Author Topic: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D  (Read 672 times)

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Offline TheRailroadBulls

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Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« on: March 14, 2014, 11:08:20 AM »
So, unexpectedly (I am currently saving money/in school for a pizza shop), a liquor store owner in my town offered to let me open up business in his establishment... which already has all the nessecary equipment to make pizzas. We are going there today to check out his equipment, and I am pretty comfortable with my knowledge level to believe that I can take care of any questions I (or he..) could have. HOWEVER... one thing that's been weighing heavy on my mind is that I am NOT currently able to make consistent dough. I like this at home cause that means everythings always a liiiitttle bit different, but I know most places are looking for uniformity... but I am unfamiliar with how to find proper hydration levels in what i'm making. I'm shooting for 65%, which I know is pretty standard, so i'm basically just trying to figure out how much water to add to a 25 lb bag (Bouncer HG) of flour. Last time I made a full 25lb batch I made it in the stand-up at work, and I cut their water levels (they make 50 lbs at a time) in half.... and the consistency is ok... but it's not exactly what I am/was looking for. The crumb was much to airy and rose to an almost comic level in the oven (500 on lowest rack in home oven. In the oven at work, which is a Middeby Marshall PS360 set to 502 at 7:10, if that matters, it's a liiittle better. But, when i'm at work I also run it through the sheeter twice AND dock and stretch it). So yeah... i'm providing this all as a "just in case" but basically what I need to know is how much water to add to make 65% AND how you calculate that number. I've read about it online and I am just NOT getting it.

Also, i'm sorry, i'm SURE this was covered somewhere else in the forum, but like I said, i'm going to check that place out TODAY and want to be prepared for any questions he has to ask.... and i'm unsure how knowledgeable he is so I want to have ALL info available. Usually i'd read through it all, but I am at school right now, work tonight, and have to goto that place in between so I simply don't have time. I'm in typing class right now which is the only reason I can even get away with this!!! haha ;D >:D :chef: :pizza:
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2014, 11:30:18 AM »
65% of 25 lbs of flour is 16.25 lbs.

65% hydration when using 25 lbs of flour = 16.25 lbs of water.

Offline GotRocks

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Re: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2014, 12:08:38 PM »
That seems really high for hydration IMO
(from my experience in a lower volume commercial situation)

With my experiments over these last few months, 1/10th of a percent  either way on hydration can make a very marked difference in your finished product, they way it handles, and its properties during retarding.

I purchased a used, price calculating, printing,  Hobart Deli scale with a 30# capacity, it has two spots east of the decimal point. I paid less than $100.00USD for it.
 We do our dough with our flour weight at 10 or 20 pounds and make it daily with a 48 hour rest, minimum,  Then stretch it , top it,  out of the cooler without letting it warm up.
This weighing procedure assures me that there are zero variances in weights, so my only variances are ambient temps & flour temps. And I use water at or below 40 degrees.
I also use a spiral mixer with a timer on it for automated shutdown, I mix for 14 minutes.
If you want to really nail things dead on, there is a formula where you check ambient temps, flour temps, add in the "Friction Factor" of your mixer, and use different water temps to compensate. If you need water colder than 32F, you add a certain weight of ice to your water weight (Dunkin Donuts does this)
I do not know the formula, or I'd share it here  If someone does have that formula, could you please share it?

I used to add my dry, half the water, let mix for 4 minutes, add remaining water, then oil. I now add all my liquids at once, and found an even better dough to work with for what I wanted in my final product.

So even the most minimal changes in mixing procedure can turn out very remarkable differences even if all your measurements are exactly the same. So play with it, see what comes out best for your liking, then be solid on your procedures so it is repeatable.

I posted my formula in another thread in this forum, feel free to try it, But I also cut my HG flour (Bouncer, Bromated) with 25% APF, without the APF in it, I did not like the finished product even though it was very workable dough,
Here it is;
I dropped my hydration down to 61.5% instead of 63% because it was too tacky to work with,  at 60% , I did not like the finished product, it lacked the crispness I like


Hand tossed;
Flour: 100.00%
          (75.00%   Bouncer & 25.00% APF)
   Salt: 1.75%   
   Sugar: 2.00%   
   Instant Yeast: .50%   
   Vegetable Oil: 3.00%   
   Water: 63.00%
Retard for 48 hours minimum, and I see a shelf life of at least 5-6 days before it blows out, and when it does, we do herbed crusts for a treat. (this also turns our die hard BBQ  customers on to our pizza more)

Scale at 1oz per inch of pizza diameter
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2014, 12:28:43 PM »
Scale at 1oz per inch of pizza diameter

That won't work. The area of a circle doesn't work that way. Every inch you add to a pizza skin requires more dough than the previous inch.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2014, 02:29:41 PM »
If you want to really nail things dead on, there is a formula where you check ambient temps, flour temps, add in the "Friction Factor" of your mixer, and use different water temps to compensate. If you need water colder than 32F, you add a certain weight of ice to your water weight (Dunkin Donuts does this)
I do not know the formula, or I'd share it here  If someone does have that formula, could you please share it?

