Author Topic: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil  (Read 4755 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #100 on: September 30, 2014, 10:18:06 PM »
Marty,

Here is the corrected formulation for what Nate did:

Flour Blend*(100%):
Water (46%):
IDY (0.611%):
Salt (0.75424%):
Corn Oil (14%):
Butter (7%):
Sugar (0.53874%):
Total (168.90398%):
185 g  |  6.53 oz | 0.41 lbs
85.1 g  |  3 oz | 0.19 lbs
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
1.4 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
25.9 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.76 tsp | 1.92 tbsp
12.95 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.74 tsp | 0.91 tbsp
1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
312.47 g | 11.02 oz | 0.69 lbs | TF = 0.119943
* The Flour Blend comprises 85.5% Gold Medal All-purpose flour (159 grams), 5.4% semolina flour (10 grams), and 9.1% rice flour (17 grams), for a total of 185 grams
Note: The dough (312.47 grams) is for a single deep-dish pizza made in a 9" straight-sided pan with a depth of 2"; the dough is pushed up the sides of the pan to about 1.25"; the nominal thickness factor is 0.119943; no bowl residue compensation

You will note that the thickness factor went up to 0.119943. That is well within the range for a Chicago deep-dish pizza.

I will correct my earlier post to reflect the changes, and I will await your next iteration.

Peter


Offline drmatt357

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #101 on: September 30, 2014, 10:20:04 PM »
Well done
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 10:32:46 PM by drmatt357 »

Offline Marty Runik

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #102 on: September 30, 2014, 10:22:15 PM »
Now that I know thickness factor has little to do with the thickness of the pizza I will be dealing with dough weight from now on, at least until I have a better understanding of how the various conversions work.

Wouldn't it be easier to just have a multiple for the various types of pizzas so if you wanted to go from say a 9" to a 12" pizza with the same sides you just multiply all the ingredients by that multiple and your good to go? It might not be quite as accurate on dough amounts but it sure looks easier? I wonder how long it took Pete to become so familiar with all the complexities.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #103 on: September 30, 2014, 10:34:18 PM »
+1
Well said dare Bob! ;-D
Thank you....this style is probably THE most fun one to create.  But you gotta roll up your sleeves and get down an dirty. It is soooo forgiving....after a few trial runs....you are making Golden pizza with which to impress your family and friends ! [love that saying!].    8)
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Offline Marty Runik

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #104 on: September 30, 2014, 10:40:27 PM »
Ok heres the new one

Dough Ingredients

Total Flour Blend  (100%):    360.68 g  |  12.72 oz | 0.8 lbs
KAAP  ( 85.5%) 308.4 gr
Semoliona  (5.4%) 19.5 gr
Rice Flour (9.1%)  32.8 gr

Water (46%):    165.91 g  |  5.85 oz | 0.37 lbs
IDY (.611%):    2.2 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
Salt (.75%):    2.71 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Corn Oil (14%):    50.5 g | 1.78 oz | 0.11 lbs | 11.22 tsp | 3.74 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (7%):    25.25 g | 0.89 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.34 tsp | 1.78 tbsp
Sugar (.54%):    1.95 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Total (168.901%):   609.2 g | 21.49 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.12

How's my flour blend math?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 10:42:02 PM by Marty Runik »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #105 on: September 30, 2014, 10:44:58 PM »
Wouldn't it be easier to just have a multiple for the various types of pizzas so if you wanted to go from say a 9" to a 12" pizza with the same sides you just multiply all the ingredients by that multiple and your good to go? It might not be quite as accurate on dough amounts but it sure looks easier? I wonder how long it took Pete to become so familiar with all the complexities.
Marty,

Normally, one might choose to start out with a dough weight but in this case I had to work backwards from the answer to figure out what thickness factor Nate used. I had no other choice. Knowing that value allows one to make any size pizza with different types of pans, etc., and end up with a crust with the same general characteristics of the original recipe. I assume that is what you wanted. 

There may be a way of extrapolating from one size pizza to another but there are so many variables, such as the shape of the pans, the depth to which the dough is pressed up the sides of the pans, etc., that it would be a complex set of conversions.

The reason I know so much about the deep-dish dough calculating tool is because I did the basic design. Mike (BoyHitsCar) did the coding. My feelings are not hurt if people do not use the tool.

Peter

Offline Marty Runik

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #106 on: September 30, 2014, 11:02:46 PM »
Well I definitely want to learn as it's a great tool to vary sizes.

