Author Topic: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method  (Read 1288 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Totti

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • I Love Pizza!
Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« on: February 27, 2014, 02:58:51 AM »
Hi guys,

New here to don't flame if this has probably been asked a million times. For the method of overnight bulk, and 7/8 hour ball method which of these two is the one to go to? I have a feeling the red bag?

I have a 25kg Blue bag on order, but I am trying out some methods I have been reading on the forum and need some 1kg bags for this weekend.

Cheers

Stefano


Offline Sirius

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 77
  • Location: Wangen/Allgäu Germany
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 03:04:56 PM »
Red is for longer Fermentation..For 7-8 Hours of Rise-the blue Caputo should be fine.. Not 100% sure though

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12969
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 11:13:50 PM »
Hi guys,

New here to don't flame if this has probably been asked a million times. For the method of overnight bulk, and 7/8 hour ball method which of these two is the one to go to? I have a feeling the red bag?

I have a 25kg Blue bag on order, but I am trying out some methods I have been reading on the forum and need some 1kg bags for this weekend.

Cheers

Stefano

Talking about "red" bag and "blue" bag Caputo can be confusing. With respect to your pictures, though the bag in the top picture is red, that is not what most people talking pizza refer to as "red" bag, nor is the flour in the blue bag what people refer to as "blue" bag.

Here, red bag almost always means "rinforzata" or "reinforced" and blue bag means "pizzeria."

Rinforzata may be technically the correct flour for a longer fermentation (>24 hours), however, there are countless examples of incredible pies done with long fermentations using pizzeria. I only use pizzeria and almost never ferment less than 48 hours.

If you are baking in a home oven, there are likely better choices than any Caputo flour. A malted flour will probably perform better at the lower temperatures.

This is the US Caputo website: http://caputoflour.com/  Specs on the different flour are provided.

This is red and blue bag Caputo:
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 11:15:51 PM by TXCraig1 »
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Totti

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2014, 01:44:47 AM »
Talking about "red" bag and "blue" bag Caputo can be confusing. With respect to your pictures, though the bag in the top picture is red, that is not what most people talking pizza refer to as "red" bag, nor is the flour in the blue bag what people refer to as "blue" bag.

Here, red bag almost always means "rinforzata" or "reinforced" and blue bag means "pizzeria."

Rinforzata may be technically the correct flour for a longer fermentation (>24 hours), however, there are countless examples of incredible pies done with long fermentations using pizzeria. I only use pizzeria and almost never ferment less than 48 hours.

If you are baking in a home oven, there are likely better choices than any Caputo flour. A malted flour will probably perform better at the lower temperatures.

This is the US Caputo website: http://caputoflour.com/  Specs on the different flour are provided.

This is red and blue bag Caputo:

Thanks for the response - I thought that the bags were switched for the 1kg and 25kg, thats why I asked. Crazy how/why they do that, but I guess it is typically Italian!

In terms of my oven at home, I dunno if this counts as a "home" oven, but certainly not "low temperatures" :)

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30487.0

450*c is my usual stone temp.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12969
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2014, 09:44:16 PM »
Thanks for the response - I thought that the bags were switched for the 1kg and 25kg, thats why I asked. Crazy how/why they do that, but I guess it is typically Italian!

In terms of my oven at home, I dunno if this counts as a "home" oven, but certainly not "low temperatures" :)

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30487.0

450*c is my usual stone temp.

Definitely not low temp  ;D I didn't see that post. Beautiful SF. How cool is that! I have a 120cm Mario Acunto oven in my Garage. I've laid out pretty much my entire experience with my NP oven and everything I do in these two posts:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.0
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20479.0

I'm happy to help with questions you may have as you experiment and fine tune your process.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Totti

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2014, 01:02:37 AM »
Definitely not low temp  ;D I didn't see that post. Beautiful SF. How cool is that! I have a 120cm Mario Acunto oven in my Garage. I've laid out pretty much my entire experience with my NP oven and everything I do in these two posts:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.0
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20479.0

I'm happy to help with questions you may have as you experiment and fine tune your process.

CL

You are a legend, Craig. I have based my entire day on Sunday on your posts and have been lurking (Read all the sub threads) for about a week now. On your advice from other threads, I have ordered the Ischia starter from Sourdo and eagerly await it. I tweaked my original recipe based on some volumes in the threads and am trialling a

1kg Flour (Caputo 1KG Red Bag, which says Antimo Caputo..)
625ml Water (Bottled.. San Pel Acqua Panna for what its worth)
1.5-2gm Yeast (Aim for 1.4 but scales don't do decimals so as soon as it kicks over to 2gm i stop)
29g Salt

Method was:

Dissolve Salt in Water

Add 1/3 of Flour

Mix in yeast

Slowly add in rest of flour

Take out, knead, let rest, and do the stretch and pull. Place into a lightly floured plastic pizza ball trays (That i use for the finished balls) and leave in fridge.

