Author Topic: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?  (Read 1270 times)

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Offline Neapolitan

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Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« on: February 25, 2014, 05:25:01 AM »
I am sorry if the title gives you are an inappropriate question vibe in relation to the subject.
In here we don't have all the brands or variety available to us. People hardly know what high gluten flour is. So I was thinking weather it is okay to mix the semolina and flour during the kneeing process to get that HG Flour consistency while making a pizza dough?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 01:56:57 PM »
Neapolitan,

Since most semolina flours have a protein content in the range of about 12-12.9%, and since basic all-purpose flours have a protein icontent in the range of about 8-12%, any blend of the two flours will not have a protein content that approaches the protein content of high gluten flour. However, adding semolina flour to all-purpose flour, or to bread flour, will make for a somewhat stiffer dough, in part due to the fact that semolina flour can absorb more water than other flours. The usual recommendation is to use semolina flour at around 15-25% of the total blend, although I have seen use of semolina of up to 50%. However, at that level, a finished crust can take on the feel of shoe leather after cooling.

If you can find the protein content of the flours available to you in India, you might be able to use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to test different blends.

As for some examples of how semolina flour can be used as a blend to make pizza, you might go to the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg70317#msg70317 and type the word "semolina" (without the quotes) in the search box at the top of the page to the right (below the PizzaMaking.com name).

Peter

Offline Neapolitan

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2014, 06:11:44 AM »
Thank you so much Pete. I tried the recipe with 10% Semolina, 25% Whole Wheat Flour and 65% AP Flour. On our prior discussed recipe of Canadave. Since I didn't have a good idea of measurement of sugar and I may have added a bit more IDY, so by second day, the dough in the container was all bubbly and over fermented like the one you have shown your pics. All the semolina made it's outer texture look like a raw chicken breast with skin. I didn't have Pizza Peel so by the time I put my perfectly hand stretched pizza on the hot stone, it got all messed up. Took it 5 mins to cook and 5 more mins for me to ruin it by burning the bottom and making it hard rather than crispy and upper texture got some serious caramelization aswell because I placed the stone next to the top broiler for the last 3 mins. But the inner bread texture and the flavor was beautiful with lots of air holes and had a nice flavor. The puffiness of the crust was just like the pizzaria style. I would like to thank you for encouraging me to get started and at least bringing me on correct track.

I think 2 or 3 more go will give me a better idea. I made two more doughs, one last night and one today but this time I measure it perfectly, only problem is that I think the yeast's died which is weird because I open the seal 3 days ago and the dough worked just fine but yesterday the dough I made had hardly any rise and does not have the strong yeasty smell but rather mild smell. I can see that it has formed small holes at the bottom of it's plastic container but no changes in it's shape and no noticeable rise. So I increased the amount to a Tbsp of yeast and a Tbsp of sugar on today's dough, to see what happens. Earlier I tried to see if my IDY forms froth on a luke warm water with a Tsp of sugar. It only gave me that bready and yeasty smell but no froth, idk if IDY works like ADY during the testing. Do you know any method to test IDY? The chances should be unlikely for the yeast to die so soon. I bought the yeast last month, opened the seal like 3 days ago. Manufacturing date shows Jan 2014, haven't let any moisture get to the rest the yeast and I been keeping in a relatively cold and dry temperature. If the efficiency is over within the 24hrs everytime after I open a seal, it will be a hell of a lot costlier than I've imagined.?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 06:16:11 AM by Neapolitan »

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2014, 07:34:04 AM »
i would do 5% semolina, 10% WWF, and 85% ap/bread/hg flour

also, keep opened yeast frozen. i do that and its 'use within 3 months' lifespan lasts a year or more. as long as you keep nutrients and moisture out of the yeast, you'll be fine keeping it frozen.
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Offline Neapolitan

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2014, 10:21:06 AM »
Hi complex,
Thank you for the reply. Complex, when you suggest to keep the yeast frozen, I don't understand how will I be able to stop it from coming into contact with moisture then? Anything I place in the freezer has wetness once it gets back to it's normal temp.

Update on the 24hr dough. It has started to form bubbles on the upper surface, although this looks a lot tighter than the last dough, but maybe that's because it's a bit harder because I added a pinch of flour more so that that dough doesn't stick to my hand after the kneading was done. And today's dough was was placed after 3 hrs inside the freezer, so it too had a noticeable rise. I think a Tbsp of IDY for a Cup of flour is still too much though, judging by the first dough, i would expect it to rise fast so within 24, I am hoping to see some results other wise something has gone wrong with yeast seal.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2014, 11:31:19 AM »
I made two more doughs, one last night and one today but this time I measure it perfectly, only problem is that I think the yeast's died which is weird because I open the seal 3 days ago and the dough worked just fine but yesterday the dough I made had hardly any rise and does not have the strong yeasty smell but rather mild smell. I can see that it has formed small holes at the bottom of it's plastic container but no changes in it's shape and no noticeable rise. So I increased the amount to a Tbsp of yeast and a Tbsp of sugar on today's dough, to see what happens. Earlier I tried to see if my IDY forms froth on a luke warm water with a Tsp of sugar. It only gave me that bready and yeasty smell but no froth, idk if IDY works like ADY during the testing. Do you know any method to test IDY? The chances should be unlikely for the yeast to die so soon. I bought the yeast last month, opened the seal like 3 days ago. Manufacturing date shows Jan 2014, haven't let any moisture get to the rest the yeast and I been keeping in a relatively cold and dry temperature. If the efficiency is over within the 24hrs everytime after I open a seal, it will be a hell of a lot costlier than I've imagined.?
Neapolitan