BTW  when a recipe has weights and percentages, but for yeast salt and sugar use teaspoon measurements, is it best to take the ratio that the flour went up or down and increase or decrease the teaspoon measurements by this same amount?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #107 on: September 30, 2014, 11:04:13 PM »
Ok heres the new one

Dough Ingredients

Total Flour Blend  (100%):    360.68 g  |  12.72 oz | 0.8 lbs
KAAP  ( 85.5%) 308.4 gr
Semolina  (5.4%) 19.5 gr
Rice Flour (9.1%)  32.8 gr

Water (46%):    165.91 g  |  5.85 oz | 0.37 lbs
IDY (.611%):    2.2 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
Salt (.75%):    2.71 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Corn Oil (14%):    50.5 g | 1.78 oz | 0.11 lbs | 11.22 tsp | 3.74 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (7%):    25.25 g | 0.89 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.34 tsp | 1.78 tbsp
Sugar (.54%):    1.95 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Total (168.901%):   609.2 g | 21.49 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.12

How's my flour blend math?
Marty,

You rounded your numbers so they are a bit different than mine but you did everything correctly, including the Flour Blend calculation. However, your calculations indicate that you plan to push the dough all the way up the sides of the pan (2"), not to about 1.25" like Nate did. Using 1.25", this is what I get:

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (46%):
IDY (0.611%):
Salt (0.75424%):
Corn Oil (14%):
Butter (7%):
Sugar (0.53874%):
Total (168.90398%):
303.58 g  |  10.71 oz | 0.67 lbs
139.65 g  |  4.93 oz | 0.31 lbs
1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
2.29 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
42.5 g | 1.5 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.44 tsp | 3.15 tbsp
21.25 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.49 tsp | 1.5 tbsp
1.64 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
512.77 g | 18.09 oz | 1.13 lbs | TF = 0.119943
* The Flour Blend comprises 85.5% Gold Medal All-purpose flour (259.6 grams), 5.4% semolina flour (16.4 grams), and 9.1% rice flour (27.6 grams), for a total of 303.6 grams
Note: The dough (512.77 grams) is for a single deep-dish pizza made in a 12" straight-sided pan with a depth of 2"; the dough is pushed up the sides of the pan to about 1.25"; the nominal thickness factor is 0.119943; no bowl residue compensation

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #108 on: September 30, 2014, 11:05:42 PM »
Marty,

Normally, one might choose to start out with a dough weight but in this case I had to work backwards from the answer to figure out what thickness factor Nate used. I had no other choice. Knowing that value allows one to make any size pizza with different types of pans, etc., and end up with a crust with the same general characteristics of the original recipe. I assume that is what you wanted. 

There may be a way of extrapolating from one size pizza to another but there are so many variables, such as the shape of the pans, the depth to which the dough is pressed up the sides of the pans, etc., that it would be a complex set of conversions.

The reason I know so much about the deep-dish dough calculating tool is because I did the basic design. Mike (BoyHitsCar) did the coding. My feelings are not hurt if people do not use the tool.

Peter
We are dealing with 3 basic pan diameter sizes here....any fool knows we are using a 1 1/2 in. sided pan....that is regulation.   3 different weights man.   :)

But God luv ya Peter....you are capable of the math so that one can use a 4in. sided pan if they so choose....and as always, Bob tips his hat to your knowledge/contributions sir. Thanks ole dude!!   8)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #109 on: September 30, 2014, 11:10:10 PM »
BTW  when a recipe has weights and percentages, but for yeast salt and sugar use teaspoon measurements, is it best to take the ratio that the flour went up or down and increase or decrease the teaspoon measurements by this same amount?
Marty,

I use conversion data that I developed for the deep-dish dough calculating tool, and the other dough calculating tools as well, to convert volume measurements such as Nate used to weights and I then calculated the baker's percents, which Nate did not provide. From that point on, the weights of the lesser ingredients are scaled up or down automatically.

Peter


Offline drmatt357

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #110 on: September 30, 2014, 11:23:51 PM »
As a side note, on one of the Malnatis' videos, he said he doesn't use fennel in his sausage. I don't recall the taste of their sausage since its been 25 plus years since I've had their pizza.

Anyone care to comment on that?  Garvey?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #111 on: September 30, 2014, 11:24:42 PM »
Bob,

If you look at the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd-calculator.html, you will see that there is a rectangular pan option. At the time that Mike and I were working on the deep-dish dough calculating tool, we wondered whether we should have that option since we had never heard of a rectangular (or square) Chicago style deep-dish pizza. This was after having done a rather extensive search to see if such a pizza existed. However, I was aware of work along similar lines at Rocky Rococo in the Midwest (see http://www.rockyrococo.com/), so we decided to leave that option in even if no one ever used it. Our job was to find solutions that helped the members out.

