Author Topic: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker  (Read 4222 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2014, 09:37:43 PM »
1. Repost of the first pic, just after mixing the dough.
2. After 15 minutes in a very warm oven (about 130 degrees).
3. After pressing the dough with my fists, immediately following the first 15-minute rise.
4. Folded the dough into thirds before putting the dough back in the oven.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2014, 09:40:39 PM »
1. Basically the same picture as the last picture in the previous post, except I moved the dough back to the mixer bowl.
2. After 15 more minutes in the warm oven. (30 minutes total at this point.)

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2014, 09:45:38 PM »
1. After folding into thirds again, but in the other direction.
2. Basically the same as the previous picture, except I've moved the dough back to the mixer bowl.
3. After another 30 minutes in a warm oven. (60 minutes total at this point.)

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2014, 10:02:34 PM »
The last three pics.

1) As big as I could roll the dough before letting it rest in the warm oven for 15 minutes. (Serving tray is 17".)
2) As big as I could roll the dough after letting it rest for 15 minutes in the warm oven. (Nalgene 1 liter water bottle for scale.)
3) As big as I could roll the dough after letting it rest for another 15 minutes in the warm oven. (Rolling pins for scale.) The dough was about 10" x 40" at this point.

I actually did roll the dough sheet a little longer than this before folding it into 6 layers and rolling to about an 11.5" x 11.5" square. I then used an 11" perforated pan as a trimming template and a small pizza wheel to trim the skin. After my first trim, the skin weighed 9.4 oz and I was happy because I didn't need to roll it any thinner than that. As hard as it is to roll this dough, at least it doesn't shrink after you trim it. (Actually, it may have shrunk half an inch, but that's not a big deal.)

I haven't taken any more pictures yet. I was gonna take a picture of the skin, but I think you all know what a skin looks like, so I decided not to. This skin is not dry and scaly-looking like the last one.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2014, 10:27:30 PM »
As I think everyone can see, my dough isn't rising very much. The only time you can see that the dough has risen is in the picture after the 30-minute oven-rise. I know this dough shouldn't rise much, but it should rise more than this. Especially considering I increased the yeast by 50% over John's yeast percentage. John's dough looks airy; mine doesn't.

I'll probably try 1.5% or 2% IDY with the next batch. This failure to ferment is frustrating, because it's happening with every style of dough I make lately (since I moved). I don't think it's the yeast, partly because I use ADY for almost every other style of dough I make, and all my dough is doing this. My best guess is that it's the water. It's frustrating, but I'm sure I'll learn something very important from it eventually.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2014, 11:24:03 PM »
I did take my time tonight, John, even though I just saw your tip to take my time. I figure since I start rolling this dough a little over an hour after mixing, I'm in no danger of overfermenting the dough. Also, because this dough is so stiff, I don't think there is any chance of the layers merging unless you let the dough rest in a very warm area for well over an hour; possibly even several hours.

I finally got tonight's dough rolled and trimmed, and I want to report the important numbers before I forget them. While I'm thinking about it, I also want to report that I did not use any bench flour tonight. (I also didn't oil the dough while proofing, which made it easier to keep from using bench flour.) Bench flour would have made this essentially impossible to roll as thin as I rolled it.

I rolled two skins out of the dough I made this afternoon. One skin is just one layer, and it's very thin; about the thickness of a flour tortilla. I can't remember the exact weight right now, but I believe it came out to about 4.5 oz, for 11". Very thin. I did this for two reasons: 1) I wanted to limit this dough batch to 20 oz, and 2) I wanted to see if one thin layer of this dough ends up anything like a Dayton (Ohio) style pizza.

The important skin is 11", 6 layers, and weighs 9.4 oz. So that means I got this one just under TF=0.100 oz of dough per square inch (TF=0.099). Cool.

