Author Topic: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.  (Read 808 times)

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Offline jsaras

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Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« on: March 02, 2014, 07:41:16 PM »
I used an 88.3%/11.7% blend of Pendleton Power Flour and Trader Joe's All Purpose Flour.  The total formula was:

Flour - 100%
Water - 73%
Salt - 2%
Oil - 4%
Calmoldi starter -2%  TF= 0.138

Mixed for a total of 4 minutes in a KA mixer.  3 stretch and folds an hour later.  Fermented for 26 hours at 70 degrees.  Baked at 500 for 15 minutes.

I had the best rise in the bowl that I ever had with any starter. Tthe pizza had open crumb structure (evident in the areas after taking bites, not on the edges where they were cut...why is that?), but not as dramatic as many of the examples by others who do this style well.

The crust had too much chew.  A bit too tough.  I think I need more AP flour in the blend and may take the hydration up a bit.  Any suggestions to improve it are welcome.

Topped with applewood smoked green olives marinated in white wine, Gallo uncured natural salami, fresh mozzarella, basil pesto and my tomato sauce.


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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2014, 07:25:17 AM »
Jonas,

Did you partake the skin by any chance?

Peter

Offline jsaras

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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2014, 08:59:23 AM »
No, I did not. 
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2014, 10:20:19 AM »
Jonas,

I realize that you posted on the Sicilian board but the reason I asked you whether you parbaked the crust is because I have problems baking pizzas in my standard builder's grade electric oven with its baking temperature range of about 500-525 degrees F whenever the hydration gets to around 65%, based on a high protein flour. In fact, in some cases, I have elected to use a sheet of parchment paper to prevent the pizza from sticking to a peel. But either way, in my oven, it is hard to get a highly hydrated dough to achieve a good oven spring. It is like trying to raise a very wet dish sponge. Using a cutter pan or something similar avoids potential sticking problems associated with the use of a peel but the downside is that the pan has to get up to temperature before the pizza can bake. This slow and gradual heating of the pan will often minimize the oven spring. Also, in your case, you are using a fair amount of dough (based on a thickness factor of 0.138) which, together with sauce, cheese and toppings, is further likely to result in reduced oven spring at home oven bake temperatures simply because of the increased mass and the need for a long bake time to cook everything so that you don't end up with pasty or undercooked dough. And if you bake the pizza for too a long time to be sure that everything is fully cooked, the crust can end up on the dry and dense side, although the use of oil in the dough at 4% will mitigate against that to a small degree.

A while back, the above subject came up in a thread by member sub where the use of a very high hydration was discussed, starting with Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23668.msg240378#msg240378. As you can see from the posts that ensued, it turned out that the skin was parbaked with just sauce, for about 9 minutes, with the toppings being added later. This was in the context of an oven temperature of 250 degrees C, or 482 degrees F.

Ideally, the best oven spring seems to come from using very high oven temperatures, much like exists with very high oven temperatures that are used to bake Neapolitan style pizzas, where there is a big burst of energy that hits the unbaked pizza as soon as it hits the oven. Sometimes I will see photos of pizzas that have exceptional oven spring and a nice open and airy crumb and a lightness to the crust and wonder how that was achieved. Often the answer was that the ovens used could deliver an awful lot of heat, usually considerably more than the heat that my oven can deliver. An example of this can be seen in the outstanding pizzas that Johnny the Gent makes using high hydration values, with a good example being shown at Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27294.msg304639#msg304639. From what Johnny has previously reported, he uses a soapstone stone and an oven that can deliver a temperature of around 300 degrees F (572 degrees F) although he suspects that his oven may run hotter than that (see Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27294.msg282326#msg282326).

I guess what all of my discussion is leading to is that if you would like to continue using a high hydration dough with your standard home oven, you might consider prebaking the crust since sub's work seems to suggest that you can achieve a nice open and airy and tender crust and crumb at home oven temperatures if the skin is prebaked. You would perhaps even do better if you didn't use a pan but I realize that you are making a Sicilian-style pizza that calls for use of a pan of some sort.

Peter

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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2014, 11:35:03 AM »
Jonas,

I don't know if this will help you, but when I first started the Two Bill's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.0 the first pizza did turn out decent in crumb structure.  Peter figured out what percentages what formulation for that pizza at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg218034#msg218034  I since have gone on to a higher TF, a higher hydration and using a different flour.  I don't know how those pizzas would have turned out with a starter though.