I think this is the article: http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml

Peter

Offline GotRocks

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Re: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2014, 02:40:02 PM »
That won't work. The area of a circle doesn't work that way. Every inch you add to a pizza skin requires more dough than the previous inch.

Okay, I shared what we do.
We use 12oz & 16oz  respectively for our 12" & 16" pies, and it has been working out great for us.
Would you like to explain your theory, and what scaling a hand stretched dough should be for our sizes?
A skinny cook is not to be trusted!

Offline dmckean44

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Re: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2014, 02:53:44 PM »
Okay, I shared what we do.
We use 12oz & 16oz  respectively for our 12" & 16" pies, and it has been working out great for us.
Would you like to explain your theory, and what scaling a hand stretched dough should be for our sizes?

Using the dough calculation tools on this site, your twelve inch pie has a thickness factor of .17 vs. .127 thickness factor for your sixteen inch pies. That's quite a difference. If you wanted your 12" and 16" pies to be the same you would need to use 21.5 ounces of dough for a 16" pie.

Online mitchjg

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Re: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2014, 03:13:39 PM »
Okay, I shared what we do.
We use 12oz & 16oz  respectively for our 12" & 16" pies, and it has been working out great for us.
Would you like to explain your theory, and what scaling a hand stretched dough should be for our sizes?

GotRocks:

This is not a theory, it is math. 

The amount of dough you use is directly proportional to the area of the surface of the dough (there could be minor variance related to the relative size of the rim), assuming you want both pies to be the same thickness.

The area of a circle is derived from the formula Area= (Pi) *( R squared).  Pi is = 3.14 (to two decimal places).  R, being the radius of the circle, is 6 inches and 8 inches, respectively (the radius being 1/2 the diameter).

So, the area of the 12 inch pie = 3.14* 6 *6 = 113
The area of the 16 inch pie = 3.14 * 8 * 8 = 201

201 / 113 = 1.78.

Therefore you need 78% more dough for the 16 inch pie than the 12 inch pie.  So, if you use 12 ounces for the 12 inch pie (sounds like a lot to me), then you need 21.4 ounces of the 16 (differences from the 21.5 from dmckean44 simply due to roundoff somewhere along the way).

- Mitch

PS Timing is everything - Today is "Pi Day" (3.14)  8)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 09:12:45 PM by mitchjg »

Offline GotRocks

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Re: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2014, 10:34:46 PM »
GotRocks:

This is not a theory, it is math. 

The amount of dough you use is directly proportional to the area of the surface of the dough (there could be minor variance related to the relative size of the rim), assuming you want both pies to be the same thickness.

The area of a circle is derived from the formula Area= (Pi) *( R squared).  Pi is = 3.14 (to two decimal places).  R, being the radius of the circle, is 6 inches and 8 inches, respectively (the radius being 1/2 the diameter).

So, the area of the 12 inch pie = 3.14* 6 *6 = 113
The area of the 16 inch pie = 3.14 * 8 * 8 = 201

201 / 113 = 1.78.

Therefore you need 78% more dough for the 16 inch pie than the 12 inch pie.  So, if you use 12 ounces for the 12 inch pie (sounds like a lot to me), then you need 21.4 ounces of the 16 (differences from the 21.5 from dmckean44 simply due to roundoff somewhere along the way).

- Mitch

PS Timing is everything - Today is "Pi Day" (3.14)  8)


I see the math, and it makes sense,
But , is that for a pizza skin that is destined to go through a sheeter, with the goal of having the exact same thickness from edge to edge?
Because we are hand stretching and tossing, and I have not had any noticeable variance from large to small that is worth being concerned about.
A skinny cook is not to be trusted!

Online mitchjg

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Re: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2014, 10:56:34 PM »
A 16 inch using 78% more dough than a 12 inch pie would be the correct number if you wanted the same thickness in both pies.  78% more may not be the exact number since I can imagine that the rim size variances could change the number somewhat.

On the other hand, using one ounce per inch is going to make the 12 inch one 34% (.17/.127) thicker than the 16 inch pie.  That is a lot and it seems doubtful to me that hand stretching or the lack of perfect uniform thickness matters with that big a difference.

What size pies are you making?  Are you noticing differences in the thickness?  Maybe that is what you want and like.


Offline dmckean44

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Re: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2014, 11:23:06 PM »

I see the math, and it makes sense,
But , is that for a pizza skin that is destined to go through a sheeter, with the goal of having the exact same thickness from edge to edge?
Because we are hand stretching and tossing, and I have not had any noticeable variance from large to small that is worth being concerned about.

Unless you had a gigantic rim on your 12 inch pie and zero rim on your 16 inch, it's the right number.

Offline TheRailroadBulls

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Re: Hello. Someone please shoot me in the face! :-D
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2014, 10:46:48 AM »
hahaha you guys are intense.

a) I LOVE this. I want to point that out. The knowledge level of the makers on this site is incredible and I consider it a valuable resource.

b) That said, I picture you guys standing over your mixer with a water dropper *drop*.....*drop* "CRAP! I put in two drops instead of one! Close down the shop boys.... this is NOT ok!"

 :-D
"Conveyor ovens make McPizza." - Scott123