I can't speak to the quality of dry yeast products used in India, but in the U/S. it is rare for yeast to go bad if it has been properly used and stored after opening the package or bottle. There are ways of testing the freshness of dry yeast, such as described, for example, at http://www.redstaryeast.com/lessons-yeast-baking/yeast-shelf-life-storage/yeast-freshness-test, but that method makes sense mostly if you plan to use a packet of yeast to make the dough. Also, if you use a small amount of yeast, which is very common for a dough that is to be cold fermented for a reasonably long time, the method described at the above link will not result in much foaming activity, if at all, although sometimes you can get noticeable foaming--but still just barely--if you add a bit of sugar to the yeast and water mixture.

Seeing the kinds of problems you have been experiencing, I'd like to suggest that you read the thread starting at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg19563;topicseen#msg19563, and including the post on oven techniques at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965. Since your ingredients and equipment and oven may be different than what we have available in the U.S., not all of what is discussed in the above thread and posts will apply in your case. So what you want to pay attention to is technique and the technical principles involved and to try to adapt those to your particular situation. If you are making the dough by hand, you might find the methods described in the abovementioned thread at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg63786#msg63786 to be useful.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2014, 11:11:20 PM »
I am sorry if the title gives you are an inappropriate question vibe in relation to the subject.
In here we don't have all the brands or variety available to us. People hardly know what high gluten flour is. So I was thinking weather it is okay to mix the semolina and flour during the kneeing process to get that HG Flour consistency while making a pizza dough?
Can you get Vital Wheat Gluten over there Neo?

Bob
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Offline dmckean44

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2014, 11:33:39 PM »
I am sorry if the title gives you are an inappropriate question vibe in relation to the subject.
In here we don't have all the brands or variety available to us. People hardly know what high gluten flour is. So I was thinking weather it is okay to mix the semolina and flour during the kneeing process to get that HG Flour consistency while making a pizza dough?

What style pizza are you aiming to make? AP flour woorks for a surprising amount of doughs.

Offline Neapolitan

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 02:03:18 AM »
Thanks Pete, I'll check the links and give it a thorough read.

Bob I am not sure if we have Wheat Gluten here, I'm going to have to check. Most people in mall here don't know what is kept where and it is impossible for me to find a particular thing out of 1000 things if there is no assistance from mall workers to guide me in the bakery section even if it is there. It took me 3 trips to the mall to find me IDY, and I found it by luck, atleast now I know where to look for next time I will go.

What style pizza are you aiming to make? AP flour woorks for a surprising amount of doughs.

I am try to make a homemade pizza which has pizzaria style of texture, kind of like papa johns clone, crispy texture on the crust's with micro blisters and puffy on the inside and I am not a thin crust fan to I like it a bit puffy not not too bready. Kind of like CPK

Offline karthikrr

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2014, 03:08:01 PM »
Not sure if its okay to resurrect this thread, but since I am from India, I wanted to ask the OP what he means by AP here. Are you talking about an actual 'All Purpose Flour' or are you using Maida? I have never seen an actual AP in India, and most people generally refer to Maida when they say AP. However, if memory serves, somebody on this forum looked into it and said Maida is closer to Cake/Pastry Flour than AP. If you are trying to make a blended flour, I imagine this will make a huge difference.

I haven't tried this myself yet, but plan to next time I am home. Try getting some 'bread flour' from your local bakery... I am sure that will be a much better choice than Maida (assuming you did use Maida)... The only other thing I can think of is to buy hard wheat grain and get it milled, but if you are only trying to bake at home and not planning to open a pizzeria any time soon, I guess this might be a bit of an over kill... Plus, since you appear to be from Delhi, I wonder if you can even find a mill there :)

If you do discover a decent mix, please do let me know. I live in NL at the moment and only finally have started making pizzas that resemble what I want them to be. I hope to be able to continue to do this when I am back in India!