This was hard work. Y'all will probably love the pictures. I'm not gonna do many more of these unless I somehow manage to get my hands on a sheeter.
Your very ambitious Ryan!  So, look, if you end up getting anything great out of this exercise....try the Round Table clone....you can't believe how much an increase to 48% hydration helps the process....and the skins are absolutely excellent.  Also, as for your single sheet Dayton pizza, don't be afraid to try developing your mixed dough more for that one, maybe add 2 more stretch and folds.  I think you'll find you'll get a better textured skin.  Looking forward to seeing your baked pizzas!!
John

Offline dogboy

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2014, 01:02:05 PM »
Your very ambitious Ryan!  So, look, if you end up getting anything great out of this exercise....try the Round Table clone....you can't believe how much an increase to 48% hydration helps the process....and the skins are absolutely excellent.  Also, as for your single sheet Dayton pizza, don't be afraid to try developing your mixed dough more for that one, maybe add 2 more stretch and folds.  I think you'll find you'll get a better textured skin.  Looking forward to seeing your baked pizzas!!
John
I am working on using your techniques right now. I have rolled it out after 60 minutes and it rolled out great. It's been folded and sitting waiting for the next roll out.
I was surprised how easy it was to roll with the low hydration. I'm at 40%. In the past it has been extremely difficult but your techniques have made a great diffrence.
How do you think it would be to bake after 8 hours instead of 24?
I do have a poolish dough sitting now that I can make for tonight.  But I really want to try the cracker tonight.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2014, 06:56:10 PM »
I am working on using your techniques right now. I have rolled it out after 60 minutes and it rolled out great. It's been folded and sitting waiting for the next roll out.
I was surprised how easy it was to roll with the low hydration. I'm at 40%. In the past it has been extremely difficult but your techniques have made a great diffrence.
How do you think it would be to bake after 8 hours instead of 24?
I do have a poolish dough sitting now that I can make for tonight.  But I really want to try the cracker tonight.
Unfortunately, like any other dough, this skin needs time to develop the texture you want.....at least wait to 18 hours, that way your work won't be wasted.
Good luck
John

Offline dogboy

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2014, 08:59:24 PM »
Unfortunately, like any other dough, this skin needs time to develop the texture you want.....at least wait to 18 hours, that way your work won't be wasted.
Good luck
John
well... I couldn't wait. Texture turned out well. But for sure lacked flavor. I have 1.5 batches left and I will for sure wait 24 to 48 hours.  But truly the texture was exactly what I have been trying to accomplish for years. Thanks for your help.
 Will the texture change along with building flavor after 18 to 48 hours?
Here is a couple photos of tonight's fazzari laminated cracker.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2014, 11:36:49 PM »
well... I couldn't wait. Texture turned out well. But for sure lacked flavor. I have 1.5 batches left and I will for sure wait 24 to 48 hours.  But truly the texture was exactly what I have been trying to accomplish for years. Thanks for your help.
 Will the texture change along with building flavor after 18 to 48 hours?
Here is a couple photos of tonight's fazzari laminated cracker.
What oven temp on that?

Yes, text will be different...
Bob
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 11:38:46 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2014, 08:12:13 AM »
What oven temp on that?

Yes, text will be different...
Bob
Bob is correct.  You should find your skins becoming even more tender as they age, and they will definitely get a deeper flavor.  I think I found a little tidbit of info which is kind of interesting.  Each part of dry milk that one adds to a recipe takes 1.1 parts water to hydrate.  So, if my calculations are correct, a 40% hydrated dough would actually be a 38.63% hydrated dough when accounting for the milk.  So, like I've been saying, kick up the hydration to 45 to 48 for home use....you still get excellent skins!!  Good job on you skins!
John

Offline dogboy

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2014, 08:58:52 AM »
What oven temp on that?

Yes, text will be different...
Bob
bob I cooked on steel 9 minutes at 550.
John I will kick up the hydration.  I forgot to add the dry milk and will do that on the next batch.
Currently have 4 skins sitting and waiting. Patience patience patience. Lol.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2014, 06:15:12 PM »
I just made another batch of this dough, with Superlative flour at 48% hydration and with 1.1% IDY. I still have two skins in the fridge from my previous two batches (2 days old and 4 days old, I think). I'm gonna use both of those skins in a few hours. Since I have a guest or two coming over, it's possible that I may not be able to take any pics, but I'll try.

I made the really thin single-layer skin last night. It tasted pretty good but didn't look very good. No pics. The skin was 11" and weighed 4.7 or 4.8 oz.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2014, 06:17:05 PM »
Oh yeah, and this is my first time using Superlative flour. I'm excited to try the new flour, even though I bought it for NY style.

