A question about yeast and it's affect on Caputo 00

[rscox62]

Even though I have only made a few posts/reply I have been studying this forum for well over a year.
I have made over 200 Lehman's KASL on Pete-zza outline and it has been a tasty and successful venture
until I decided to take the Caputo Plunge about a month ago with a 10lb bag from Penn Mac.

I have made five sucessful Neapolitan Style pizza's where I was just using a pinch of IDY on a one day retardation and a four hour counter rise with success. The dough balls where still tight prior to hand stretching.

Then I decided to start doing a three day retardation on the dough and figure it would require and least a 1/4 tsp of IDY so the sugar wouldn't be exhausted.

What got me curios is why the dough balls where tight when I oiled them and put them in the fridge and then three days later when I went to knead them before a counter rise the dough balls just got
all wet and sticky and difficult to handle where I have to used a bunch of bench flour to get them stable.
All dough balls where 60% hydrated and autolysed.

So that's when I figure that the problem may have started when I increased the amount of IDY and the length of retardation. I figured that the length of retardation my have created more moisture for the Caputo which seems to be sensitive to moisture and that increase in IDY may have made the dough to relax to work with and that is why it was all wet and sticky.

This seemed logical to me until it dawned on me that I never had this problem with KASL. I know KASL is a high gluten
flour but isn't Caputo Pizzeria up there as well.


I guest my question is that am I using to much IDY (1/4 tsp) in a three day retardation in the fridge for Caputo.




Thanks

[Pete-zza]

rscox62,

You didn't indicate what dough batch sizes you have been using, but I suspect that you used a bit too much yeast and too long a fermentation time. Usually when you want to increase the fermentation time, you add a bit of sugar, not more yeast. Using more yeast just eats up more of the sugar, both the sugar extracted from the starch by the action of enzymes as well as any added sugar. I might mention that the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is not intended to be used with sugar or cold fermentation, although there are some pizza operators in the U.S. who have been using cold fermentation with that flour. In my reading of posts at the Italian pizza forum, I have even seen signs of some people using cold fermentation in Italy, which I am sure pizzanapoletana will tell us is highly uncharacteristic of the authentic Neapolitan style and not a practice that he would endorse. In effect, what you are trying to do is something for which the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour was arguably not designed or intended. It would also be improper to compare the Caputo 00 flour with the KASL flour. The two flours and their specifications are entirely different and the two flours behave differently.

All that aside, what I believe caused the wetness of the dough was the action of enzymes, mainly the protease enzymes, that attack the gluten in the dough and degrade it to the point of softness. It is also common under the circumstances for water to be released from the dough. Given sufficient time, these two factors combined can yield a dough that is slack, wet, soft and difficult to handle without adding more flour. Doing the latter is not a good idea and is to be avoided as much as possible since adding raw flour at this point can result in a bitter crust and a lighter colored bottom crust and a  poorer bake. Unfortunately, as you discovered, you sometimes don't have any other option at that point. I suppose it's also possible that your hydration level was a bit too high although I have been using close to 62% recently with little problem.

In your case, if you want to continue to experiment with cold fermentation, next time you might use less yeast and a shorter period of cold fermentation. With proper control of all the factors that govern the window of usability of the dough, I think it is possible to get three days out of the dough.

Peter

[pizzanapoletana]

rscox62,

 In my reading of posts at the Italian pizza forum, I have even seen signs of some people using cold fermentation in Italy, which I am sure pizzanapoletana will tell us is highly uncharacteristic of the authentic Neapolitan style and not a practice that he would endorse.

Peter

Pizza in Italy doesn't mean Neapolitan Style. Indeed some pizzeria in the center/north use cold fermentation with flours with W 380-450 and different enzymes characteristics. One of my earliest post, was about why people do cold fermentation when there is not need for.... please, please study the effect of cold temperature on yeast, bacteria and enzymes and then decide when, how and for how long apply cold fermentation.

All that aside, what I believe caused the wetness of the dough was the action of enzymes, mainly the protease enzymes, that attack the gluten in the dough and degrade it to the point of softness. It is also common under the circumstances for water to be released from the dough.

Peter

Indeed depending on the strenght of the flour and activity of enzymes (as well as other factors), at some point there will be some water released from the dough, as well as Peter mentioned, the action of protease enzymes will break the gluten bond which wil then release the water trapped in it.

[Pete-zza]

Marco,

I intentionally did not say Naples because I couldn't tell from the translations of the posts on the Italian pizza forum where the posters were making their pizza doughs. However, I was somewhat surprised by the extent of use of cold fermentation, even with the Caputo flour.

Peter

[pizzanapoletana]

Peter

You did not say Naples, but to me could be confusing when then mention that is "uncharacteristic of the authentic Neapolitan style". Also I have strong scientific evidence and material results to make my choices.

Anyway, I have been writing on that Italian forum for over 3 years and cannot remeber discussing cold fermentation with Caputo other then putting the left over dough in the fridge. Some "homebakers" or not experienced people may have brought the question up but I would not say " the extent of use of cold fermentation, even with the Caputo flour"

Please do post the link to the exact page so I can have my own italian reading of it.