Did you temper your dough in the pan? 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2014, 11:46:51 AM »
Did you temper your dough in the pan? 
Norma,

That is a good point that I forgot to mention. Sicilian style doughs are very often tempered before dressing or prebaking. Also, bromated flours are often used to make Sicilian style doughs because the bromates allow the skins to retain their height and volume just prior to dressing or prebaking.

Peter

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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2014, 12:09:14 PM »
Norma,

That is a good point that I forgot to mention. Sicilian style doughs are very often tempered before dressing or prebaking. Also, bromated flours are often used to make Sicilian style doughs because the bromates allow the skins to retain their height and volume just prior to dressing or prebaking.

Peter

Peter,

Maybe Craig's thread might help Jonas since Craig did use a preferment, oil, high hydration and tempered in his pans too.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21992.0

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2014, 12:38:09 PM »
Peter,

Maybe Craig's thread might help Jonas since Craig did use a preferment, oil, high hydration and tempered in his pans too.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21992.0

Norma
Norma,

Also a very good point. Craig used a 550F oven temperature and in some cases he let the dough proof in the pan but his thickness factors were close to what Jonas used. Also, Craig was using a blue steel pan with good heat transfer properties. But the thread is still definitely worth reading, particularly since some of his dough formulations used a natural leavening and other ingredients in amounts similar to what Jonas used.

Peter

Offline jsaras

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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2014, 12:58:37 PM »
Proofing in the pan and pre-baking/par-baking are all good avenues to pursue.  The pre-baking/par-baking aspect isn't made clear in Bonci's book.  He employed that technique, but it always seemed to be when he was cooking his exotic topping combinations on the stove top or leaving them uncooked. 

Sometimes it's the obvious detail that's missed ;-D
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 06:21:37 PM by jsaras »
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Online norma427

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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2014, 06:08:15 PM »
Jonas,

Maybe this thread might help you see what happened to a dough that was made in a pan.  If you just look through the photos you will be able to see I was not able to make the same looking crumb or bottom crust when changing sizes of pans.  This is that thread is you are interested.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29378.0 The thread only shows the problems with the same dough in different size pans and also the different tempering methods used.

I also worked on trying to make a Pizzarium style pizza in two threads for a considerable amount of time.  In the end I only had one good attempt that I thought really might qualify for a pizzarium style pizza.   

Best of luck to you in creating what you would like.

Norma
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Offline jsaras

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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 06:23:15 PM »
Hi Norma,

I too once made a Pizzarium dough that looked virtually identical to yours.  I used IDY and Gold Medal Bread Flour that time and a hydration of 75 or 80%.

It's just one of those mysteries!
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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 06:38:56 PM »
Hi Norma,

I too once made a Pizzarium dough that looked virtually identical to yours.  I used IDY and Gold Medal Bread Flour that time and a hydration of 75 or 80%.

It's just one of those mysteries!

Jonas,

I did not recall about your Pizzarium pizza that looked like mine.  I gave up on that style for little while but might go back to it again sometime.  I think a Pizzarium style dough and pie are hard to achieve.   :-D  My hat is off to members that did achieve that style!

You are so right that it is one of those mysteries.

Norma
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Offline JimmyG

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Re: Room Temp Ferment Pizzarium Pizza w AP+HG flour blend.
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2014, 01:03:20 AM »
Jonas,
A few ideas that may help tenderize your dough a bit and bring back some spring. Bonci is using a mixture of mostly bolted mixed grain flour, eg. eikhorn, semolina, spelt, etc which have a higher protein content but also a lower gluten content. Adding in 10-20% of these flours (finely sifted) should tenderize and boost the flavor of your crust. Also, at least if the videos are any indication, Bonci adds in his oil during the primary mixing process, which also inhibits overall gluten formation in the dough. Just some thoughts to consider.
Regarding hole structure and height, when working with higher hydration doughs, the weight of the toppings play a pivotal role in crust thickness. Bake your pie naked, or with a minimal amount of sauce on it till fully baked, cut off a slice, top and refire in the oven... Same way Bonci does it. Also when forming your dough, crease along the outside perimeter of the dough, while lightly manipulating the center of the dough for shaping. This creates a balloon effect in the dough offering the fluffy big holes Bonci is known for. Hopefully this should aid you in bringing back your tender dough and large holes.
Jim
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