Offline dogboy

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2014, 12:31:01 AM »
32 hours. Much better flavor then last night. Skin turned out well. I rolled it pretty thin. Maybe 1/8. Next one I'll make a little thicker.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2014, 09:51:13 AM »
Dog, that does not appear laminated to me. Is it?

Offline dogboy

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2014, 10:20:13 AM »
Dog, that does not appear laminated to me. Is it?
the process was definitely laminated. I agree though it doesn't look laminated.  It maybe because I rolled it to thin? Guessing 1/8 or less. I was surprised at thin I was able to roll it with that low of hydration. In the past I had big problems but using the Fazzari techniques I was able to roll it paper thin.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2014, 07:51:32 PM »
I made a pizza tonight out of the dough from last night. Much better, but still a lot of room for improvement. Took several pics. Will share after resting my brain for a while.

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2014, 03:49:13 AM »
Laminated pizzas have become the de facto standard at my house because we like the texture of them so much.  My wife also feels that thin crust leftovers re-heat better than NY Style pizzas.

The last time I made these I decided to compare the use of vegetable (soybean) oil with lard.  I used these formulas:

15 inch with soybean oil:

Flour (100%): 347.09 g  |  12.24 oz | 0.77 lbs   <----------- KABF
Water (45%): 156.19 g  |  5.51 oz | 0.34 lbs     <----------- beer
IDY (0.75%): 2.6 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Salt (1.75%): 6.07 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.27 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Garlic Romano Sprinkle (1.5%): 5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.57 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%): 13.88 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.06 tsp | 1.02 tbsp
Total (153%): 531.05 g | 18.73 oz | 1.17 lbs | TF = 0.106

15 inch with lard:

Flour (100%): 347.66 g  |  12.26 oz | 0.77 lbs     <----------- KABF
Water (45%): 156.45 g  |  5.52 oz | 0.34 lbs       <----------- beer
IDY (0.75%): 2.61 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Salt (1.75%): 6.08 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.27 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Garlic Romano Sprinkle (1.25%): 4.35 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Lard (4%): 13.91 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.21 tsp | 1.07 tbsp
Total (152.75%): 531.05 g | 18.73 oz | 1.17 lbs | TF = 0.106

I ended up adding 10 g more of beer to each dough because at this altitude my flour is so dry it wouldn't incorporate otherwise. 
I pressed  the scrappy dough together.  Each dough ball weighed 537 g.   Then I placed them in separate non-oiled zip lock bags and into the refrigerator for about 30 hours.

For the dough handling, I placed the dough balls in a barely warm oven along with a glass of hot water to add humidity and make sure they didn't dry out too much.  After about an hour I rolled out each dough ball into a rough circle, about 1/4 inch thick.  Then I folded the circle in half and then in half again (four layers).   Then it was back into the warm oven (with a fresh glass of hot water) for another 45 minutes or so.  The folded dough was then rolled out and cut into 15 inch circles.  I think keeping the dough warm and moist is essential to make it easier to roll out.  Neither crust was docked.  I placed them on serving trays and covered them completely with saran wrap and then into the refrigerator for about 6 hours when we were ready to eat.  I didn't let them warm up after removing from the fridge -- just took them out and started adding sauce, cheese and toppings.  The finished pizzas were about 14 inches in diameter.  I baked them at 475 F on steel for 9 to 10 minutes after pre-heating the oven to 535 degrees.

So which was better?  To my surprise, I actually preferred the soybean oil pizza.  Both crusts had great flavor, texture, and similar lamination.  The soybean oil crust was maybe a little crisper while the lard crust was a bit more flaky.  I can't say that one was better than the other, they were just slightly different, and personal preference could easily go either way.

Thanks to all of the forum members (you know who you are  :D) that have contributed to teaching the creation of this style of pizza.

The first 3 pics are the pizza made with soybean oil in the crust, the last 5 are the pizza made with lard in the crust. 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 12:29:52 AM by RockyMountainPie »

Offline Lydia

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Re: Using every trick in the book for an excellent laminated cracker
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2014, 09:31:41 AM »
Hey there Rocky M.

Really love the open netting of the bottom crust layer in pic 5. and nice bottom crust color too. [size=78%]It looks just like Me & Eds.[/size]


A little surprised it was KA BF.


Was this your typical hydrogenated lard? 


ok...what is this "steel" that you and some others are baking on?



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