Ciao

[rscox62]

Pete-zza and pizzanapoletana

Thanks for sharing your knowledge with me.

[Pete-zza]

Marco,

My words were all intentional but what I was trying to say is that if someone in Italy outside of Naples were to use cold fermentation with a 00 flour, doing so would not be characteristic of the way authentic Neapolitan pizzas are produced in Naples.

As far as using cold fermentation with the Caputo 00 flour is concerned, you were not one of the posters on the Italian forum I was referring to. In fact, I would have been shocked if you suggested cold fermentation with the Caputo 00 flour because I already know your views on this matter and how strongly you hold those views. I can only recall one instance on this forum where you talked about using the refrigerator and it was in the context you mentioned. I believe member sumeri also confirmed your position when I once asked him if doughs in Naples were ever cold fermented by professionals. When I read the Italian posts about using cold fermentation, I concluded that the posters may have either been outside of Naples or they were possibly home pizza makers or experimenters.  Just as with this forum, it is sometimes hard to tell who the posters are (e.g., professional or non-professional) or where they come from, and especially so with the translations that are produced by the online translators.

I will see if I can find an example of an Italian post discussing the cold fermentation of a Caputo dough.

Peter

[pizzanapoletana]

I spent the last 30 minutes searching the italian forum. The only posts about cold fermentation by professionals with caputo were referred to experiment to prove that to obtain a similar product to the regular room temperature one, it was necessary to change proportions (flour/water/salt/yeast) and increase the times (up to 2-3 times).
 This has always been my line: the experience need to dictate what to do with the materials supplied. Why go all the troubles of a cold fermentation when you can obtain a better product, faster, at room temperature. Some professional have also the methodology dictated from their shift at work..... I could tell you to use it if your situation dictate so, but I would need to give you a different "recipe", with different timing and anyway different taste

Again let's not confuse 00 flours as one and only type.. We can have 00 grade flours stronger then your Stong Flour or bread flour. 00 is one grading and also indicate the possibility to obtain a smoother dough, but cannot be generalised as well as you can have 00 flour designed to make frollini (shortcrust pastry) to 00 designed to make the thinnest filo pastry with w450.

[Pete-zza]

Marco,

Since I couldn't remember specifically where I read the Italian posts involving Caputo flour and the refrigerator, I went back to the Italian forum and did a search using the two terms "Caputo" and "frigo". There were quite a few "hits" so it took me a while to go through them all (one at a time using the Google translator). It was clear that many of the posts were from home pizza makers and experimenters and often the Caputo Red flour was used instead of the Caputo Pizzeria, and sometimes Manitoba/U.S. flour was added. Yet, even though the translations are hard to comprehend, there is a fair amount of discussion involving use of Caputo flour and refrigeration. I have always felt that the reason cold fermentation of Caputo doughs is used by some pizza operators in the U.S. (like A16) is because of dough inventory creation and management, and to avoid having to either throw away room temperature fermented dough at the end of the day or else find a way of incorporating some of the leftover dough into the next batch (if that is even an option). Using the refrigerator (cooler) gives a measure of control over the process, and that thought appeared in some of the Italian posts.

Here is a sampling of what I found:

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.Asp?ID=831 (the poster may be from the U.S.)
http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.Asp?ID=2110
http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.Asp?ID=12734
http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.Asp?ID=15401
http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.Asp?ID=15654
http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.Asp?ID=15758
http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.Asp?ID=16698
http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.Asp?ID=27100

I'm sure you will get far more out of these posts than I did.

BTW, I am not in disagreement with what you say. I, too, think that a room temperature fermented dough produces better overall results and especially when a natural preferment is used. But not everyone is equipped to go that way and it is for that reason that there is demand for cold fermented Caputo doughs.

Peter

[pizzanapoletana]

All the post that you covered were not relevant from my point of view:

Andrea use to write from the US and never made a pizza that could be called neapolitan.

Most of the other post were general talks about inexperienced people on what they were experimenting on... one even said that the fridge was good because it helped to make tougher dough balls....

I belive that proper cold fermentation is quite complicate to do and become more difficult to obtain good results... If you really want to use it then forget about any "recipe" or methodology developed for room temperature as it won't work in the fridge. Caputo pizzeria was studied for room temperature and all the parameter in the technical data just show that. If you would like to obtain a good dough in the fridge, then you need to develop a dough with a flour of different enzymatic activity using different salt quantity and different hydration. If you put my regular dough (not the one that I have posted on this forum, but the one I realy work with) in the fridge, I will need to take it 3-4 days later to be ready....

[Pete-zza]

Marco,

Thank you for reviewing the posts. I suspected that they would not be relevant to what you recommend as a strong advocate of the authentic Neapolitan style, but they do point out that there are people out there who are trying to adapt the Caputo Pizzeria (and related) flours to a cold fermentation protocol, just as A16 is attempting to do in the U.S. and was the predicate for the entire A16 thread on this forum.

