Author Topic: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker  (Read 7549 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2014, 11:07:18 AM »
John, it just occurred to me that you may be at a much higher altitude than me. If so, that might explain some of the problems I had while preparing this dough. I think I'm gonna use one of my skins sometime today.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2014, 11:10:51 AM »
I just checked. Nope.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2014, 11:50:01 AM »
I just checked. Nope.
Your skins should be good to go 18 to 24 hours after refrigerating.  When you say you checked, what are you looking for?  You should see absolutely no rise in your skin...it should look exactly the way it did when you refrigerated it.  In fact, if it rises, you've got problems...that's why I quick cool them in the freezer before refrigerating.  Your cold refrigerator should be perfect for this skin.

John

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2014, 01:38:53 PM »
When you say you checked, what are you looking for?

To clarify what I meant when I said "I just checked":

I checked the internet to find out the elevation of your city. If I remember correctly, Wikipedia said you're about 800 feet above sea level. I believe I'm about 600 feet above sea level, so it appears that elevation disparity is not an issue.

I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread, but my fermentation time has been way off normal since I started making pizzas in my new home. Most of the pizzas I've made since I moved have been the following NY style formula:

100% All Trumps bromated
63% Water (30 g of warm water for yeast. The rest is cold tap water with one small-ish ice cube added.)
0.45% ADY
1.75% Salt
1.5% Oil

Divide, scale, and round right after mixing, then straight into the fridge until three hours before I intend to use the dough.

That's the same trusty formula and workflow I used for 48-hour dough at my parents' house, but it's more like a 96-hour dough here. I'm not exaggerating, either. And the dough feels stiffer than dough at my parents' house, too. I guess it's the water, but I haven't been able to rule out other factors yet.

Oven's heating up. Gonna try out one of these skins soon.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2014, 01:47:14 PM »
In response to the rest of your post, I'm totally on board with keeping the skin cold, then using it cold. Your dough management is very similar to my Tommy's dough management. It's just that my dough looks and feels stiffer than how your dough looks to me (which is consistent with the NY style issues I've had lately). Also, I don't expect to get the oven spring you appear to have gotten with your pizza in the original post. Hope I'm wrong.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2014, 02:08:09 PM »
This should help with very stiff dough in the future. I just got the big rolling pin yesterday. It's 15" wide and pretty heavy. The small one is a standard home-sized rolling pin. The bananas are for scale (although I think they actually made the pic less useful than it would be if I had left out the bananas).
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2014, 03:43:25 PM »
This pizza came out much better than I expected, considering some of the problems I've been having. I figured it was going to be hard as a rock, but it ended up slightly softer than a rock. :) I used straight 7/11 for sauce (because I didn't feel like thinking about how I should make a sauce specifically for this pizza).

This pizza seemed to hint that there should be some noticeable sweetness in the sauce, along with maybe a hint of crushed red pepper. I'm not sure what else I could do to a sauce, but I think something more dense and less chunky than 7/11 might be appropriate.

I baked on stone at 500 (calibrated +30) for a little over 8 minutes. Probably should have given it 9 minutes.

Definitely very Shakey's-like, which is what I expected.

I think I'll make another batch of this dough today, using the same percentages for everything except yeast. I'll probably increase the IDY by about 50% (only because yeast doesn't seem to do its job very well in my home).

Oh yeah, I topped the pizza with pepperoni, sausage, and green bell pepper to honor John, who always seems to use that topping combination. (I bought the pepper just for this pizza. This is probably the first time I've ever topped a pizza with bell pepper.)

Pic 1: The skin after 2 days of refrigeration in Press'n Seal wrap.
Pic 2: Pizza just out of the oven.
Pic 3: Trying to show lamination from slightly above the pizza.
Pic 4: Trying to show lamination from slightly above the pizza.
Pic 5: Upskirt.
Pic 6: Lamination.
Pic 7: Lamination.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline dmckean44

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2014, 03:59:17 PM »
Great job Ryan!

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2014, 03:59:35 PM »

This pizza seemed to hint that there should be some noticeable sweetness in the sauce, along with maybe a hint of crushed red pepper. I'm not sure what else I could do to a sauce, but I think something more dense and less chunky than 7/11 might be appropriate.



Definitely very Shakey's-like, which is what I expected.


Maybe extra heavy puree an a paint brush.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2014, 04:22:27 PM »
Maybe extra heavy puree an a paint brush.

Bob

In other words, steal every known Shakey's trick.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2014, 06:04:02 PM »
I just just made some more of this dough, but with a couple minor changes: 1) I increased the IDY to 1.1% (from 0.75%), and 2) I only made 20 oz of dough, instead of 34 oz.

One thing I seem to have learned from my first try is that it's good to keep the warm oven well above "Bread Proof" mode temperature (100 degrees). I estimate my oven is at about 130 degrees right now, as the dough is just finishing the second 15-minute proof period.

John, would you say the oven should be much warmer than 100 degrees? I think my biggest problem the first time is that I needed my dough to be warmer (and thus softer) than it was after I'd bulk-fermented it in a barely-warm oven of about 100-110 degrees.

