I'm not sure what else I could do to a sauce, but I think something more dense and less chunky than 7/11 might be appropriate.

I baked on stone at 500 (calibrated +30) for a little over 8 minutes. Probably should have given it 9 minutes.

Definitely very Shakey's-like, which is what I expected.

I think I'll make another batch of this dough today, using the same percentages for everything except yeast. I'll probably increase the IDY by about 50% (only because yeast doesn't seem to do its job very well in my home).

Oh yeah, I topped the pizza with pepperoni, sausage, and green bell pepper to honor John, who always seems to use that topping combination. (I bought the pepper just for this pizza. This is probably the first time I've ever topped a pizza with bell pepper.)

Pic 1: The skin after 2 days of refrigeration in Press'n Seal wrap.
Pic 2: Pizza just out of the oven.
Pic 3: Trying to show lamination from slightly above the pizza.
Pic 4: Trying to show lamination from slightly above the pizza.
Pic 5: Upskirt.
Pic 6: Lamination.
Pic 7: Lamination.

Offline dmckean44

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2014, 03:59:17 PM »
Great job Ryan!

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2014, 03:59:35 PM »

This pizza seemed to hint that there should be some noticeable sweetness in the sauce, along with maybe a hint of crushed red pepper. I'm not sure what else I could do to a sauce, but I think something more dense and less chunky than 7/11 might be appropriate.



Definitely very Shakey's-like, which is what I expected.


Maybe extra heavy puree an a paint brush.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2014, 04:22:27 PM »
Maybe extra heavy puree an a paint brush.

Bob

In other words, steal every known Shakey's trick.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2014, 06:04:02 PM »
I just just made some more of this dough, but with a couple minor changes: 1) I increased the IDY to 1.1% (from 0.75%), and 2) I only made 20 oz of dough, instead of 34 oz.

One thing I seem to have learned from my first try is that it's good to keep the warm oven well above "Bread Proof" mode temperature (100 degrees). I estimate my oven is at about 130 degrees right now, as the dough is just finishing the second 15-minute proof period.

John, would you say the oven should be much warmer than 100 degrees? I think my biggest problem the first time is that I needed my dough to be warmer (and thus softer) than it was after I'd bulk-fermented it in a barely-warm oven of about 100-110 degrees.

I've been taking pictures of each step.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2014, 07:01:23 PM »
Here's another change I'm making this time:

After the 30-minute oven ferment, I rolled the dough as much as I could, into a rectangle about 10" x 16". (I'll show a picture later.) Since I can't roll the dough any larger right now, I put the dough on a pizza serving tray and into the warm oven again and set a timer for 15 minutes. I'll probably have to do this again at least one more time after I roll the dough some more.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2014, 07:30:25 PM »
I just just made some more of this dough, but with a couple minor changes: 1) I increased the IDY to 1.1% (from 0.75%), and 2) I only made 20 oz of dough, instead of 34 oz.

One thing I seem to have learned from my first try is that it's good to keep the warm oven well above "Bread Proof" mode temperature (100 degrees). I estimate my oven is at about 130 degrees right now, as the dough is just finishing the second 15-minute proof period.

John, would you say the oven should be much warmer than 100 degrees? I think my biggest problem the first time is that I needed my dough to be warmer (and thus softer) than it was after I'd bulk-fermented it in a barely-warm oven of about 100-110 degrees.

I've been taking pictures of each step.
My oven is right around 105...just warm..     I can get a nice 10 * 20 inch sheet the first roll pretty easily with a 16 ounce batch.  Just take your time Ryan,  do as little work on your dough as you can....let it rest between rollings....the rests let the dough loosen up for you.  Good luck
John

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2014, 09:11:10 PM »
I did take my time tonight, John, even though I just saw your tip to take my time. I figure since I start rolling this dough a little over an hour after mixing, I'm in no danger of overfermenting the dough. Also, because this dough is so stiff, I don't think there is any chance of the layers merging unless you let the dough rest in a very warm area for well over an hour; possibly even several hours.

I finally got tonight's dough rolled and trimmed, and I want to report the important numbers before I forget them. While I'm thinking about it, I also want to report that I did not use any bench flour tonight. (I also didn't oil the dough while proofing, which made it easier to keep from using bench flour.) Bench flour would have made this essentially impossible to roll as thin as I rolled it.

I rolled two skins out of the dough I made this afternoon. One skin is just one layer, and it's very thin; about the thickness of a flour tortilla. I can't remember the exact weight right now, but I believe it came out to about 4.5 oz, for 11". Very thin. I did this for two reasons: 1) I wanted to limit this dough batch to 20 oz, and 2) I wanted to see if one thin layer of this dough ends up anything like a Dayton (Ohio) style pizza.

The important skin is 11", 6 layers, and weighs 9.4 oz. So that means I got this one just under TF=0.100 oz of dough per square inch (TF=0.099). Cool.

This was hard work. Y'all will probably love the pictures. I'm not gonna do many more of these unless I somehow manage to get my hands on a sheeter.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2014, 09:30:45 PM »
This is just after mixing the dough with the flat beater for probably only two or three minutes (on speed 2). I used John's formula from the original post, including All Trumps unbromated flour. However, I increased the IDY percentage to 1.1% (from 0.75%).

(I have 11 more pictures on the way.)


 

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