Apparently the same objective exists with the San Felice flour which, on the surface, looks to be a better candidate for a cold fermentation approach than the Caputo Pizzeria flour because it appears to be a somewhat stronger flour and also because of its higher amylase performance (lower falling number) and a wider overall W range. It should also tolerate a somewhat higher hydration ratio, which should also speed up the enzyme performance. I would think that the greater amylase characteristic of the San Felice flour should help compensate for the fact that refrigeration does slow down some of the normal amylase activity. To be sure, other changes (e.g., type and amount of leavening agent and salt levels) will have to be considered based on the desired length of fermentation and window of utilization of the dough.

If the above analysis is in the ballpark, it occurs to me that rscox62 might be able to add a bit of his KASL (which is a malted flour) to the Caputo Pizzeria flour, and to adjust the amounts of yeast, water, water temperature, and salt to achieve the desired window of usability of the dough.

Peter

[pizzanapoletana]

Peter,

Just to put this whole discussion in context:

The italian forum we are talking about is often very technical and scientific. In there, we often cover things like curve of sugar, amilasse activity, all the stages of starch breakdown etc... Even simple home bakers, most often, are fluent with this terminology and understanding. Contrary of whay you have understood, maybe due to the automatic traslators, the efforts were directed at actually see with their own eyes what we had explained in theory. The results were for people to agree with the theory by seeing with their own eyes. I believe A16 work is different because they are trying to make a Pizza Napoletana using the fridge by using the wrong materials, quantity and time.


About the San Felice flour, you have made some good observations, but let's start clarifying that there is not such a thing as wider W range. If your assuption was true it meant that you could get a bag with W220 and a week later a bag with W280.... that will need two different methodology, but you would not know that, as they do not supply a technical data sheet with each bag/batch.
San Felice Pizzeria is a stronger flour with the w more in the higher range of what their data show.

You also often focus on exausting sugars... Try to go 48 hours at room temperature, with 3 punch down, the last after 44 hours and let me know if doesn't rise again...................

[Pete-zza]

Marco,

Thank you for clarifying the topic.

I have found it interesting that some of the recent reviews of A16 have been less than flattering, which raises anew the question of whether they are doing the right things with the Caputo flour. However, Luzzo's seems to be achieving success with its use of cold fermentation with the San Felice flour. Maybe that success is attributable at least in part to the San Felice flour being a better choice for cold fermented dough than the Caputo dough.

When I referred to the broad range of W for the San Felice flour, I was expressing more the way that San Felice specifies the W value than the actual flour itself. San Felice specifies that the flour has a W rating of 200-300. I am used to seeing much smaller ranges, like 240-260. Since the San Felice flour is milled from a combination of national grains and imported U.S. grains (or possibly Canadian grains), I wondered whether the stated range of 200-300 was intended to embrace the respective W values that come from milling both the national grains and the imported grains. Or possibly because San Felice wants to show in its marketing of the flour that it falls within the specifications promulgated by the Italian 2004 doctrinaire document.

As far as the sugar is concerned, you convinced me long ago that it is hard to deplete sugar in the flour under normal circumstances. In fact, if memory serves me correct, I believe you once indicated that it would take something like 5% yeast for sugar exhaustion to become an issue. But you are correct that I often do speak about sugar exhaustion. Sometimes it is in the context of the contribution of sugar to color in the finished crust, but it is also often in the context of what I personally believe to be the use of unnecessarily large amounts of yeast. Most people seem to have a need to see a dough rise right before their eyes and, if it doesn't or it is less than a double, they become concerned that something is wrong and that they will have poor oven spring. However, I believe that there is a great amount of evidence to suggest that doughs can be successfully made with very small amounts of yeast, whether commercial yeast or natural cultures, and with good oven spring and without running out of sugar. There is a possibility of running out of sugar at some point but, in my experience, the likelihood goes up in direct proportion to the amount of yeast used. It's like putting a bunch of kids around a table with their favorite food on it. The more kids there are, the faster the food will disappear. But I can't say that I have had much success in convincing many people that less can be better. People want their pizzas in a hurry, and the best way to achieve this is to use a lot of yeast.

Peter

[pizzanapoletana]

Peter,

It all make sense in your post but the fact that as far as I know (and I was the one pointing out Luzzo's to the forum) he doesn't make a cold fermentation.
it rather use the fridge as a preserving tools.....

Ciao

[Pete-zza]

Marco,

Thanks for the clarification.

Peter

[scott r]

I think I am the poster that mentioned the fridge being involved with the Luzzo dough. 

I have come to the conclusion that the pizzaiolo at Luzzo's was not totally telling me everything there is to know about how their dough is made, and in some cases even gave me mis information.  This could have been because of a language barrier, as I don't think they were intentionally trying to fool me.  Also, I was not talking to the owner.  It is probable that the pizzaiolo I was talking to is not the person who makes the dough.

I believe that Marco got the real scoop on their process, and not me.