Oh also, FYI ... I just tried to make a pizza with whole wheat atta with disastrous results! There was good rise, it was workable and stretched nicely, but the bottom literally burnt to a crisp in 45 seconds (with my clamshell oven heated way above 400C). I used atta because I ran out of bread flour and couldn't be arsed to go buy some! On the plus side, I did discover that Cirio Pizzasimo is an awesome canned pizza sauce available here in NL :) For the experts on this forum, I tried to find the characteristics of whole wheat atta, but the best guess I can get to, based on a lot of conflicting info online, is that its a low-gluten hard wheat ... I have no idea if such a thing really exists, but the finished product, aside from the burnt bottom, was super soft and airy.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 03:13:42 PM by karthikrr »


Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2014, 03:43:58 PM »
I have a couple of questions for you guys.  I shop frequently at Indian markets, mainly for semolina and sandalwood soap.  They carry a brand called Golden Palace.  I use the white bag with gold printing, I forget the exact name.  It is a very fine semolina, and I suspect that it has some regular flour blended in.  It is a lighter color of yellow than the coarser semolina that I buy.  The guys at the store do not understand what I am asking.

I also bought a bag of Swarna chakki fresh atta.  It says 100% whole wheat atta, no maida mixed.  What is the English equivalent?

Oh, and for a book I am reading what is a lakh and a crore as it pertains to money?

Offline karthikrr

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2014, 05:22:13 PM »
Sigh, my browser swallowed the detailed reply I wrote! So this is going to sound more curt than I intended ...

I used to live in NY, stayed in London for a while and now live in the Netherlands. The brands out here simply do not exist in India and are usually rebrands by family owned enterprises in NJ and London (and surely other places as well)! Also, I see completely different brands in each of these cities and unfortunately have not lived anywhere long enough to do brand comparisons... So, with regards Golden Palace and Swarna, I cannot help much ... (hmm, Swarna means Gold in various Indian languages, I wonder if the two are from the same company!)

That said, some general info that may or may not be of use to you...

Semolina in India is called Sooji/Suji/Rawa/Rava (and a bunch of other names, but this covers what you can expect to see there). I have never heard of flour being mixed in with Semolina, but do know that in India, there are different kinds of Rava ... Most visibly, we get roasted and plain rava... My mom hates the roasted stuff and always said its best to buy plain rava and roast it yourself. But more relevant to you, I know that in South India, we also get something called 'Idli Rava' which is generally much finer and whiter than regular rava. I am going to guess this is the rava you ended up buying. The difference between this and regular rava is, as far as I understand it, somewhat like the difference between whole wheat and white wheat (bran, endosperm, etc) ... Are there no other brands available at the store? I would suggest looking for the Indian names as above to find the right kind for you.

Atta is the flour used in India to make Rotis/Chapattis/Phulkas/Pooris and a bunch of other breads. As best as I can tell, its a low-gluten hard wheat (if such a thing exists!) ... I literally just made pizza with atta and found that the dough was not very elastic at all and the finished product was like a very soft bread, and not in the least bit chewy. It was also completely burnt at the bottom because I don't have an IR thermometer and am still learning about my clamshell oven :)

The reason why they say 100% whole wheat, no maida, is because it became common practice some years ago to mix maida with atta in India. Maida is the ultra white flour that has lost all the bran and whatever ... The final refined product with almost no nutritional value. In terms of characteristics, I believe Maida is equivalent to cake/pastry flour. This practice fell out of favour with the consumers though and now most manufacturers make it a point to state that their product is 100% whole wheat atta and therefore superior to the generic attas being sold. As best as I can tell, the English equivalent is atta itself, since I have not seen any flour in the US or in Europe that can be substituted for atta. Here in the Netherlands, I just discovered a brand of atta called "Aachi" that has so far been making the best chapattis I ever made! If you want to make Indian breads and find this brand there, I would totally recommend giving it a try...

One lakh = 1,00,000 = 100,000 = One Hundred Thousand
One crore = 1,00,00,000 = 10,000,000 = Ten Million

If you are interested in learning more about the Indian Numbering System, check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_numbering_system

Forgot to ask ... What brand of Sandalwood Soap do you buy? The city I come from in India, Mysore, as far as I know, was the first to make Sandalwood soap... If you can find "Mysore Sandal Soap" in the store there, and its not the brand you have been buying, give it a try :) It is officially the only sandalwood soap that is made with 100% sandalwood oil! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysore_Sandal_Soap for more information... Oh and if you ever ate at a South Indian restaurant, yes, this is the same Mysore as the "Mysore Masala Dosa" ... And the "Mysore Ashtanga Yoga" ... AND the "Mysore Silk Saree" ... Hmm, never realized how much my little town has been exporting :P
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 05:31:05 PM by karthikrr »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2014, 05:30:42 PM »
Thank you.

Offline karthikrr

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2014, 05:34:21 PM »
No problem! If you do figure out any answers, please share... Im curious to know the answers too ...

Also, just edited my previous reply to ask about the sandalwood soap ... Not sure if you receive a notification for an edit...

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Semolina + AP Flour = HG Flour?
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2014, 05:50:22 PM »
I am pretty sure that is it.  It is in a cardboard box, kind of pinkish with a floral design.  I have used it for the last 10 years or so, great stuff!


 

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