I've been taking pictures of each step.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2014, 07:01:23 PM »
Here's another change I'm making this time:

After the 30-minute oven ferment, I rolled the dough as much as I could, into a rectangle about 10" x 16". (I'll show a picture later.) Since I can't roll the dough any larger right now, I put the dough on a pizza serving tray and into the warm oven again and set a timer for 15 minutes. I'll probably have to do this again at least one more time after I roll the dough some more.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2014, 07:30:25 PM »
I just just made some more of this dough, but with a couple minor changes: 1) I increased the IDY to 1.1% (from 0.75%), and 2) I only made 20 oz of dough, instead of 34 oz.

One thing I seem to have learned from my first try is that it's good to keep the warm oven well above "Bread Proof" mode temperature (100 degrees). I estimate my oven is at about 130 degrees right now, as the dough is just finishing the second 15-minute proof period.

John, would you say the oven should be much warmer than 100 degrees? I think my biggest problem the first time is that I needed my dough to be warmer (and thus softer) than it was after I'd bulk-fermented it in a barely-warm oven of about 100-110 degrees.

I've been taking pictures of each step.
My oven is right around 105...just warm..     I can get a nice 10 * 20 inch sheet the first roll pretty easily with a 16 ounce batch.  Just take your time Ryan,  do as little work on your dough as you can....let it rest between rollings....the rests let the dough loosen up for you.  Good luck
John

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2014, 09:11:10 PM »
I did take my time tonight, John, even though I just saw your tip to take my time. I figure since I start rolling this dough a little over an hour after mixing, I'm in no danger of overfermenting the dough. Also, because this dough is so stiff, I don't think there is any chance of the layers merging unless you let the dough rest in a very warm area for well over an hour; possibly even several hours.

I finally got tonight's dough rolled and trimmed, and I want to report the important numbers before I forget them. While I'm thinking about it, I also want to report that I did not use any bench flour tonight. (I also didn't oil the dough while proofing, which made it easier to keep from using bench flour.) Bench flour would have made this essentially impossible to roll as thin as I rolled it.

I rolled two skins out of the dough I made this afternoon. One skin is just one layer, and it's very thin; about the thickness of a flour tortilla. I can't remember the exact weight right now, but I believe it came out to about 4.5 oz, for 11". Very thin. I did this for two reasons: 1) I wanted to limit this dough batch to 20 oz, and 2) I wanted to see if one thin layer of this dough ends up anything like a Dayton (Ohio) style pizza.

The important skin is 11", 6 layers, and weighs 9.4 oz. So that means I got this one just under TF=0.100 oz of dough per square inch (TF=0.099). Cool.

This was hard work. Y'all will probably love the pictures. I'm not gonna do many more of these unless I somehow manage to get my hands on a sheeter.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2014, 09:30:45 PM »
This is just after mixing the dough with the flat beater for probably only two or three minutes (on speed 2). I used John's formula from the original post, including All Trumps unbromated flour. However, I increased the IDY percentage to 1.1% (from 0.75%).

(I have 11 more pictures on the way.)
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2014, 09:37:43 PM »
1. Repost of the first pic, just after mixing the dough.
2. After 15 minutes in a very warm oven (about 130 degrees).
3. After pressing the dough with my fists, immediately following the first 15-minute rise.
4. Folded the dough into thirds before putting the dough back in the oven.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2014, 09:40:39 PM »
1. Basically the same picture as the last picture in the previous post, except I moved the dough back to the mixer bowl.
2. After 15 more minutes in the warm oven. (30 minutes total at this point.)
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2014, 09:45:38 PM »
1. After folding into thirds again, but in the other direction.
2. Basically the same as the previous picture, except I've moved the dough back to the mixer bowl.
3. After another 30 minutes in a warm oven. (60 minutes total at this point.)
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2014, 10:02:34 PM »
The last three pics.

1) As big as I could roll the dough before letting it rest in the warm oven for 15 minutes. (Serving tray is 17".)
2) As big as I could roll the dough after letting it rest for 15 minutes in the warm oven. (Nalgene 1 liter water bottle for scale.)
3) As big as I could roll the dough after letting it rest for another 15 minutes in the warm oven. (Rolling pins for scale.) The dough was about 10" x 40" at this point.

I actually did roll the dough sheet a little longer than this before folding it into 6 layers and rolling to about an 11.5" x 11.5" square. I then used an 11" perforated pan as a trimming template and a small pizza wheel to trim the skin. After my first trim, the skin weighed 9.4 oz and I was happy because I didn't need to roll it any thinner than that. As hard as it is to roll this dough, at least it doesn't shrink after you trim it. (Actually, it may have shrunk half an inch, but that's not a big deal.)