I rolled and am bulk fermenting in fridge for the moment. Will be 36 hours in bulk (fridge), plus 5 hours in balls (Fridge) and another 2 out of fridge. See how it goes :)

My original method was simply using 5 Stagione flour (Now I alternate to experiment which works best) using a 7 hour cold environment ferment but Im chasing the cornice that only come from the methods you detail :) I will post my results while I eagerly wait my Ischia. I am also making Calabrese chilli's as per your other thread, but in Australia they are a little easier to come by fresh (Being Calabrese helps too).

Glad you like the SF - We are wine shippers so it was easy to smuggle one over in a 20 footer.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 01:10:10 AM by Totti »

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12969
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2014, 12:44:48 PM »
I'm excited to see what you can do with that oven.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Totti

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 06:21:00 PM »
First attempt! All up a raging success - aside from a couple of nagging issues.

My oven was too hot (480-490) instead of the usual 440-460. As a result the pizzas were phenomenal as can be seen by the attached photos, but the bottom as soon as they were seated in the oven left a dark black circle of flour, which subsequently made the bottom of the pie black even if it was moved off the original position after 10 or so seconds.

What would be the usual cause of this? Am I using too much flour to lubricate the dough balls? Or was the stone simply too hot and it wouldn't have mattered either way.

On the advice from one of Melbourne's best Pizzaioli, i dumped the balls out of the trays straight into a flour tray and got both sides coated in flour. This made them a dream to get off the paddle (GI Metals) but resulted in the aforementioned blackened bases on some. I think it would have been just the result of too much heat, I had to go play golf so left the oven in the hands of the guests so i basically had an entire half of the oven lined in hot ash by the time I got home.. Way too hot.

Guess that means I'll have to give it another crack this weekend :) Going to put the 5 Stagione Blue up against the Caputo Pizzeria.

Thx

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12969
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 09:17:07 PM »
I like the look of your cheese and tomato a lot.

I like 454C (deck temp) with doming for the last 10-15 seconds (55 sec total), but I've done 35 second pies at 595C on the deck without burning the bottom - doming after the first 15 seconds.

My guess is the situation you describe is from too much flour. If you are using that much flour to open, you might want to blow some off before topping. At 490C, I would think you could stay on the original spot for at least 20-25 seconds without burning.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Totti

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2014, 01:45:38 AM »
Thanks Craig - I will have another crack at it on Sunday when I benchmark the two flours. Hopefully my Ischia arrives in the next day or two and I can give that a bash too if its ready.

It's sort of a double edged sword for me. If I don't put enough flour I struggle to get them off the paddle, but too much flour causes the above problem. I guess I will just have to keep practising!!


Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12969
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 08:16:47 PM »
Are you forming and topping on the peel, dragging the topped pie onto the peel, or shooting the peel under the topped pie prior to launching?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Totti

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 11:37:19 PM »
Are you forming and topping on the peel, dragging the topped pie onto the peel, or shooting the peel under the topped pie prior to launching?

At the moment topping on the peel, as dragging topped pie onto the peel causes some logistics problems most of the time. Shooting is probably the ideal outcome? Scared to mangle it though.. Tips?

I top on the peel, and give it a few jiggles to get the pie nice and loose then launch it. Black bottom though.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 11:41:29 PM by Totti »

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12969
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2014, 09:12:27 PM »
At the moment topping on the peel, as dragging topped pie onto the peel causes some logistics problems most of the time. Shooting is probably the ideal outcome? Scared to mangle it though.. Tips?

I top on the peel, and give it a few jiggles to get the pie nice and loose then launch it. Black bottom though.

Topping on the peel is probably your main culprit. You need a lot more flour when you let the dough sit there for a time. If you are using a perforated peel, it's even worse and the pie wants to settle into the holes.

Top on the counter, give the peel light dusting of flour, lift up the edge of the pie just a bit, and shoot the peel under it. Give it a quick stretch on the peel to shape and then launch. Start with more flour than you need on the counter and work your way down. You will be surprised how easy this is.

I would try to avoid too much shaking on the peel as it will make your pie contract in diameter. Stick it in the oven and rip it out from under the pie. Just be sure the pie isn't hanging over the back edge of the peel. That doesn't end well.

Make some extra dough and practice on a bunch of marinara pies.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Totti

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Which Caputo flour for the bulk / ball method
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2014, 01:24:08 AM »
Thanks Craig. I have invited some more guinea pigs around for chow on friday - win win situation for them and us both. 18 pies should do it. Bulk ferment going in the cellar tonight as I noted your temperatures and thought the fridge might be a bit cold? Cellar will give a solid 15-17c temp.


 

pizzapan