Peter

Offline Marty Runik

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #112 on: October 01, 2014, 12:03:58 AM »
So Pete is there anywhere you can go to read up on the basics of the math you use for all this? I'd like to be able to take a recipe that gives weight measurements only and go up or down in size. if something happens to you, how are the rest of us going to do these fancy conversions :)

Offline Garvey

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #113 on: October 01, 2014, 09:31:54 AM »
As a side note, on one of the Malnatis' videos, he said he doesn't use fennel in his sausage. I don't recall the taste of their sausage since its been 25 plus years since I've had their pizza.

Anyone care to comment on that?  Garvey?

That's true.  Their sausage is from Anichini Brothers, which is, alas, a wholesaler only.

However, I am of the philosophy of using whatever sausage I like.  So I go with fennel.

Peace,
Garvey


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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #114 on: October 01, 2014, 10:20:03 AM »
So Pete is there anywhere you can go to read up on the basics of the math you use for all this? I'd like to be able to take a recipe that gives weight measurements only and go up or down in size. if something happens to you, how are the rest of us going to do these fancy conversions :)
Marty,

If a recipe is stated in weights, then it is just a simple matter of converting the recipe to baker's percent format. If you are not familiar with baker's percents, there are many articles on the subject all over the Internet. However, one of our members did a nice job explaining baker's percents at http://www.mightypizzaoven.com/bakers-percentage-calculator. If the ingredients are common ingredients as are used in pizza making, then you can enter the baker's percents in one of the dough calculating tools and scale up or down as you wish. The most basic dough calculating tool for flat pizzas is the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough-calculator.html. Once you get into less common ingredients, the best tool for that purpose on the forum is the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html. That tool has over forty different ingredients. It took a lot of time and work to come up with the volume-to-weight conversions for that many ingredients. There are some good places for helping do that, such as at http://nutritiondata.self.com/, but the NutritionDataSelf website does not have every ingredient in its database, so you use product labels to calculate the conversion factors or you weigh volume samples on a small, accurate scale. Mike and I used all three of these methods. In some cases, where there were many sources of ingredients, such as vital wheat gluten, we averaged the conversion factors.

All of the tools, including the others listed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough-tools.html, allow users to work with dough weights or thickness factors. Calculating thickness factors for flat pizzas is easy if you know a particular dough ball weight and the size of pizza to be made with the dough. The thickness factor calculation is:

TF = (Dough ball weight)/(3.14159 x R x R), where R is the radius of the pizza.

Thickness factor calculations become more difficult for a deep-dish pizza because there is dough that covers both the bottom of the pan and the sides of the pan, and the dough can be pushed up either to the top of the pan or somewhere in between. The calculation is pretty straightforward if the pan has straight sides, but the math becomes more complicated if the sides of the pan are sloped (they are trapezoids). That was the hardest part of the design of the deep-dish dough calculating tool and we struggled on how to do that but after much head scratching Mike came through with a solution for doing the calculation. Of all of the dough calculating tools, the deep-dish dough calculating tool was the hardest to create and is the most unique of all of the dough calculating tools. I have not seen such a tool anywhere although Aimless Ryan (Ryan) created his own spreadsheet version. He prefers his tool over ours because, among other things, he can vary the thickness factor for both the bottom of the pan and the sides. That might be useful for a Malnati type deep-dish pizza since the dough is shaped in the pan by hand. It would not be needed for skins that are formed by machines (sheeters/rollers) and have a uniform thickness, as is done at, say, Giordano's.

There will always be cases that do not fit the above tools or methods. In those cases, you usually end up using pencil and paper and a calculator and whatever else you can find on the Internet. 

Peter

Offline Marty Runik

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #115 on: October 01, 2014, 12:12:06 PM »
Thanks again Peter.

Offline drmatt357

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #116 on: October 01, 2014, 01:45:32 PM »

It's back!  Hey Spider!! :-D
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 02:04:51 PM by drmatt357 »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #117 on: October 01, 2014, 01:51:36 PM »
It's back!  Hey Spider!! :-D
Yeah, prolly shouldn`t have said it then though.....didn`t realize Peter was on a roll discussing something that is important to some folks. Sorry Peter.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #118 on: October 01, 2014, 02:03:31 PM »
I guess that will teach me to be a Good Samaritan again.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
« Reply #119 on: October 01, 2014, 02:09:50 PM »
I guess that will teach me to be a Good Samaritan again.

Peter
C`mon Peter...you are soo much more than a Good Samaritan around here......you are the King.
Please don`t have me beheaded.  :-[
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