I haven't taken any more pictures yet. I was gonna take a picture of the skin, but I think you all know what a skin looks like, so I decided not to. This skin is not dry and scaly-looking like the last one.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2014, 10:27:30 PM »
As I think everyone can see, my dough isn't rising very much. The only time you can see that the dough has risen is in the picture after the 30-minute oven-rise. I know this dough shouldn't rise much, but it should rise more than this. Especially considering I increased the yeast by 50% over John's yeast percentage. John's dough looks airy; mine doesn't.

I'll probably try 1.5% or 2% IDY with the next batch. This failure to ferment is frustrating, because it's happening with every style of dough I make lately (since I moved). I don't think it's the yeast, partly because I use ADY for almost every other style of dough I make, and all my dough is doing this. My best guess is that it's the water. It's frustrating, but I'm sure I'll learn something very important from it eventually.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2014, 11:24:03 PM »
I did take my time tonight, John, even though I just saw your tip to take my time. I figure since I start rolling this dough a little over an hour after mixing, I'm in no danger of overfermenting the dough. Also, because this dough is so stiff, I don't think there is any chance of the layers merging unless you let the dough rest in a very warm area for well over an hour; possibly even several hours.

I finally got tonight's dough rolled and trimmed, and I want to report the important numbers before I forget them. While I'm thinking about it, I also want to report that I did not use any bench flour tonight. (I also didn't oil the dough while proofing, which made it easier to keep from using bench flour.) Bench flour would have made this essentially impossible to roll as thin as I rolled it.

I rolled two skins out of the dough I made this afternoon. One skin is just one layer, and it's very thin; about the thickness of a flour tortilla. I can't remember the exact weight right now, but I believe it came out to about 4.5 oz, for 11". Very thin. I did this for two reasons: 1) I wanted to limit this dough batch to 20 oz, and 2) I wanted to see if one thin layer of this dough ends up anything like a Dayton (Ohio) style pizza.

The important skin is 11", 6 layers, and weighs 9.4 oz. So that means I got this one just under TF=0.100 oz of dough per square inch (TF=0.099). Cool.

This was hard work. Y'all will probably love the pictures. I'm not gonna do many more of these unless I somehow manage to get my hands on a sheeter.
Your very ambitious Ryan!  So, look, if you end up getting anything great out of this exercise....try the Round Table clone....you can't believe how much an increase to 48% hydration helps the process....and the skins are absolutely excellent.  Also, as for your single sheet Dayton pizza, don't be afraid to try developing your mixed dough more for that one, maybe add 2 more stretch and folds.  I think you'll find you'll get a better textured skin.  Looking forward to seeing your baked pizzas!!
John

Offline dogboy

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2014, 01:02:05 PM »
Your very ambitious Ryan!  So, look, if you end up getting anything great out of this exercise....try the Round Table clone....you can't believe how much an increase to 48% hydration helps the process....and the skins are absolutely excellent.  Also, as for your single sheet Dayton pizza, don't be afraid to try developing your mixed dough more for that one, maybe add 2 more stretch and folds.  I think you'll find you'll get a better textured skin.  Looking forward to seeing your baked pizzas!!
John
I am working on using your techniques right now. I have rolled it out after 60 minutes and it rolled out great. It's been folded and sitting waiting for the next roll out.
I was surprised how easy it was to roll with the low hydration. I'm at 40%. In the past it has been extremely difficult but your techniques have made a great diffrence.
How do you think it would be to bake after 8 hours instead of 24?
I do have a poolish dough sitting now that I can make for tonight.  But I really want to try the cracker tonight.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2014, 06:56:10 PM »
I am working on using your techniques right now. I have rolled it out after 60 minutes and it rolled out great. It's been folded and sitting waiting for the next roll out.
I was surprised how easy it was to roll with the low hydration. I'm at 40%. In the past it has been extremely difficult but your techniques have made a great diffrence.
How do you think it would be to bake after 8 hours instead of 24?
I do have a poolish dough sitting now that I can make for tonight.  But I really want to try the cracker tonight.
Unfortunately, like any other dough, this skin needs time to develop the texture you want.....at least wait to 18 hours, that way your work won't be wasted.
Good luck
John

Offline dogboy

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2014, 08:59:24 PM »
Unfortunately, like any other dough, this skin needs time to develop the texture you want.....at least wait to 18 hours, that way your work won't be wasted.
Good luck
John
well... I couldn't wait. Texture turned out well. But for sure lacked flavor. I have 1.5 batches left and I will for sure wait 24 to 48 hours.  But truly the texture was exactly what I have been trying to accomplish for years. Thanks for your help.
 Will the texture change along with building flavor after 18 to 48 hours?
Here is a couple photos of tonight's fazzari laminated cracker.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2014, 11:36:49 PM »
well... I couldn't wait. Texture turned out well. But for sure lacked flavor. I have 1.5 batches left and I will for sure wait 24 to 48 hours.  But truly the texture was exactly what I have been trying to accomplish for years. Thanks for your help.
 Will the texture change along with building flavor after 18 to 48 hours?
Here is a couple photos of tonight's fazzari laminated cracker.
What oven temp on that?

Yes, text will be different...
Bob
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 11:38:46 PM by Chicago Bob »
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